Quote: I guess the other thing to identify in the poem is which woman is which. You assume the "fat" one is you but it COULD be her since it's that one that is getting "wronged" in the poem and she probably perceives herself in that role. Very complicated this all is as Yoda would say.
Oh no, I think there is no question that she means the fat one to be me: A. I'm fat. B. When my H and married, we agreed that neither of us liked me fat, and I would lose weight. He has made my life of the past nine years a life of leisure and free time, so that if I HAD been diligent, I could have done WAY more (I've lost 62 pounds -- but I have another 130 to go..) One of the main major reasons he fell out of love with me is my weight... so there is no question I'm the fat one... (And, she does NOT feel wronged; she feels (or did, dunno if she still does now) she is wronging ME, but choosing to do so.
And, one of the things he loves about her is she is not fat, she has a very good, very attractive figure. As he has always said, and has been saying in relation to her ({wryly} as she proves to be less than the perfect mate he first saw her as) he can stand the "bitch from h-ll" personality as long a the body is acceptable -- or he can deal with an overweight body if the personality is feminine and attractive... I struck out on both counts (by his lights). I actually have a bright and bubbly personality -- just too often masculine / direct / aggressive for him. I have been quite content to tone down my "masculine' side -- and he admits have done a great deal of work on it -- just that, combined with my weight -- too little, too late.
(By way of showing the personality thing... I would have edited it out, but for demonstration purposes... I started this message with "oh no" -- which is unnecessary and not particularly gracious... Instead of starting out with something delicate like: "I could see how that might be confusing..." I'm more direct. He has asked me, all along, to learn to use " delicacy and precision" in dealing with him or doing things in front of him. I do not actually conisder that an unreasonable request / demand, and I chose to try to do it for myself; but I was not diligent is making the changes... (I tend toward laziness {G})
He's a strange man, but that's okay, cause I'm a strange woman. I have always been content/willing to be working toward 'making myself over' (to a degree) to suit him. He suits me to a "t"!
My thread is under the Infidelity/Adultery section and is called Mea Maxima Culpa -- but I can't get the link to work.
Don't communicate with OW. Tell H you would very much appreciate it if the woman he is cheating on you with would have the class to QUIT BOTHERING YOU!!!! Let H have to leap to your defense rather than hers.
I don't entirely agree with the anti-snooping law. No snooping is proposed because knowing too much about the affair sometimes interferes with GAL and showing our spouses how good our R could be. BUT - knowledge is power and I agree it would be stupid to let him waltz off with the money and blow it all on lizard. And let's face it, H will probably thank you if he wakes up from this in the future and finds out you have preserved some financial sanity for you both.
I do not believe it is healthy for a wife to submit to a H when he is NOT performing his duties as head of the household. Clearly your H is not, by abandoning you for OW and running up all this debt. He's also given you pretty clear indications that he's suicidally depressed and needs help.
Now - the tricky part is, how to take steps to safeguard the finances and at the same time, not set him off. It may not be entirely possible to do that, but I would talk to your attorney about the legality of taking the following steps:
Transfer the cash from a joint account into one in your name only. H will be furious when he finds out but simply calmly state that he has told you in the past he would blow it and commit suicide, that you didn't feel safe with it in his control, and that you will happily provide him with an accounting so he can know you aren't doing anything inappropriate with the money.
- Cancel any joint credit cards that you can - don't let him rack up any further debt that you could be stuck with.
- Plan for the worst - hopefully it won't happen, but do you have a plan for how you would handle this debt if h doesn't come home? Should you start working on a plan to raise your income? Is there housing equity or retirement funds? I assume the financial planners have gone over all this with you.
- If the credit cards H has with him are joint cards, you could consider freezing them (or reporting them stolen?) if he doesn't return on time. At the very least, monitor activity on them so you know if he's starting to run them way up.
Thanks for answering kml. I like your suggestions, but can't put any of them into practice...
Quote: Don't communicate with OW. Tell H you would very much appreciate it if the woman he is cheating on you with would have the class to QUIT BOTHERING YOU!!!! Let H have to leap to your defense rather than hers.
{sigh} Yeah, my mom says ignore her too, it will drive her nuts... In the car on the way home from the very helpful lawyer (who, unfortunately has his office about a trillion miles away...), I thought: ah! I should write to her just this: Do you truly think of H this way?
Quote: I don't entirely agree with the anti-snooping law. No snooping is proposed because knowing too much about the affair sometimes interferes with GAL and showing our spouses how good our R could be.
