I think, to adress your "as if" question, that sometimes we ARE talking about denial of sorts. It's another one of those fine lines we learn to walk in all this.
To me, acting "as if", and I swear DB DOES talk about this, is yes, acting as if the affair doesn't affect me. To me, it was a vehicle to help me learn to detach. I "acted as if" the affair didn't affect me until I was able to detach enough to where it really didn't affect me on a daily, or really, minute-by-minute basis.
Yes, people DO use "as if" to remain in denial but really it's a tool, that if used ACTIVLY, by choice, cannot really BE denial. Denial is not wanting to accept something as reality. With "as if" you are fully accepting the reality of the affair and then denying your reaction to it. There IS a difference, and it lies in the acceptance part.
I used to worry about being in denial ALL the time but then I realized that simply by questioning my feelings about the affair, worrying that I was in denial, meant that I was not. When you are truly in denial, you don't question it because to question it is to, well, stop denying it.
GH: Surprisingly, that made perfect sense. It's amazing how many fine lines we have to walk.
I had my fourth C session today. My C isn't a bad C, by any means - she's really helping me see things in myself and in my actions, and suggesting ways to change them and better myself. But, she keeps suggesting I talk to W about the A. She did bring up one of my biggest fears, and that is that W has compartmentalized the A and our R so distinctly, that she'll keep on going without bringing up the A as long as I let her. "Having her cake and eating it too," is what my C said repeatedly. I really see no change in my W - I really think that she hopes to keep both relationships going... but, I've heard her say otherwise when snooping (eg. "if/when I divorce", "walk away from this marriage", etc). It's just so bizarre to have a good and fun family evening with her, but have her getting her initimacy and friendship needs fulfilled elsewhere. Heck, I probably just summarized what every LBS on this board feels. But, is it really this usual for the WS to give absolutely no indication of talking about the A - to go on as if d-day never happened? She hasn't brought up the A, hasn't mentioned us working on our R, and I have every indication she won't until the next time she's liquored up.. This freaking elephant is killing me.
In the meantime, I had an old friend hit me up for hanging out tonight (W actually contacted him, I think). At least I'll be doing something. I'm half tempted to tell him what's going on, but I shouldn't drag one more person into this. Besides, I should concentrate on having a good time, and not on the A.
RC
P.S. Loaned my C copies of DB and DR. I keep describing DB so wrong to her - hopefully she gets it and agrees with the methodology enough to help me work it, or at least enough to not hinder me and suggest things counter.
Glad to hear C is going well. They usually do want you to push to talk to WAS about the A. Mine did. I just told her that was not something I believed in doing, and why.
Quote: I really think that she hopes to keep both relationships going... but, I've heard her say otherwise when snooping (eg. "if/when I divorce", "walk away from this marriage", etc). It's just so bizarre to have a good and fun family evening with her, but have her getting her initimacy and friendship needs fulfilled elsewhere. Heck, I probably just summarized what every LBS on this board feels. But, is it really this usual for the WS to give absolutely no indication of talking about the A - to go on as if d-day never happened? She hasn't brought up the A, hasn't mentioned us working on our R, and I have every indication she won't until the next time she's liquored up.. This freaking elephant is killing me.
Totally common. That's what my W did for months. She dropped the bombs and then didn't speak of it for a LONG time. Really, not for about 3-4 months I think. It killed me too, but I learned to deal with it. Detaching is a wonderful thing...
Quote: P.S. Loaned my C copies of DB and DR. I keep describing DB so wrong to her - hopefully she gets it and agrees with the methodology enough to help me work it, or at least enough to not hinder me and suggest things counter.
I am REALLY interested in hearing what she thinks. I may do the same with my C too. Please post the results!!!
Had my first dream/nightmare about the A last night - at least, the first I remember after waking. I hope to not have many more of those. Talk about waking up in a "mood". I think I've been saved from a lot of not-wanting-to-get-out-of-bed type depression by the fact either I'm not dreaming about the A or just not remembering my dreams. I don't remember many details, but I do remember I was constantly running away from my W, who wasn't actually chasing me - I just wanted to get as far away from her as I could. Then, I found a sympathetic female ear, who also happened to be married (might have been OM's wife at various points, but not all the time), and we started to fall into an EA immediately. Harkens back to onlytime's thread about retaliatory affairs. Even though this EA was kicking off, and I knew I should stop, I couldn't stop myself. The dream ended before it progressed further than anything emotional. So disturbed by how easy it was to slip into the EA. I know, it's just a dream, and I wouldn't necessarily do the same in real life, but you know how tough it can be getting rid of those post-waking feelings.
