Father's Day went fairly well, except W was in a bad mood. She wasn't feeling well, and also later explained the mood was due to some school stuff. We went to church for the first time since Easter. It was raining so hard this morning that I thought, yet again, that God was preventing W from stepping foot back in church - wishful thinking, on my part, perhaps. But, it cleared up and we went. I wasn't sure how I'd handle it, since even that church has "memories" for her and OM. Only had a couple of bad-thought moments, but went well otherwise. Then, we met my mom for lunch at the museum and then we all went through the museum. Our D2s were being complete spazzes, screaming just to hear their voices echo in the museum. I think W was getting a bit irked at this, although I was having a good time - love my daughters, and loved seeing them have fun. But, eventually, W's bad mood got to me, and I didn't argue when she suggested we leave after only about an hour. Came home in early afternoon and didn't really do much afterward.
W has been working on school work since right after dinner. I pretty much decided that I'm tired, it's Father's Day, and even though I did dishes, I'm done for the day, so I've been sitting on the other sofa. Again, here I am, able to barely glance away from the TV and see her laptop screen. She's 45% working on school work and 45% talking to OM on Google Talk. The remaining 10%, she's talking with me about various things, mostly comments about what's on TV. I've come >this< close to saying "Is it at all hard for you to lead this double life, working your relationship with OM literally at the same time as you're talking with me?" It was right on the tip of my tongue like nothing else, so far. But, I "remained calm" and thought better of bringing A or R up, right now. I've been working at this DB stuff such a short time compared to a number of you, so I figure I can keep going a while longer, trying to figure out this "detach" stuff, before I blurt out something that will probably come off as incredibly accusatory and confrontational - not that confrontation is a bad thing, but my typical style is. I think I'm going to have to figure out a way I can't see her screen.
Hi RC, I have been catching up on your sitch, and wanted to address the living in or separating issue with you. I asked my H to move out when I found out about the A, before I knew anything about DBing, and perhaps it was necessary because I was in such shock and disbelief I am not sure I could have managed myself with my H in the house that first month at least. I cried buckets for weeks. Even now I get triggered by him and his references to the OW and it spoils my day, or my mood etc., even when I KNOW ahead of time what is coming. So I need a fair amount of space, still, just so I can manage myself around H. With that said, I am finding it harder and harder and not seeing any results right now, with H and I more and more spending time apart. There are very few instances for me to show myself off, and it makes me needier and more impatient when I don't see him much (not good). And in your situation, with your little girls, it will disrupt their world with one of you gone. Maybe make them insecure permanently. Really. So I would recommend figuring out strategies that allow you both to remain in the home, but the strategies will have to include you controlling yourself so that you don't mouth off any of those things in your head about OM or the A. Just remember, OM is NOT THE ISSUE. He is just a symptom. Get your act together, and she will notice. Just really get it together, beyond the "act as if" to true deep change which will come if you keep working at it. If she's on the computer, and you don't like what she's doing, leave the room. Go somewhere else. I walk alot now, which is a good strategy when you are living together too. You can even take a cell phone, and vent to a safe someone else. I have lost 30 lbs walking, so it has been a good strategy for me Anyway, I really like your name, Remaining Calm, and that is all your work right now. You do that, find a life that makes you happy so that RCing is easy, and eventually if you are patient, she will figure out what a great guy, what a great dad, etc. you are. Hang in there!
PositivelyListening ************************************** When one door of happiness closes, another one opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us. - Helen Keller
I fell too far behind on you so I will not respond to each thing you posted, but in general.
First, to that frequently talked about issue of her wanting you to fight for her. I am starting to think that is the MAJOR early hurdle that we, especially US men, have to face in our sitches. I faced it, and it seems like everyone is getting hung up on that aspect of things.
So, in the end, I think it's up to you to determine if that's what your W wants from you, for you to "fight" for her in a litteral way, or if really what she wants is you to "take ACTION for her" which is what DB/DR is. I know it's easy to think that she'll mistake what you are doing, or not understand that it IS action, but as I think PL said, most of the time they DO see our changes and recognized it for the "fighting" that it is. I know my W did.
