Alright GH! Sounds like you're making inroads... Now back off and give her time/space.. Just go about your normal business like nothings happened. And keep us posted!
Done. I already sense that she is pulling back herself after last night and in the past I think I would have reacted to that, even the very recent past. Also, I would probably have said something this morning like "I really enjoyed that blah, blah, blah..." I said nothing and as you said, just went about the morning "as if" nothing was different about last night.
I think what is starting to happen, and PM alludes to this although again, I am not far enough into it (and don't spoil the plot for me OT, lol) to know just where it's going, is that both of us are starting to understand that we can be comfortable BEING intimate or sexual or playful around each other. One funny thing I left out (or really didn't post all of) from last night was when I lifted her shirt (again, only to reveal her stomach) and pulled her to me she said "Hey, what, you think I'm going to pimp myself out to have you go to your car for me?" I of course said "Yes." to which she just laughed and gave in to my embrace and eventual kiss. Again, this kind of non-sarcastic, non-deprecating playfulness is something I have been trying pretty hard to introduce. It's not really been work except that I have to curb my natural instinct to be sarcastic and use self-deprecating humor.
One VERY interesting thing that was also said and I can't believe I glossed over it and didn't post was something W said after the first kiss and before the second hug/kiss. Again, I touched on it last night but there was more she said. "You know the past few weeks, months have been really hard on me and I am just now, in the past couple days starting to get happy again. I just can't believe one stupid night has ruined my year and life this much. I just can't believe I would let that happen..."
Um...again, even after she said it, and 15 minutes later when I posted I don't think it registered. One stupid night? That sounds like something more than she's admitted to in the past but who knows. The fact that she said it in such a casual way, not in the context of any heavy conversation, makes me think I may have it wrong but maybe not.
Oh well, in this case, I'm taking my own advice and just enjoying the positives and am not going to dwell on the negative. Hell, I don't even think it's a negative because last night, in those few minutes of embrace, kiss and little bit of talk, I felt connected to her in ways I haven't felt in a LONG time so I guess I just look at the whole thing as a big positive step, admission of PA or not. I was just REALLY good.
I can't help but think her saying she still needs a bit more time to "get there" with us, and the way she seemed like she really WANTED to be intimate with me last night but felt guilty or like there was some barrier left (it really did feel like that when she said she "missed me". It seemed like there was an unspoken "but" at the end of that sentence). There may still be more she needs to say before she can feel like I still want to be with her when I know the full truth. Speculation for sure but I have always believed this so it's nothing new. Like I said, IF we ML and she has not admitted to $ex with OM, I will probably believe that it was only an EA. She's not THAT good a liar.
So, I will continue reading this afternoon/evening and hopefully learn some good stuff.
Like I said, IF we ML and she has not admitted to $ex with OM, I will probably believe that it was only an EA. She's not THAT good a liar.
It may have been an EA, it may have been a PA. But, certainly she could be that good of a liar. Though, it would be more about her being in denial about herself than being fine with lying to you.
Don't set yourself up to crash and burn later in any case by making these invisible tests that she either passes or doesn't...
It is great that she is being playful. I certainly HOPE you see her flirting as encouragement...
Actually, I don't recall saying I was surprised. If my post suggested that, I mis-posted. I was amused that the day I get your book (and I do think of it as YOUR book) I have this/make this happen. I was not particularly surprised it "worked" because I have always understood your basic premise to be correct, I just haven't figured out until last night (or really the past week I think) how to actually DO what you have been suggesting. As is often said here, it's one thing to know, quite another to DO.
Quote: No one is telling you to coerce or force your W into anything. Just be a strong, sexual male and take some leadership. Geez.
This is the part I am taking time to get to. I was having trouble reconciling that stuff I posted about "no means no" with the "strong sexual male" stuff and wondering how to take leadership when she claims not to want to be led.
I now understand that she isn't saying she's not ready to be led, just not led to THAT, YET. There is much more to come before THAT and it's in that respect I can start to assert myself. I think in some subconscious way, that first story in PM about Karen and Ken really did have an effect on me. It made me open my eyes to what COULD be going on in my W's head and that maybe, even without know just what to do or when to do it, I can reach out to those more intimate parts of her psyche.
I just need to continue to build my confidence (never a strong point for me) and read. Thanks again for the recommendation OT.
It is not about how good a liar our WAS is. Mostly they are probably very bad liars. It is really all about US not wanting to believe the worst. So we choose to believe things we know are blatant lies. That is until we wake up.
As a result, as you try to put your M back together, trust is going to be a MAJOR issue (in my sitch too and I might post more on this later.) I find that as much as I want to believe what my H tells me, I've been lied to so many times.