In other news, W should be back from out of town today. Weird feeling things that happened. She called me yesterday late afternoon, after she'd gotten back from the dig, and we had a good chat, although brief. Then, she called me later that night, and we had a rather lengthy chat. Nothing really consequential, but very amicable. The weird thing about it all was that I still VERY much suspect OM came down to stay with her just the couple of nights she'd be there. I knew she had a school paper she was also going to have to work on while there, so her time was going to be pretty full. She called me around 1am this morning, needing a favor. She couldn't get dialup working from the hotel, so needed me to send the teacher's aide an email asking for forgiveness and she'd send it from Starbucks in the morning. Again, I just can't sync up my still heavy suspicions OM is/was there and her having all this other stuff going on, plus the lengthy (and good) phone conversation we had. Just regurgitating/journaling thoughts - not dwelling on it, too much, but hard to detach from this fully.
Mom's over helping take care of the girls and is cleaning our house madly - I think I should go help.
I don't think I've mentioned this about my W's history. I am her second husband. She was married to someone she met through an online game (a MUD, if you know what that is) quite a number of years ago. They were married a few years, and then she says he started going out of town to have sex with someone he met online. She found out by snooping some online chat logs. This was circa 1997 or 1998. She eventually had a retaliatory affair with someone she met online. She tells much more awful things, like her XH tried to get her to do a threesome with OW. Well, since d-day, I've really wondered if this is how things played out. Her current A is with someone *she* met online, again in an online game (Everquest). I'm wondering if it was in fact her that had the first affair, and that perhaps this is a pattern - she met her current OM playing World of Warcraft. So, I've given more and more thought to contacting her XH to get his side of the story. Is this a stupid idea? (I'll have to do some work to track him down, but a couple of our friends are old friends of his.)
Timeline note: We got together just before their divorce was final, in late 1999. I didn't know their divorce wasn't final, at the time, and she never talked about the whole divorce proceedings while we were building our relationship.
Hate to post updates when I've got an open question (and since my post are so long), but...
Mom was over and had wanted to go swimming in our pool with the girls, and we went out swimming around 6:15. W got home today around 6:30. I'd also invited my best friend and his wife to come over with their kids to go swimming - had invited them to come over any time on the weekend, to keep me from getting lonely, but turns out tonight was the only time they could make it and we decided to make an after-swimming dinner of it. These two are the only ones outside of myself and W (and OM) to know about the A. I've been exceedingly uncomfortable having W and these two together, when they all know that they all know. But, I think I'm the only one that is so uncomfortable. The other day I asked my best friend about it, and he said he was fine and could remain civil as long as she didn't mention OM - something she used to do all the time. W hadn't mentioned OM in passing conversation around me except maybe once since d-day. When talking to our friends about a restaurant she went to while out of town, she mentioned OM in reference to "My friend, <OM>, would call it food porn." It was very quick, and I don't know that anyone else caught it (particularly when OM and my best friend share names - different spelling, thank God), but I did. "My friend" my a$$. The only person in the room who didn't know he's more than just her "friend" was my mom... and like I've said before, my mom has had her suspicions for a long time and is 100% certain they're at least in an EA. Was all I could do to not blurt out laughing and say "your FRIEND, huh? HAH!".
All in all, except for that moment, had a good time tonight. After W got home, she pretty much crashed and I spent the time swimming with my mom, two girls, my two good friends, and their two kids. Quite happy to have that time, and something I intend on creating more of, with or without W being there to enjoy the time with us.
