It wasn't me that you had the convo with, but I remember that one. Actually, it's not as complex as you're making it out:
W: I just feel like our whole marriage is crap. I don't think I ever loved you Muddle and we got married for all the wrong reasons. M: Ok, I guess I can see how YOU would feel that way. W: Oh, how "I" feel, so I'm wrong then. You're so condescending.
Pretty much covers it.
I have tried to look at things in different ways - even to the point of agreeing that "it certainly feels that way" but generally I validate by saying that I understand how she could, or that she does feel a certain way. I feel cornered all the time, and I think this may be an area where I need to do a 180 - she starts conflict and I try to pacify
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Muddle--Maybe it's *how* you're validating that's the problem? Perhaps it's the words you choose, the setting you're in, your body posturing and not agreeing with her that has her feeling as though you're silently mocking her?
I know I can tell the difference between pure empathy and modeled empathy--particularly when the intent is just to get through a conversation without inflicting or receiving damage or taking the time to understand what your W is saying.
Her self esteem may certainly come into play here--and I'm not doubting that for a moment.
However, if your type of validation isn't what she understands as validation, you've got a classic miscommunication problem.
I know you understand that validating does not mean you agree. But what true, empathetic validation requires of us is to hop in her shoes for a moment and hear her words so you might feel her pain. It means making a true attempt at understanding how she might be feeling about things in your marriage. And yes, in some conversations, it's perfectly acceptable to own your part in how things you did made her feel. I'm not saying you accept 100% of the blame carte blanche, but to acknowledge your own stuff in order to heal the R.
My guess is that your discomfort in talking to her is plainly visible to her--and she feels as though you're just paying her lip service with your brand of validation.
What do you think she might say?
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Anyway, what UD is saying is a much better way of saying what I was trying to get at. I was trying to see if I could tell if the WAY you were validating may be coming off as condescending even if you didn't intend it to be.
Again, I agree with UD in that if she can sense, because of body language, the words you choose, your tone, whatever, that you are merely placating her to expidite the conversation, then she will react that way. True validation is heartfelt and without judgment...oh, and often VERY hard to pull off if they're saying venomous crap that you 100% don't agree with.
Also, to continue the "agree-fest", I agree that your W could just be taking ANY attempt you make at validating her and using it agaist you. Since you can't really control that, I guess we're left examining your methods more...
GH
P.S. Mama, you want us to move this to muddle's thread?
You guys can keep this going here if you want. It is a learning process for all of us.
We really need to practice empathy when validating. Empathy = understanding of another's feelings: the ability to identify with and understand another person's feelings or difficulties.
This is a tough one for me, especially if that person's feelings are different from mine. I automatically get defensive; like "what do you mean you are unhappy with our marriage? I'm happy therefore you should be too"
I think it was yoyogirl that said it best: some of us have been married for a while and with jobs, kids, obligations, etc. we all tended to take our spouses for granted. In hindsight, we wish we didn't do this but we didn't know any better, we just did what we knew how. Now we know better and will hopefully have the chance to have a much more fulfilling and happier M.
Mama, good week for you. Keep up the good work. It's all nice to read the threads, literature, and feel so dang good about the changes you WANT to make. Then, you DO make them, when things are seemingly easy. For me, the tough part was keeping them up when things were TOUGH, downright horrible. For the most part, I did, and it paid off (well, back then it did).
It's great to see the little progress each day, it adds up, trust me. At first, I didn't think it did, but I went about things anyway....but in just a few weeks, it made a difference to H.
You need to do the same, I know it'll work out. He still likes being home, is nice to you, likes being with you. He is willing to go to counseling....whatever happened to that? You should really follow-through with that request of yours....since he agreed and you asked for it. You don't want him to think it was a 'threat' or manipulative to get him to stop his behaviors....make the appointment, and ask him, again, if he still wants to go, nicely, calmly. If he says yes, then do it and stick with it. Don't make it a punishment, just a way the 2 of you can make this whole mess easier. He's obviously pointing things out to you (sex issue and your anger), so he's not happy either, so just make counseling a way that both of you can sort this out and make the situation better for BOTH of you. Don't make it about "fixing the M" or "convincing H to stop the A and stay in the M."
