That was a heart wrenching post. Your bf is a very complex man with a lot of demons. As much as he "fogs you" when he feels conflicted or anxious he probably "fogs" himself. I have no words of advice but I wonder if it would do you good to plan a little vacation with some girlfriends or something?
Thank you all so much for those thoughtful responses. I really appreciate it!
Lou, thanks for plowing through the books I recommend! Hope you feel better.
Hairdog, thanks for the hugs. Yes, my fingers were definitely aching after I posted that (but I guess Tolstoy’s fingers ached, too, huh?) I could see bf’s point, too, that it seemed like I was making a rule. I couldn’t figure out how else to put it. As I said to cobra, he kicks into survival mode very quickly (as I think Mrs. Hairdog does, too). (Hope you’ve posted an update since she got back from her visit with her dad.)
Goodguy—my, you are one heckuva articulate fellow! Thanks for your comments, and I think you’re right. I operate way too much in this sitch from my “thinking” place instead of from my gut. My gut says one thing, but my mind won’t allow it unless I can make sense out of it. But some things you can’t make sense out of.
Cobra, last things first. I’m not missing my late husband. Truly. Our relationship was also a SSM. Next month it will be six years since he died. Sometimes I miss being in A relationship with a rational, functional person. My husband's health issues ate us alive, and I believe I have truly adjusted to the loss. I believe in afterlife and I am confident he has moved on to the next stage of life, and that I will see him again. I wonder what I’ve said to make you think I’m pining for him?
We had guests for dinner last night—a couple that I don’t know very well, the guy is a friend of bf’s. At least I DIDN’T know them well—I do now. While the guys were out surveying the property, the wife and I got to talking. We had one of those “instant bonding” experiences that women sometimes do—we just connected deeply right away. I don’t know how it came up, but she was in an SSM for 18 years, and as I described bf’s personality and quirks, she kept saying over and over again, “That’s just the way my ex was.” He was also extremely good looking, a great singer, a substance abuser. In fact the wife used to go to the same alanon meetings that I went to three times a week! We probably saw each other there, but of course, I didn’t know her yet. She finally left him and married the new guy last year. She said, “Omigod, it’s so different being in a R with an adult. And he loves sex just as much as I do. Every couple of days, I just get to needing him, but he’d gladly do it every day.” This was a woman who Did Without for 18 years… She said a therapist had told her that her ex was an adolescent, and her new H is an adult. It’s funny because one of the very first things I noticed about my bf and commented to a friend was that he had a very adolescent quality… The evening went very well. I love that her H is a musician, he attends AA regularly, and he is an adult. Just the kind of friend my bf needs. It’s so rare in my experience to have “couple” friends where both of YOU like both of THEM.
This brings me to bf’s mom. Cobra, I believe you are correct. They are very enmeshed. Something I also noticed the very first time I met her (three months after I met him). BUT here’s the thing. He’s an only child. His mom is wealthy. He is her only heir. She’s 88. He cannot find decent employment because of two felony (drug) convictions from 20+ years ago. In our state those convictions can never be expunged. He doesn’t have a college degree—flunked out due to drugs back in the early 70’s. He CANNOT become financially independent at this stage in his life-- he'll be 56 in September. And he is part of his mom’s corporation (the bar). In fact, his name is on the liquor license. They are financially intermingled. We both live very modestly. His house and his vehicles are paid for. When she goes, he will not have to work. He will be able to do what he has always wanted to do, namely farm and garden full time. (And ever so ironically, last night while the friends were here, my elderly neighbor called to see if I was interested in buying his house and property that are right next door to mine—about seven acres. Yes, I very much am, but even more, my bf’s mother would gladly buy that for him, and probably pay cash. She actually wants to BUILD him a house.)
So, yes, he needs to disengage, but I think he needs to avail himself of the financial resources that are here. His mom has no one else to spend the money on or lavish her love and attention on. When they interact, he does keep the upper hand. He doesn’t jump when she calls, but he is there for her. To tell her now that he wants a “divorce” would be counter-productive and just pointless. I think he's going to have to wait to become un-enmeshed after she dies, to be quite honest. And THAT is going to be ROUGH...
IHJ, thanks for your insightful comments as usual . You’re right that a healthier partner would move me to some goals quicker, and after hearing my friend’s story last night, I was envious of her new marriage as only a 4 can be! However, I still don’t feel I’m through dealing with the mirroring that is going on here. As you point out struggle can be rewarding when you achieve those small victories.
Karen, fortunately I do have lots of contact with others… my ladies who lunch group, my best friend, my book club, and there’s a music conference that I go to every year that’s coming up next month. That’s one thing about living out in the country—I have to make sure I stay in contact with others. When a 4 stays alone ruminating (and surfing the web) for days, it can get ugly! You are so right that bf “fogs” himself, too. That is SO 7—keep everything at bay with lots of planning and thinking. But as goodguy pointed out, I do that, too—there’s the mirroring.