Snooping: Is it snooping if you are sitting watching TV and can easily see your W's laptop screen because she's sitting 6 ft away with it pointing right at you? My W sits like this every night - we've stopped sitting in our home office, where her screens are pointed away from me. We both sit in the living room, now, and just by the way we sit comfortably every night, I can look right at her screen by turning my eyes like 1 degree from the TV screen. Of course, I can't read it, but I can see what's up on her screen. I can easily see that she's using Google Talk, and I know from previous snooping that the only person she has on Google Talk is OM (I suspect they changed from AIM because they thought I was capturing AIM conversations... which I never was). You might ask, "why don't you sit somewhere else?" or "why don't you go do something else?" The thing is, I do and I do - but, I have to sit, veg, and watch TV every once in a while, and I can't help but see her darn laptop screen in my peripheral vision. I constantly wonder, is this something she's doing on purpose? Does she *want* me to say something about it? I mean, it's so ungodly obvious that I can see her screen. I feel like a putz for not saying "My god, woman! Stop talking to that s.o.b. already!"
One other new/strange/disturbing thing from the weekend. Went shopping with my mom and D2s. While out shopping, saw someone that looked similar to OM - not just like him, or even real close, but close enough to trigger the memory of his face. I can't not possibly describe the rage that ramped up in me so incredibly fast. This when seeing a guy who for all intents and purposes didn't really look like OM. I hope and pray I am never in physical proximity to OM... ever... ever, again.
Fell off the wagon big time today. For a reason not worth explaining, I dug into W's email again. Same sort of feelings resurfaced while reading all the usual emails - stupid stupid stupid - just shouldn't read that crap. But, did find two interesting things. Going back in time, I did find out they did indeed meet up when W was out of town - goody goody, suspicion confirmed, big deal. Then, back on 6/2, she sent him a "goodbye, for now" email, talking about how her continued communication with him is hindering any effort she might put forth with me. You'd think this is what every snooper out there is looking for. Their communication in that thread didn't really resolve to them deciding to continue communication. But, guess what, they did continue communicating, almost as if that conversation didn't happen. Just a few days later said she thinks she hit a "tipping point", tipping over to the side of OM. Well, that easily negated that "goodbye, for now" conversation. Then, she goes and meets up with him (in her email, she said she'd have to tell me she was doing it and why... hrm, that never happened). I think overall I do indeed feel worse, but not a heck of a lot worse - just leaves me in the same place I was before I snooped again. But, right after reading all of that - even the "goodbye, for now" email - I looked up the phone number of a recommended divorce attorney that I'd been hesitating to call. I didn't call her, mostly because it was late in the day already. On the drive home, I instead picked up the phone and called the MC I'd been procrastinating in calling and left a message to call me. I figured I would hit both angles, anyway, so why not contact the MC first. (Also, since she was that close to even a temporary break off, maybe it's a good sign. The again, maybe "I'm filing for divorce" is the kick in the a$$ she needs... not yet... not yet.)
W is at yoga tonight, and will be home around 9pm. Before I read her email, I'd already decided I need to start my getting-out-of-the-house plans. So, when she gets home tonight, I'm going to say "The girls are in bed. I'm going out. I'll have my cell." If she asks "where you going?", my answer will truthfully be "I don't know, just out." and I plan for that to be the answer any time she asks. If she wants to ask where I was, when I get back, I'll happily answer exactly where I was - but, she's damn sure going to have to ask. Tonight, I plan on taking DR and going somewhere quiet to read - and I'm not going to decide where until I set food outside the door.
Some other snooping bits I gotta dump. I know he's sent her money. I know I've been a little penny pinching, but she acts as if I've never spent a dime on her. I've spent ungodly amounts of money on her at various points. What he is doing is nothing new. But, some of their conversation it sounds like he's freaking buying her. It's sick (among a great number of other things). Also, I happened upon a "toy" he'd given her - you know, the vibrating sort. Now, we've had some of these things ourselves, so it's nothing new, but... ugh... from him. Now she has a bag full of various things. My desire to control has me wanting to sabotage them all somehow - but, my previous sabotage efforts have been in vain, so why bother.