As for the "paying attention to the kids" being part of the problem in your marriage, well, maybe, but then again, so was sitting on the computer but you know what, at this point, you need to do what makes you happy, and then allow that happiness to be on display to W. I have found that my natural tendancy is to shelter W from my things that I PERCIEVED as things that would make her jealous, mad, whatever. So, when I was REALLY happy, I thought it would make her jealous. When I did something fun, I downplayed it because I thought she would be mad at me for enjoying myself since likely she didn't. When I even played video games at home, I often didn't really act like I enjoyed it because I knew she hated them.
Know what? All that sold BOTH of us short, and really, gave me WAY too much credit for controlling her emotions/mood. When I understood that it wasn't all about me (really, that happened when I understood the AFFAIR was not about me), I figured out that I needed to just BE HAPPY, out in the open and not try to predict how W would react. Funny thing happened. W was actually HAPPY FOR ME and encouraged me to do more of that. Now you might think "yea, she was happy for you because it gave her an excuse to go out with OM more." but really, the more "happy for me" she got, the more our relationship grew closer. Also, the more I understood her moods often didn't have anything to do with me, or what I did, the better off we were.
So, GAL on the computer, with the kids, whatever, but the end result is supposed to be a HAPPIER, more FUN YOU, however that has to happen.
RC, keep going. You're getting there. I know it's hard, but there is progress being made, even if it's only inside you right now.
I do figure that if I keep at this long enough, and my W doesn't decide to file for divorce any time soon, that she will eventually see what I'm doing as "fighting" actions. But, man, would I like to put a boot upside OM's head - except I've never been in a fight in my life, so... Occasionally, I do wonder if it her nature to need someone one to just say "you WILL stop this, and you will do it NOW" - she is such a submissive/bottom, but damn am I just not a true top.
Quote: I have found that my natural tendancy is to shelter W from my things that I PERCIEVED as things that would make her jealous, mad, whatever. So, when I was REALLY happy, I thought it would make her jealous.
I do this a bit, myself, but not to that great of an extent. But, I have tried to do it even less since starting DB. The one thing I've been avoiding is too much discussion of my time at the gym, and I haven't figured out why.
Sort of along the same lines, W's parents have this really weird habit of not telling their daughters about important stuff, like their grandfather is in the hospital about to die, until the very last moment... or in some more distant relative cases, not until after they've died. This has caused quite a lot of pain and heartache... and bitterness toward her parents. Well, I was talking to her parents last night (something I started to do more of just before d-day) and they told me her grandmother is now in a nursing home after she wasn't doing so well after a surgery. We knew about the surgery, but thought she was doing well. W got extremely angry - not at me (as she *repeatedly* kept saying), but at her parents and how they keep doing this. I told her, and have told her, that I'll never keep such information from her - ie. I won't try to protect her from pain by not telling her someone is not doing well, like in the hospital. So, I've tried to be very open with her about all sorts of things - but, I think I just didn't dredge up enough crap about my past, that I'd put in the PAST, that she feels I haven't been completely open with her.
But I digress...
Quote: So, GAL on the computer, with the kids, whatever, but the end result is supposed to be a HAPPIER, more FUN YOU, however that has to happen.
One problem I'm running into (I don't think I've mentioned this) is that I've never been what I'd call an "upbeat" person. I've historically been somewhat downbeat, but tried to keep it to myself. Goes toward that "low level depression" my IC and I talked about. So, lately, I've just tried to not ever let the downbeat show, and have *tried* to be upbeat, but damn it's hard when I've never really been that way. I don't want to have to fake it. Hence, trying to find NEW things I'm interested in and enjoy, to try to make me truly upbeat about life and what I'm accomplishing.
Wow, W pushed one of my buttons really good earlier. She woke up at like 5pm and therefore missed her chance to go to yoga (long story on why 5pm, but won't go into that). She was mad... at me, because I didn't call to check on her when not seeing her online. She told me as much on instant messenger. Um... hello... I work all day and don't always have time to check to see if you're online. I'm not your personal backup alarm clock. My usual response would have been along those lines, and I would have really gone off on her. But, instead, I just said that I was running meetings all day (which I was) and didn't check instant messenger. Then, on the way home, I gave her a call, commented how I certainly understand how she can be upset about yoga - attempting to validate (her upset is that she paid for 6 weeks and now isn't going to be able to go for the next two). Hrm, now that I think about it, me being out of town for work 2 days this week and all next week probably have her a bit peeved at "me", too. I then asked about any day time classes, of which I already knew there were some, and she basically said it's not worth trying, now. Normally, I'd have pushed it, trying to solve the situation, but instead I just offered to pick up dinner on the way home (since I would otherwise have had to cook for me and the girls). Got the cold shoulder all the way.