Sorry for the reality check. Perhaps it was only an EA, but for the long-term health and happiness of your M, you're going to need to accept that it most likely was a PA and move on. I know it sucks but once you pass the hump of acceptance it gets easier.
Quote: It may have been an EA, it may have been a PA. But, certainly she could be that good of a liar. Though, it would be more about her being in denial about herself than being fine with lying to you.
Don't set yourself up to crash and burn later in any case by making these invisible tests that she either passes or doesn't...
OT, thanks for that. I don't THINK I am. I actually thought late last night, and again this morning, that her "stupid night" WAS an admission of PA and I was totally unaffected. I didn't get upset, I just couldn't help but see the overwhelming positives in what is happening. I think this time, I am truly ready to hear her if she needs to talk, or NOT hear her if she doesn't. I know what I said sounded like a test, and I guess it was, but I should have just left it at "I'm ready to leave the past in the past if she is" and move on.
Quote: It is great that she is being playful. I certainly HOPE you see her flirting as encouragement...
BIG time. She has NEVER been very playful but then again, neither have I. It's been a HUGE void in our life. I see that now. Sex and intimacy was always SO serious. Now I see that there is a whole other level(s) we never even explored.
I think I have always been consistent in saying that I accept, and HAVE accepted that she had a PA but was either in denial or lying about it. I am only recently suspecting that I COULD be wrong. I have tried to always be realistic about that especially since she has said many times that there is more to the story that I don't know. Our last R talk, she admitted to there being "physical" stuff to the affair but said it was NOT sex. I know there are a great many things you can do and not call it sex but to date, she denies intercourse. I don't deny that as a possibility, a good one at that.
In the recent past, I have learned that even though I think I accepted the reality of the "phantom" PA, I was still hurt when she admitted even the "other" physical aspects of the affair. I know I would be a fool to say I would not be affected by her admitting to whatever they did but I think as I see signs of US getting better, I am better able to accept whatever comes up about the past. I am more concerned about the future.
I also had to look inside myself to see if there was any resentment building as happens so often in reconciliation for LBS's. So far, I don't think I have any. I think my early adoption of the "I have my part to play in the fall of Rome" has helped me avoid some of that resentment. I am looking out for it because more than before, I see HER finally reaching out to me. Her kiss on my chest is literally the first such thing maybe in YEARS, really, I swear. She DOES NOT instigate physical contact...or at least she DIDN'T.
So, thanks for the warning and I hope I am aware of the pitfalls you speak of.
GH - I've been thinking a lot about your situation lately, and despite my greenish tinge from envy, it has had some other effects on me. The mental picture I have of you and W is of two people who were very close, and loved each other dearly, but failed to keep the fire going after the start of the relationship. In short, you became friends. The problem with men and women friends? We bore the crap out of each other - we've got nothing too exciting to say, because men and women are different critters. You lost your attractiveness to her by being a buddy, not a lover. Happens every day. So in our comfy, friendly, boring world comes OM. Even if he has little to offer in any other way, it lights a spark of attraction that women love like we love sex - to them, I think it IS sex. So your situation requires that you BE THAT GUY that can light the spark, and that's what others are urging you to do when they tell you to be a "take charge male". It doesn't mean rapist, it means leader. Leader as in set the tone for the evening. Leader as in be in charge and decisive. Leader as in decide WHEN it happens by pulling away when she expects you to push forward. Leader as in letting her know that you don't NEED sex, but if she's lucky, it might happen. Ever here people talk about how the Tango is a metaphor for sex and romance? Well, watch it sometime: the man controls the dance almost absolutely, pushing her away once for every time he pulls her forward, and at no time submitting to her until the end, when she submits as well. That's what good sex is: it starts days or hours before the crap in the porn movies, and has little to do with what people SAY - it's all about how people feel. Unless it's just crappy sex, which is masturbation with a partner. Your poor wife is guilty and insecure and scared of herself and your feelings about her, and probably has some performance anxiety of a sort - don't let it get you down. You can't talk your way out of everything.
If you Tango fifty times before you get to finish one dance, don't sweat it: It's the tango that counts, not the end of the song.....I always knew this and forgot when I fell into my black hole these past few years.
GH, what deezee is saying is the same stuff that David Cunningham pushes at his website www.makingherhappy.com. I bought his book, and it's got a few great ideas, but you can basically get everything in the book for free just by reading the archives of his daily emails. It's all about creating attraction in your W for you by being a real man, and I think he's right. I've had the chance to use a couple of his ideas and I think they've had an impact in my sitch.
The LORD is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth." (Psalm 145:18)