You go girl. You are REALLY putting the knowledge into action and seeing results. Times will get tough, and you may backslide, but remember 1 thing....you will act angry, or slide...but the difference in the new YOU isn't that you NEVER get angry, rather it's how you handle the anger, how you recover, how you do things differently in a VERY normal situation (disagreement/anger).
I hate the fact that I LOST it when H came out with A stuff.....I regret that now, as it's emblazened in H's mind, again. BUT, I did things differently...I raged, but just for 1 night, not days (which I did before). I had a million questions, I asked a LOT (basic ones), but not too detailed at all (still he felt humiliated me asking anything....tough luck buddy). I actually verbalized understanding his A, his actions, and said lots of loving things then. I backslided a little by pressuring him into deciding to stay in the M, questions, etc. and that was bad, but oh well, I stopped. I was able to, in my anger, articulate lots of questions that led to discussions (not "how could you do this to me" rather "how did this happen, why, for you, H?" which was MUCH more productive).
When he flipped a lid, I validated everything, I listened, I answered questions.
The point here is that you WILL be you...you will be angry, and all those things, BUT, do it differently. He will notice, because he only expects the worst from you now. You may give him the worst, but not for long, and not too much.
Thanks for the cheerleading. Had another great day yesterday. I babysat in the morning, then was outside with 2 of my kids around 2:00, when my H pulls up. OMG, I can't believe he is home this early! He said he just wanted to come home, didn't want to be at work - yay! I took my oldest D shopping and when we came back H and my other 2 kids were gone. They left a note that they went to the public pool. D and I joined them and had a really nice time. H suggested I get passes for the summer since the kids enjoyed it so much. After we came home we sat outside and had a few cocktails with our neighbors - something we did all the time last summer before the A started.
He gave me a nice hug this morning as he left for work and said he would call when he is on his way home. I stated we might barbeque or the kids and I may be at the pool again. No pressure. We will see what the day brings. But whatever happens I will make a conscience effort to control my emotions
Tomorrow for Father's Day the kids and I are taking H to Great America with a friend of mine and her kids, it's supposed to be 99 - should be fun!
If the timing is right this weekend I will bring up counseling and see when would be good time to fit into his schedule. Even if he decides he doesn't want to go, I may go alone and update her on my progress.
Here are a few more things to ponder that I picked up from my reading:
For women: stop coaching Men often feel criticized, unappreciated, pestered, reprimanded, and blamed by the women who allegedly love them. While you think you are helping him, you may be causing the steady erosion of his self-esteem. That response drives him further from you. No matter what he is doing that upsets you, you relationship is more important than any particular behavior or habit you don't like. When you coach and advise, you aren't succeeding in changing your H's behavior; you are only making it hard for your H to feel close to you - the one thing you most want. Just stop. Your H does not need your advise, you suggestions, your reminders, or your corrections. Give it all up, right now, cold turkey. You don't get to call all the shots in this marriage. You don't get to control your H's behavior. Both you and your H will start feeling better right away when you go on total abstinence from you coaching and advising.
Re: Intimacy A couple can have low levels of conflict and a lot of general compatibility (like my old M). But if they do nothing to nurture the feelings of love between them, the relationship will go flat (as mine did). They will begin to sense that something is missing, that they are being cheated, that the flame has died out (as my H felt).
Relax. Take in exactly what is really going on between you, instead of always trying, in subtle ways, to affect it, to push it. Let go of the idealized image. Companionship is an important form of intimacy. The very fact that you share so much of your life with one person is a truly amazing gift.
If you are frustrated with your partner, remember, your partner is also frustrated with you. Soften the urgency about your position and develop empathy for your partner.
Don't make your partner wrong. Recognize that your partner has a right to be the way he or she is.
Give some attention to giving your partner what he or she wants. Let go of the fantasy of what you wish the relationship were like, and let yourself enjoy what it actually is. Women: your H would love for you to notice and thank him for all the contributions he makes to your family. Express your appreciation, acknowledge and thank him for being the great guy he is. And take pleasure in what he does.