I get home and W starts fixing pasta. Phone rings, she picks it up, says "No, we're not interested.... hello? ... hello? .... hello?" and hangs up... then proceeds to delete caller ID. Um... hi, me again... I know you just deleted caller ID... the phone doesn't quite beep like that except when you delete caller ID. I go and check another extension with caller ID, and sure enough it was SOB, I mean OM calling. I know he calls the house quite often, so that was no surprise - what was a surprise was him calling so late in the day, even if I *was* home 15 minutes earlier than usual. Maybe he was calling to check on where W had been all day. Went about my business, then realized I forgot to call her dad back, b/c I'm meeting her parents for dinner tomorrow night (going to be near where they live). Called her dad, and while on the phone, got some juice for one D2. I guess I forgot to put the cap on, or D2 took it off, and D2 proceeded to go over to W and pour the contents of the cup onto W's laptop. Keep in mind, W is already in a funk - she ended up doing her typical mope around, placing head in hands everywhere she stands for just a moment, and is now on the sofa dead to the world. Laptop is alive, if a bit sticky. I offered to check and clean it - W says no - normally I'd push it, but again just dropped it.
In talking with my IC about passive/aggressive behavior, she gives examples of where you take it, take it, take it, and then act out almost entirely subconsciously in aggression. I wonder if I subconsciously didn't put the cap on D2's sippy cup. I can't see how, as the girls are usually fairly careful, and certainly don't usually run at mommy and dump stuff all over her (although sometimes they do attack) - I think I was just busy - if indeed I did forget, because I'm not sure at this point. I just don't see how you stop passive/aggressiveness like that.
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Validating
Can anyone give a few examples of validating? I'm trying to do this a lot with my W, but I don't think I'm doing it quite right, or validating the stuff she's bringing up is bringing me down. She complains a LOT about school and politics. Since I do happen to agree with most of what she's saying, or at least sympathize, but rarely disagree, my attempts at validation take the form of "Wow, yeah, that sucks" or sometimes more complex discussion type comments (that don't usually lead into lengthy discussion). My typical response to such complaints in the past have been similar, but not really focused on what she's saying (rather, not obviously so) - it may have very easily seemed like I was saying "yeah, okay, sure honey" type not-listening comments. For the most part, I'm trying to make sure she knows I'm listening, if not trying to discuss the issue. As far as bringing me down, I start to get to where I can't take all this negativity. Before, this would have made me grumpy, and while not always likely to trigger an argument, it didn't make either of us swell company. Now, I just bottle that up and have nowhere to dump it in the short term.
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Update: I got Mouse out (the girls named the hamster, "Mouse", so that's his official name, now), and played with him and the girls. We eventually made it around the sofa, in front of W, and she seemed to perk up a bit. What's odd is she didn't get on her laptop for quite a while after the juice accident - totally would have figured her to need to talk to OM to pick her up. Then again, when she's really down, she's always pulled away from everyone, including the one she's closest to (ie. used to be me).
Met W's parents for dinner tonight. Dinner turned out really nice. Nice conversation, nice food, nice company - just nice time all around. Quite some time ago, I figued out something about myself. If I'm in a group and paired with someone (be it my gf, friend, or W), I tend to let that person dominate our end of the conversation. But, when I'm alone, while I don't necessarily "talk up a storm", I talk a heck of a lot more. I'm not much of a conversationalist, having not had much in the way of social interactions until more recent years. But, if you get me alone, I'm more liable to hold up my end of the conversation, as long as I'm comfortable with you. Not too long ago, I finally got comfortable being around my in-laws. They're good people, and they have good things to talk about. I've now had maybe a handful of times that I've been alone or relatively alone with them, and it's always been good because I've been able to talk to them in the way that I want to talk to them. But, bring W around, and W COMPLETELY dominates the conversation. With her parents, it's the worst (I think b/c she spends so little time with them and gets frantic) - but, it comes out in most other situations. It's bad enough that she'll talk right over me. She recently even made a comment that since taking ADHD meds, she's gotten rid of one bad habit - talking over people. But, she still does it to me. BUT, I think it's because I've gotten to where I just don't talk, or I let her talk over me. Now, one of my goals is to not let that happen - but, at the same time, not be too aggressive about it and start talking over her or others.