Actually I’m feeling more positive today. I feel more solid—maybe some of MY internal fog has cleared. My bf shuts me down by telling me that I’m “making demands” like it’s the crime of the century. I’m going to own up to it! I’m going to admit, yes, there are things I need, want, and if he wants to call it a demand, then so be it. It’s odd, but one of his major complaints about his ex, is that she won’t ASK for stuff from him. He said he was always willing to help, and she would get mad at him for not doing something when she had never asked. I don’t know what is the difference between “asking” and “demanding,” but maybe I’m about to find out.
Re Lil Right back where I started It might feel that way but you and bf have grown or at least changed, maybe not in the direction you envisioned.
Lou, how did you like the book? I saw things I was doing and the book gave that thought or activity a label. Fixer, depressor, story-lines. Something like the Id, ego and super ego. It presents a non-emotional, non judgemental model to sort of explain peoples behaviors. It makes it less personal, less of a good or bad behavior, just how people think and maybe work.
Reading the book helped me to disconnect from some of the actual emotional feelings I have and helped me see what I was experiencing was somewhat a common pattern many other people go through.
Reading the book takes some of the "it's me, It's him, out of my mind and gets me back to seeing good people can have differences and not be compatible. Just because person "A" wants something, and person "B" does not want the same thing with the same frequency or intensity, does not make either person a bad person.
I don't know if all my thoughts at this time are related to reading the book, but there are some things I am about to give up on ever expecting BB to offer or be happy with. Some things I am just going to take (go ahead an do knowing she would rather not be involved in) or do occasional, or like go places w/o her, or see some friends I like and let her make her make her comments without trying to sooth her in way.
is it him or is it me? Is he crazy. Is he mentally disturbed. Does he just do a pretty good job of masquerading as a functional person, or is he nuts. OR: am I nuts? I don't see either one of you as nuts. Different things are important to each of you, YES.
Cobra said your bf was too enmeshed with his mother and I sort of see that.
BB said I was too much of a mamas boy when we got married. I was supporting my mother off and on for 6 years and knew my mother could not make it on her own, me being married or not was not going to change my mothers ability to pay for things she needed.
I cut back my financial support and my mother almost lost her trailer because of back taxes. Kind of the opposite of your bf and his mother's situation, but still an enmeshment situation for some people. Yes I consider myself too kind at times, I guess kind comes in several varieties, dependent and giving.
Back to Nut's?? Not nuts but certainly different perspectives and situations you two have.
I was thinking the lack of physical attention from your bf was due in large part to his ED. I was also thinking he did not approve of his mother's fooling around, and now he has 2 daughters he has to project am image of goodness so they don't become sexual with their bf's if they have them. I can kind of see a parent wanting that "doing the right thing" to help keep the kids from straying.
WTG on the hard drive Lil. If that would have been BB's computer, I would have done the job myself. I would have expected your bf to do it for you unless you asked him not to help. Maybe I am different than your bf, but I see where he does some things for you I don't do for BB, like shopping for cook books.
I cook like my mother, what was in the frig/creative, and I have my 3X5 cards for my favorites simple dishes.
I am feeling better today but still tired and am going to take it easy. Maybe a service call and hang another new 6 panel, bedroom door.
I don’t know that much about your bf, what he does for a living and the like. I guess it doesn’t really matter whether he is enmeshed with his mother or not as long as he is aware of it and does not carry any hostility or frustration into your relationship, which is what I think he is doing. If he is an emotional adolescent, then his behavior would fit the bill. Does he know that he does this? Has his counselor talked to him about this?
I got the impression (perhaps incorrectly) that you said you had mentioned something about your past relationship to your bf a few times. I know you don’t mean anything by it but an adolescent could take it in a different way.
BTW, when you present your bf with your demands, don’t forget that his unwillingness to make decisions on his end is what puts you in the position of having to keep bringing up the issue, to the point of it sounding like a demand. If he would have the guts or sufficient differentiation to confront his issues face on, he could lay your concerns to rest and you would not have anything to demand. So while I think he believes you are making something out of nothing, I see it as 50/50. I also think that deep down he knows this, which is why he bought a fog machine.
Quote: BTW, when you present your bf with your demands, don’t forget that his unwillingness to make decisions on his end is what puts you in the position of having to keep bringing up the issue, to the point of it sounding like a demand.
This is a very good point. In a way, when a person can't or won't make a decision, you HAVE to demand, i.e., make the decision for them. I need to keep that in mind... and that is CLASSIC 7 behavior: they like to keep ALL their options open.
Quote: As he got this way, I retreated and got that helpless "here we go again" feeling.
That right there...that is what feeds the beast. He pounces on that very feeling in you because he knows he's gotcha, then. The scales of power have tipped in his favor and he's going to make sure that they are down on his side for a while...or until he feels like tipping em back.