Try going even further. Try deliberately being just a bit more independent and seperate and self-sufficient. Do something you'd love to do for yourself entirely on your own.
Spend time together. "Togetherness" is an essential component of intimacy.
Intimacy has its own rhythm. Over a long relationship, there will naturally be times of more and less closeness. If you can keep perspective and trust through the hard times and not become overly anxious about them, warmth and closeness will come back to you, maybe when you least expect it.
Take a shift in attitude from frustration, anger, and blame to friendliness, tolerance, understanding, and kindness; a shift from helplessness to personal power.
Oh Mama, Great post! I need the encouragement right now too. I know how to do these things, but lately I have been impatient and irritated, at least inside. I especially like the part about empathy. And also this is really helpful:
Quote: Give some attention to giving your partner what he or she wants. Let go of the fantasy of what you wish the relationship were like, and let yourself enjoy what it actually is.
It is so easy to get caught up in our own wants and needs. But I am quite sure everything will flow quite a lot better if H gets that I am genuinely interested in meeting his needs. And I am! SOMETIMES. Problem is, though, what do you do when you're needy? My tank's been running a little empty lately. Sometimes it's hard to give and focus on H's needs when I'm feeling needy myself. I am so tired too. I feel like I've done a lot of GALing and yet, I am still sad. I can usually turn myself around, but lately I've been low. Maybe I'll just start here:
Quote: Relax. Take in exactly what is really going on between you, instead of always trying, in subtle ways, to affect it, to push it. Let go of the idealized image.
Meanwhile, I'll start with a different kind of "relax" baby step - go take our dog for a walk, be grateful for my beautiful home, my two legs, my dog, the beach.
I will print out your post, Mama. I will pay particular attention to the part about coaching and advising. I have been guilty of this MANY, MANY times. It does not help that I am paid to do those things in my work life... Thank you for these pearls, even if I haven't let them all sink in yet!
PositivelyListening ************************************** When one door of happiness closes, another one opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us. - Helen Keller
PL, I am so happy that I can help you. I too, have sad times. My H still lives with us and spends a lot of family time with us. I would just like him to hold my hand, to pull me towards him and give me a kiss. I want to feel like he cares about me - like he used to. Unforntunately, he doesn't have those feelings anymore. Not much I can do about that except to not be the nagging, complaining bitchy person I was last year.
As an update to my sitch, Saturday H came home at 1:00 (the time he ALWAYS came home on Saturdays before the A began). I was totally shocked as now I just do whatever and never expect him to be here. I had just turned on the barbeque. So, we ate, relaxed and then went back to the park district pool and bought passes for the summer! Had a great time.
Today, we went to Great America. Spent 9 hours there, even though it rained practically the whole time. Everyone was so happy and had such a great time, especially with Dad!! He really is such a great father - fun, smart, strong, cool & cute!
My parents are coming to town tommorrow morning, unexpectantly - I just found out tonight - so I will now turn into a cleaning maniac - GH, you and your W can relate
Hopefully I will have time to update tommorrow. Thanks for keeping up with me and if you have to, go back and read the things I posted recently about the things I have read; they really seem to be working - at least for my sanity.
Here is my horoscope for today, not that I believe in this stuff, but it sure relates:
If something isn't working the way you thought it would in this relationship, it's time to change your frame of reference. Maybe you need to get closer. Maybe you need to back away. Maybe a change of scenery is key.
Things that are way beyond your control might be bumming you out especially hard, but try not to get discouraged: There is always hope. Take a brighter, more peaceful approach and talk things out with the people around you who feel the same. Together, you can all get on a happier topic and turn even the sourest lemons into delicious, sunshiny lemonade. There's an inspiring force deep inside of you, and it can only be reveal through a trial.
Betsey 
Problem is, though, what do you do when you're needy? My tank's been running a little empty lately. Sometimes it's hard to give and focus on H's needs when I'm feeling needy myself. I am so tired too. I feel like I've done a lot of GALing and yet, I am still sad. I can usually turn myself around, but lately I've been low. Maybe I'll just start here: 
Thank you for these pearls, even if I haven't let them all sink in yet!