I half expected my in-laws to ask about how W and I are doing, since W told them we were seeing an MC (which we weren't, and still aren't... not sure why she lies like this to them). But, nothing even remotely like that came up, which was probably for the better. But, still, in my mind, I half expected one of them to ask "Is <W> having an affair?" and maybe even "Is <W> having an affair with <OM>?", since they're fully aware of OM's existence and her unnaturally close friendship with him. So, I'd tried to prepare myself to answer that question... but, never really did prepare for it (how can you?). I think I *wanted* them to ask, although I don't think I've thought through the consequences of them really knowing. But, in the end, I think W is right about one thing - they have a stance of non-interference (which, side note, makes me believe she brought up the MC thing with them out of the blue). BUT, damn... they were so incredibly happy that I'd asked them to meet me for dinner - "It's so great to have a son-in-law that thinks about us!" (verbatim what my MIL said). If they like me that much, and they want us together that much, and they want this family to stay together that much, then why don't they stick their noses in a little bit more? Sorry, just pondering how folks external to this affair see things and act (or don't act) to try to correct them. Had a nice dinner tonight with two people I love very much, and should leave it at that.
Quote: If they like me that much, and they want us together that much, and they want this family to stay together that much, then why don't they stick their noses in a little bit more? Sorry, just pondering how folks external to this affair see things and act (or don't act) to try to correct them.
I feel the same way as you do, often. I just want someone that loves my H and me and our marriage to come in and shake him up and force some logic in his face, and fix this whole thing. Right now! However, I have heard over and over again (hence I am beginning to believe it) that my H will not listen to anyone (or hear anyone) and no one will be able to help much, until he figures it out and owns it for himself.
Now, I only partially believe this. I do think an unbiased, validating listener that my H trusts and feels comfortable with, could make a difference for him. But not someone who would push him. I am sure that anyone confronting him or telling him he is wrong or should do it a certain way (ie. stay in the marriage when he doesn't feel that right now), won't help. He has to decide about his life and what he wants. Your W does too. She has to choose you, all over again. Now, if she is close to her parents and they are not the kind of parents that tell her what to do, maybe a heart to heart with them would help her sort some stuff out. But I am quite sure if they (or anyone) tries to tell your W what to think or what to do or what is best before she is ready, that those efforts will only backfire. I wish it wasn't like this. But I'm pretty sure that our WAS want to be independent grown-ups who decide for themselves and make their own choices. Maybe that's a big piece of why these things happen in the first place. Maybe they have just felt like people have been telling them what to do and not caring about what they wanted or needed for a long time.
I am not sure if I will be able to follow my own advice. I have been contemplating involving more people in our situation lately (see my thread). Yet I am writing what makes sense. It just goes against my emotions, and challenges my patience. My two cents
PositivelyListening ************************************** When one door of happiness closes, another one opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us. - Helen Keller
Quote: Now, I only partially believe this. I do think an unbiased, validating listener that my H trusts and feels comfortable with, could make a difference for him. But not someone who would push him.
Yeah, that's the problem with relatives, and especially parents - if they're on the side of keeping the marriage together, they're more likely to be pushing for it, which can too easily backfire. So, in reality, I don't want them to help in this way - but, I still yearn to know someone out there cares enough to try.
Feel like I haven't had a chance to journal in a while, so please forgive the length...
W heads out to her 2nd archaeology dig tomorrow, coming back Sunday. Don't remember if I mentioned it, but my mom was supposed to go on this one, but W came up with a reason she shouldn't (heat, temperment of the professor, etc), so now my mom's not going. All that stuff may be true, but (and I don't think I mentioned this) during my last bout of snooping, I found out OM is flying into our home town this time to go out there with her - last time, he flew in near where she was going and met her there. You know what? Yes, it bugs me... but, I think I'm coming to terms with the fact I can't do anything to control it. Sure, the thoughts came across my mind of "I'm going to meet that SOB at the airport with some friends and show him what for", but they are fleeting and fanciful thoughts. I've already planned another weekend with my mom and my D2s. Whatever W does, such is her choice, and all I can do is take care of myself.