If he doesn't know I'm snooping, how does he see it affecting how good our relationship could be? I will admit if does interfere with my life; if I'm spending time hovering outside his office door listening to him coo to her -- or plot nasty tricks against me -- it's taking up time I could better use reading this forum... but if I had NOT hung around and learned of the plot, I would be feeling sorry and supportive of him spending a ton of money flying to England to spend time with her! I think knowing it's a trick against me is more worthwhile because it helps me detach from him... it reminds me (SO clearly) that if his lips are moving, he's lying to me...
Quote: BUT - knowledge is power and I agree it would be stupid to let him waltz off with the money and blow it all on lizard. And let's face it, H will probably thank you if he wakes up from this in the future and finds out you have preserved some financial sanity for you both.
I hope so. He's just textbook MLC, from all I've read here.... Absolutely TEXTbook! (My mom and a dear friend are pointing out that I tend to "pick up" wounded animals -- and wounded men -- and try to heal them. Well, my beloved H is surely a wounded man; I have alway desired to heal him.... But it may be that my lesson in this marriage is to NOT pick a wounded man! {sigh} (Interestingly, talking to my mom just now -- about answering the lizard -- I realized the OW is a wounded lizard too... That's how I met her, helping her!! Bit of a breakthrough thought there... Have to work on it and figure out what it means for me...
Quote: do not believe it is healthy for a wife to submit to a H when he is NOT performing his duties as head of the household. Clearly your H is not, by abandoning you for OW and running up all this debt. He's also given you pretty clear indications that he's suicidally depressed and needs help.
Well, except for not loving me (except "as a family member" ) and, of course the blatant thing of the mistress -- he IS acting as head of the household. He is still taking wonderful care of me; he is protective ({eye roll} except of my feelings where the lizard is concerned -- and even there, he is doing his utmost to protect my feelings, except where it conflicts with her or his relationship with her). The running up of debt was for my benefit too -- *I* am the one he took , and is taking, on cruises; he takes me out to lunch twice a week, and dinner once a week scheduled and many other times just so I don't have to cook... He is providing me with everything I could want (except his love, devotion, and fidelity... {eye roll})
As for suicidally depressed? He has been since I met him -- he was gearing up to kill himself (as he saw no reason to go on)... till I showed up and became his reason for living... (Did I mention he's a wounded man?) (Wanna bet it's painful to hear him tell HER the EXACT same things he told me?)
Quote: Transfer the cash from a joint account into one in your name only. H will be furious when he finds out but simply calmly state that he has told you in the past he would blow it and commit suicide, that you didn't feel safe with it in his control, and that you will happily provide him with an accounting so he can know you aren't doing anything inappropriate with the money.
Unforutnately we have no joint accounts. I have my own savings and checking and money market; but the bulk of "our" money is in his individual accounts... I asked him to transfer half the money market to my account and he flat-out refused...
Quote: - Cancel any joint credit cards that you can - don't let him rack up any further debt that you could be stuck with.
We have no joint cards -- but he has (over the years) gotten cards in my name, and rolled money onto and off of them (we get lots of offers for 0% interest, and so we roll our debt over as we pay it down... Right now, the debt is split at about $36k on credit cards in my name, and $65k on cards in in his or the business's name.
Quote: - Plan for the worst - hopefully it won't happen, but do you have a plan for how you would handle this debt if h doesn't come home? Should you start working on a plan to raise your income? Is there housing equity or retirement funds? I assume the financial planners have gone over all this with you.
If he doesn't come home... no. I actually (mostly) believe him that he WILL come home. If he doesn't, it's call the police time! (I guess... I'd have to file immediately for divorce and protection against his financial misdeeds..
Quote: - If the credit cards H has with him are joint cards, you could consider freezing them (or reporting them stolen?) if he doesn't return on time. At the very least, monitor activity on them so you know if he's starting to run them way up.
No joint cards. (I am a "user" on his AMEX, and he on mine -- but I could chuck him off mine with a phone call -- oh, and as a matter of fact, he doesn't even have that card with him... So he has only his own (usual) cards with him (he carries just three cards; the rest are stored away at home, unactivated!) Thank you kml, you've just led me to a another bit of information that helps me feel better!
My thread is under the Infidelity/Adultery section and is called Mea Maxima Culpa -- but I can't get the link to work.
Quote: If he doesn't know I'm snooping, how does he see it affecting how good our relationship could be?
The danger lies in how it affects our moods, and therefore interferes with our DBing - for instance, if I snoop and see H called OW this afternoon, I'm likely to be a bit snippy with him when he gets home. All he knows is I'm in a bad mood!