One other note, and I promise I'm done. To say physical contact has been at a minimum with us is an understatement. We don't even brush when passing in the hallway. I think I mentioned that I'd planned on spooning her just before her trip, to try to reintroduce some physical contact, but that didn't happen. Well, early this morning I went to spoon her, and she did something she hasn't done for years - she flinched. She used to flinch any time I touched her in bed while she was asleep - I think because of bad crap in her past just having her psychologically messed up a bit. She's asleep, but not really aware (or at least I think so). She flinched just like that again this morning. It makes me worry quite a lot about what this affair is doing to her overall psyche. They're dredging up so much bad crap from their respective pasts and wrapping themselves around it - in my opinion, you should get past that stuff and make a new life of happiness for yourself. We had that going, and now he's taking her back to some previous warped state. Of course, it could be she was partially awake and didn't want me to touch her - today's snooping found a note where she said I kissed her on her back, and she didn't want it. Oh well, going to act "as if" on this one, and act as if she actually does want physical contact, even if limited to light touches and the occasional spoon.
RC
P.S. I'm sorry I'm not inputting too much into other threads. It's all I can do to find time to read DR and journal my sitch. I promise once I somehow find time, I will offer what I can back to everyone. I also urge any lurkers out there to just start posting your sitch. If you can't contribute to others, at least vent/dump/journal here, and maybe someone can offer help or at least a good word.
Here's the thing RC. You claim to want to stop snooping yet you keep doing it, like you're some kind of victim or something. You claim to think it's a bad thing to do yet when I read about what you found out, you seem, on the whole, glad you snooped.
I guess my message is that it is bad to snoop, but even worse to deny the choice. YOU made the choice to snoop, so live with what happens because of it. Take charge of your life. Own that choice and accept it. If you don't want to do it again, then just don't, but don't act like some invisible force is making you read W's emails, cuz it ain't.
On a more positive note, I love the new GAL attitude. Yes, go out and read. Get some RC time and use it to work on that which you feel will do the most for YOU.
You are surely on the roller coaster. You are making it more severe by snooping, but that's your choice.
Don't worry about everyone else here. You'll post more when you have time. Worry about you and the rest will take care of itself.
Hi GH - thanks for the response. Going to quote ya, so I can touch on some of your points.
Quote: You claim to want to stop snooping yet you keep doing it, like you're some kind of victim or something. You claim to think it's a bad thing to do yet when I read about what you found out, you seem, on the whole, glad you snooped.
Hrm, never really felt I claimed I was a victim, because other than the fact my wife is cheating on me, I don't feel the victim here at all (and even then, I know I had my part to play in it). Will have to look back at my wording. Nobody's making me snoop except myself. I have to admit, I'm glad I know a few of the things, in a way, but only from the sense of control it gives me. False sense of control, yes, but a sense nonetheless. Good? No, that's why I need to stop both snooping and trying to control.
Quote: I guess my message is that it is bad to snoop, but even worse to deny the choice. YOU made the choice to snoop, so live with what happens because of it. Take charge of your life. Own that choice and accept it. If you don't want to do it again, then just don't, but don't act like some invisible force is making you read W's emails, cuz it ain't.
Still not sure where I implied it was anything BUT my choice. I make my choices and I live with them. I don't feel anyone or anything, invisible or otherwise, is making me read her emails. It's nothing more than an addiction. Ever been addicted to anything? I have a VERY non-addictive personality, and have had only a few addictions. This is one of them - not just the specific "reading W's email", but the need to know everything. Again, good? No, and I hate myself for doing it. But, addiction is addiction, and stopping is easier said than done. Please don't read into that that I'm making an excuse. Again, I know I make my own choices.
All in all, I'm just venting and mostly about myself, as well as journaling the choices I make, whether stupid or not.
Quote: On a more positive note, I love the new GAL attitude. Yes, go out and read. Get some RC time and use it to work on that which you feel will do the most for YOU.
Yeah, the plan of going out without a plan kind of sucked. We have JACK that open past 10pm around here. Bleh. Might have to travel into town. (Outside = mosquitos, so will only do that when I have a gallon of bug spray.)
Quote: You are surely on the roller coaster. You are making it more severe by snooping, but that's your choice.
RC, you may not have ever said you snooping is controlled by invisible aliens or anything, but I got from reading your posts that you felt like you couldn't control it, when in fact, you can. You can call it an addiction, and if it is, and you see it as such, then what help have you sought out to remove this addiction from your life. You know, the first step is admitting you have a problem, lol.
Anyway, I DO sound like you're in control, as always, and my comments about you needing to own your decisions may have been off. I think you DO do that for the most part, so maybe I should have left it at thinking you need to make DIFFERENT decisions.
It's amazing how many fine lines we have to walk.