I did have a small regression control-wise, though. W shares all of her digital pictures with me so that I can share a mix of mine and hers with family and friends. She told me she was going to offload her camera the other day, so I accessed the folder from my laptop, like I usually do. She had left the camera going in the office and came back out to do other things, and meanwhile I'm waiting for the files to finish offloading. I'm looking through the pictures, which included some she took at the last archaeology dig trip, and come across one of OM. I got quite angry... but, said nothing. Instead, I grabbed a copy onto my computer, figuring she'd do something with the original - and, sure enough, after she went back to retrieve her camera, the file mystically dissappeared from the regular picture folder I get stuff from. I happen to be fairly well versed in Photoshop and touching up photographs in it. As a cathartic (?) exercise, I edited OM out of the picture. Controlling desires wanted me to replace the original with it (since I knew where she stuck it - not hidden, just moved to a different picture folder), so she wouldn't have such a picture to look back upon... but, I didn't. I have to say I did a pretty damn good job editing him out, though.
Time around the house and around W is still quite strange. We have somewhat regular conversations about daily happenings, with W holding up most of the conversation - that is, she's talking to me a lot more than I really would figure. I don't know why I would figure otherwise, except it seems like she's still investing time in our R, somehow, and that confuses me. No talk of our R, directly; and certainly no talk of the A, although I have no doubt whatsoever that it is still going strong (just no extremely recent evidence). I do feel that should she end (or pause) the A, she'll say so. Life just seems so... normal... except for my knowledge of her past and continued deceptive actions and my DB actions.
Had a very upsetting dream early this morning, although the dream itself wasn't upsetting. I dreamt that we were lying in bed, I started touching W (just brushing her or spooning), time passes, then W started touching and caressing me, which led into sex. The dream ended before it got really interesting, but what was upsetting about it is this... W and I are still not really having any physical contact. Outside of the accidental brushing up against each other in bed, we have almost literally no physical contact. The contact in the dream started with me touching W, which has been how almost any physical contact since d-day has started. But, in the dream, W reciprocated (not just the caressing, but light touching), whereas she doesn't reciprocate AT ALL in the real world. I'm the type of person that really can't continue trying that sort of stuff without some reciprocation. I'm still having trouble figuring out how to proceed here.
One quick note - I mentioned how there's one thing I want from my W for my bday. That wasn't sex, it was for her to end the affair. Even if W offered me sex right now, without the A having ended and me knowing that was true, I really don't think I could have sex with her. But, I can't say that for certain, as my thinking may change in the heat of the moment - if we HAD any "heated" moments these days. :P
If you're still with me, I was thinking of giving my W some cash - like $1000. We got a crazy tax refund this year - my stupidity in not filing my W4 correctly - and I was actually going to give her this to spend. But, right now, I think this would be a stupid move as it might been seen as pursuit. There are also other bugs in my mind, like the fact OM is probably giving her money.
Ending on a relatively good note... I'm getting really happy with my decision to go to the gym on a regular basis. I did my first on-my-own workout set today, and ended up pushing myself a little too hard, but I feel like I've even made progress since my last visit. I'm starting to feel like I can definitely stick with this in the long run. Also, I'm starting to get a hold of the concept that I don't answer to my W, and that I can find time to do things for myself, without having to pussyfoot around the ideas, feeling like I'm burdening her with things like having to take care of the girls while I go do my thing. Like I read on another thread, she's always asked for things she's wanted, but I've avoided doing so - I'm starting to feel better about asking for what I want, and being quite direct about it. I think my next move is going to be my guitar lessons idea.
The only thing I really want to reply to is the money thing. IF it's both of your money to spend, then she has the right to spend it. If somehow it's your money alone, and in a marraige, that really doesn't happn much, then I would not necessarily go out of my way to "give it to her". Again, denying access to money that is rightfully hers to spend, or "allowing" her access to it is not really the same as "giving" it to her and as such, I don't think there's an issue...other than IF it's joint money and you feel you need to control access to it, well, that's more control is it not?
GH
P.S. Don't worry, I don't know what the hell I just said either...I think there's a point in there somewhere.
Anyway, I really like your name, Remaining Calm, and that is all your work right now. You do that, find a life that makes you happy so that RCing is easy, and eventually if you are patient, she will figure out what a great guy, what a great dad, etc. you are. Hang in there!
Occasionally, I do wonder if it her nature to need someone one to just say "you WILL stop this, and you will do it NOW" - she is such a submissive/bottom, but damn am I just not a true top.