Quote: Well, except for not loving me (except "as a family member" ) and, of course the blatant thing of the mistress -- he IS acting as head of the household. He is still taking wonderful care of me; he is protective ({eye roll} except of my feelings where the lizard is concerned -- and even there, he is doing his utmost to protect my feelings, except where it conflicts with her or his relationship with her). The running up of debt was for my benefit too -- *I* am the one he took , and is taking, on cruises; he takes me out to lunch twice a week, and dinner once a week scheduled and many other times just so I don't have to cook... He is providing me with everything I could want
Nooooo....if he WAS acting as responsible head of the household, he would NOT be running up $35,000 of credit card debt in your name to pay for expendibles like restaurant meals and cruises. That's the worst kind of financial irresponsibility, and those meals will end up costing you many times their original cost by the time those cards and interest get paid. You put your life in his hands and HE is screwing it up. (BTW - this has nothing to do with you being fat. yes, I'll agree, you have a duty TO YOURSELF to do your best to be healthy, and that's a marital obligation too. But he MARRIED you when you were fat, so that obviously wasn't an absolute deal-breaker for him then. It's just his convenient excuse now for his inexcusable behavior.)
I suspect you have put this faith in your H as head of household because you didn't want to have to think about realities like "gee, we can't afford to take this cruise or eat out again this month". Unfortunately, putting your head in the sand has now put you in a really bad financial position.
How will you get out of this hole? First, you need to figure out some way to get H to pay some of that cash on hand to YOUR credit cards. Realistically, it may take legal action to get this, and he may spend it all before you can freeze the funds if you don't take legal action soon - what does your attorney say?
Second, you probably need to think about finding work - some way to make an income. The odds that you will get stuck with some or all of that debt is very high.
Third - if things are going to work out with your H, you will have to move forward to a new R, not return to the old one. The old one includes a depressed guy who was dealing with his feelings of inadequacy by overspending, and then the stress of debt was making him more depressed. Consider in the future, if things get better with him, having him listen with you to the Dave Ramsey radio show or tapes - an emphasis on debt-free living that would give you both hope, I'm sure.
I don't mean to sound harsh - I actually think thewre is a lot of hope in your sitch - but it won't get healthy until the ostrich pulls her head out of the sound (which you seem to be doing).
Quote: The danger lies in how it affects our moods, and therefore interferes with our DBing - for instance, if I snoop and see H called OW this afternoon, I'm likely to be a bit snippy with him when he gets home. All he knows is I'm in a bad mood!
Oh man, I see today exactly what you mean by this... I haven't heard from him in two days, and my paranoia was in super-duper overdrive! But the lawyer visit calmed me down tremendously (really nice lawyer, really mediocre news, but having it straight and pretty settled in my head is actually quite calming!)
So, I had my first water aerobics class at the Y today, lot of fun, and I didn't pass out! but when I got home to this empty empty house, and was on the computer, I decided to finish copying the messages I've snooped into the "long file" of their discussions... Oh MAN that's painful...
And reading his words about how he is plotting with her (all the TIME, it seems!) is, as you said, destructive... I am missing him terribly, and WILDLY suspicious, and afraid he may bolt -- I even went looking at the online statements for our credit cards (okay, for HIS credit cards!) to see what he was doing over there... Didn't find anything (I suppose it takes a while for the overseas charges to show up anyway), but I was feeling quite bad, and decided, as it is just 9:30 p.m. there, I would call -- you know... for business reasons... THAT'S the ticket!
He was (seemingly) glad to hear from me; we discussed the business stuff, he said he misses me; he said, again, that things are awkward with her -- but he can't say why cause it's a very small apartment, and she had company over for dinner right then.
I said I had skype-chatted him some stuff; had he gotten it? No. (Which makes me more suspicious of HER -- it's her computer, and my skype shows the stuff went through to his account; but... he hasn't gotten it?)
(He says he cannot get the cell phone to work still.)
I asked if he'd gotten his email working, he said no. I said I really wanted him to read the message she'd sent me twice -- and he said, well, we'd discuss it when he comes home; he didn't want to try tro deal with it there. He suggested I just not to answer it... I said, well, um, I did -- just one line but I answered it. (I sent her: "Do you truly see H this way?" I didn't tell him what I sent though, not till he reads the "poem" she sent me. I'll be interested to see if she answers me.. I know... bad bad bad... I don't KNOW how to stop interacting... Well, I guess I know, I'm just not strong enough yet to stop...)
We discussed the talk he had with her physicist friend (H is an amateur physicist) and how that went...
He and I had just a nice regular talk (told about the Y -- he was pleased!), I'm not sure I feel better, but I feel less dreadful... (I remember in one of Michele's books, she said many people in our situations said that, even with the stress, pain, anger, and emotional upset, it felt better to be WITH the spouse than to be away... That's how I feel...