What can you do instead? How about not engaging with this behavior? Can you breezily say "Look, I'm not trying to pick a fight. I have a simple request and that is that you tone down the over correction. I'm going to go make some lemonade. Would you like some?" Keep it light and let him know in no uncertain terms that he aint dragging you down into the pit, no matter how hard he tries. Leave the house if you have to. It appears that he calms himself down in a matter of time anyway and figures out that he's being an ass. (side note: I used to have a healthy dose of Cornered Animal in me so I feel like I can relate to him and I'm telling you what would have worked with me, not sure how it will go over with him)
The fog machine. Hmmm, I don't know if that's a 7 thing or a man thing. MrHP gets like that when the subject is something that involves him and anything that might be lacking. I'm not sure what to tell you about that one, because I can re-route MrHP pretty quickly and with minimum anger. My overall impression of your sitch is that there's too much talking and introspection for his tastes, which causes him to shut most of it out. I have had to curb about 80% of what I *want* to say and only hit the highlights. How would you characterize your interactions on a daily basis? Lots of deep talking or mostly light chatter?
Glad to hear that today is better. It's funny how even a knock down drag out is a form of intimacy that we cling to--even if it wasn't pleasant--isn't it?
Quote: How would you characterize your interactions on a daily basis? Lots of deep talking or mostly light chatter?
It's virtually all light chatter. There has been almost no serious talking and introspective comments since last summer when I made my "can't be in a sexless R forever speech." Certainly I've been thinking and reading constantly and going through my own stuff, but that's been pretty much an internal process (shared here, of course, and with a few friends).
And bf agrees that we do fine on the day to day lifestyle task movie what's for dinner choir car yard dog maintenance stuff, so his comment is, "Why do we have to go any 'deeper'?" And yes, deeper is in quotes and italicized when he says it.
You're right that when I see the convo heading down the toilet, I need to go for a walk or something to break the momentum. I was dreading these people coming over for dinner because I was feeling crappy after our talk, and I knew they were newly happily married and that the wife was coming out of a ssm and now married to a guy who would gladly do it every day, so I anticipated feeling really jealous. But actually just being with other people seemed to lighten things up. It made me think that we should socialize and entertain more. We could never do that in the beginning because a) all he wanted to do was come home and drink, and b) the job he had in a retail computer store required him to work most evenings, EVERY Saturday, and some Sundays. My house in the country is perfect for entertaining.
cobra, I do mention my late husband from time to time in relation to the house and stuff, but bf has a pretty realistic picture of what my life was like. He REALLY got a good sense of it when he had the heart surgery two years ago and he realized that I went through almost 20 surgeries with my H (some as serious, some less serious) in our 10-year marriage. He is aware of the strain both of us were under... when I first met bf, I was still very much prone to panic attacks. That recent one I had was the first one in a long time.
Re Lil "Why do we have to go any 'deeper'?" And yes, deeper is in quotes and italicized when he says it.
Maybe because he does not feel comfortable with anything deeper. Like you say his former addiction has him at a less mature place in his life than you are at right now.
Lil, what if your bf had to do all of the things you did for your H for his W or mother. He would be at a different place.
Your bf had a mother to help him out when he got in tight places. Not the character building, do or die places you have been in.
I suppose your bf sees the world differently than you see it. To bf "lets jusr roll along, something will work."
ED, his girls, his XW, and his mother still play a part in his life. Sorry you get them all.
Hey Lil, Just wanted to add one more thing about the recovering addict angle. I think that people like you and me--who do not suffer from an addiction--would freak if we knew what horrors lie within the mind of an addict. I just watched my dad die of alcohol related health problems and it was terrible. I have often wondered over the years just how many times he tried to quit drinking. It must have numbered in the tens of thousands. Every day, probably. One thing I know for certain is that he adored his daughters and my mother and, of course, farming. He begged us to bring him dirt (dirt!) when in the hospital this last time. And he gave all that up for that terrible mind/body pull that alcohol had over him.
The fact that your bf beat it and has been sober for 2 years is nothing short of a miracle. Do you validate it in any way? I'm not sure what al anon would say to do..too much praise and they'll get cocky and think that "one" isn't going to hurt, not enough and they'll wonder why they're going thru it.
My dad quit for 2 years while he was going through cancer treatment, about 15 years ago. It wasn't cold turkey though..he was using the O'Douls as a crutch, big time. However, I remember those days as the Golden Years of our family. We were all so close and finally gelled, without the constant cloud of alcohol hovering over us.
Anyway, no real advice to offer, just wanted to add that his experiences as a recovering addict are far more harrowing than we can imagine.
You're right, honey-- we have no way of comprehending the kind of pain that a lifetime of addiction is trying to cover up. Interesting that your dad requested dirt... bf adores farming and gardening. I joke that the perfect Christmas gift for him is a bag of manure.
I do validate his sobriety and tell him I'm very proud of him. I think both of us have a good understanding of what a big deal it is, but you're right, I need to keep reminding myself that it truly is a miracle. Thanks.
. You’re right that a healthier partner would move me to some goals quicker, and after hearing my friend’s story last night, I was envious of her new marriage as only a 4 can be! However, I still don’t feel I’m through dealing with the mirroring that is going on here. As you point out struggle can be rewarding when you achieve those small victories. 
You are so right that bf “fogs” himself, too. That is SO 7—keep everything at bay with lots of planning and thinking. But as goodguy pointed out, I do that, too—there’s the mirroring. 