(We talked, a few days before he left, and I said I noticed that I was following him up and down the stairs, like a puppy...That it DOES make me feel better to be near him, and so I am 'trimming my sails to his wind.' And bless his twisted, lying little heart -- he started making a point of telling me when he was leaving, and how long he'd be upstairs or downstairs, so I could come along... (And I told him once recently, when we were talking in bed -- that there is this old old saying; "love is a spaniel that prefers blows from one hand to caresses from another...")
So, part success: the GAL of the Y, and the lunch tomorrow with my neighbor. Part not-so-successful: answering her, and letting him know I miss him (but it was wonderful to hear he misses me too!).
My thread is under the Infidelity/Adultery section and is called Mea Maxima Culpa -- but I can't get the link to work.
I decided to answer her. (Okay, I know it's bad, I know it's wrong, I know it's foolish -- but sometimes yah just HAVE to touch that stove to see if hot still burns, yah know?)
(Oh, god I am being SOOOOOO naive!)
After she sent that weird poem-thing (twice!), I answered her with just this:
Quote: Do you truly see H this way?
She answered:
Quote: I just can't be a husband-stealing bitch, [Neo's Wife]. Can you understand that? I just CAN'T. I could not live with myself.
So this morning, after thinking about it (well, sleeping on it, I wrote it at 4 a.m.; sent it at 8.) I sent this:
Quote: I miss you terribly too.
One's decisions and choices, and the ramifications of those decisions and choices, define the person. You have written and said to me repeatedly you do not want to be a home-wrecker. I would say to you only: *half of MY home is not AT home.* What, then, are your decisions and choices and their ramifications?
(And you didn't answer: Do you truly see H this way?)
Neo's WIfe
Gotta keep chanting to myself: believe NOTHING you hear, and only HALF of what you see! Maybe that will help.
{sigh}
Waiting for my fingers to start burnin'.....
Neo's Wife
My thread is under the Infidelity/Adultery section and is called Mea Maxima Culpa -- but I can't get the link to work.
Just reading back over all-y'all's helpful messages...
Quote: kml wrote: Don't communicate with OW. Tell H you would very much appreciate it if the woman he is cheating on you with would have the class to QUIT BOTHERING YOU!!!! Let H have to leap to your defense rather than hers.
kml, he would NOT leap to my defense -- his concern in wanting to see my messages to her (before I sent them) has been to prevent my messages from upsetting HER! {sigh} He, at one point, denied her permission to write to me, despite her unhappiness about that, because she was getting hysterical over her misperceptions of what I was writing... (he even agreed she was MIS-perceiving -- but her hysterics (directed only at him) always became MY fault , so I finally refused to contact her...
Because i had been hopeless about the M; because I completely believed it was entirely over ; I was trying to help him get her... having found Michele W-D -- I am now *COMPLETELY* over THAT! (And yes, I know, I'm committing to doing Michele's stuff -- and contacting the lizard is NOT okay... Working on that.)
Finished DR last night, and have begun it again. Will actually DO the exercises and writing goals and all she suggests now.
My thread is under the Infidelity/Adultery section and is called Mea Maxima Culpa -- but I can't get the link to work.
The blank is the ex-boyfriend (same name as my H) whom she is considering marrying (!) or so she says! But of course I DON'T believe her, because she wrote to my H (after a couple weeks at the other ____'s house just a few days before my H went to her place) that she was just FED UP; but never wrote what she was fed up about (I expect discussed with my H cause he asked in an email) ... Her ex has NEVER been sufficient or satisfying for her -- which is why I (and then my H) were counseling her to get away from him...)
Quote: The other ____ is really very lovely, Neo's_Wife . And I CAN'T be a home-wrecker.
And I miss you.
>(And you didn't answer: Do you truly see H this way?)
No, I don't. He is a lovely person.
Last edited by Jamesjohn; 05/27/0603:50 PM.
My thread is under the Infidelity/Adultery section and is called Mea Maxima Culpa -- but I can't get the link to work.
-- it's taking up time I could better use reading this forum... but if I had NOT hung around and learned of the plot, I would be feeling sorry and supportive of him spending a ton of money flying to England to spend time with her! I think knowing it's a trick against me is more worthwhile because it helps me detach from him... it reminds me (SO clearly) that if his lips are moving, he's lying to me...
but when I got home to this empty empty house, and was on the computer, I decided to finish copying the messages I've snooped into the "long file" of their discussions... Oh MAN that's painful...