Are you committed to doing everything you possibly can to save your marriage? Because I am not getting that from your posts. If you are committed to saving your marriage, here are a few things you can do, to start with:
1) Stop snooping 2) Stop believing what he says [And what the e-mails said (both the good and the bad things) You can disregard 100% of what your H says right now, and at least 50% of what he does. Stop making what he says mean anything. For me, I choose to believe only what brings me joy. Everything else is just noise, like passing gas. Ignore it.] 3) Stop expecting him to tell the truth right now. Stop expecting him to lie. Stop expecting anything. 4) Start taking care of yourself. Start figuring out what you like, what you want, what makes you happy.
If you concentrate on just these 4 things, that will be enough for a while. Try to see if everything you say and do can be managed using these 4 points.
Meanwhile, you did a really great job of not reacting to him when you spoke with him on the phone. That is great, a really good start. Try to add one more thing when you are interacting with him. Try to just listen, rather than respond and dialogue. Affirm him and agree with him about everything he says. If you can't agree, try some affirmative "uh-huh's" like you are listening so he will continue to talk. Digest the information on your own. Observe and listen. Do not react. Especially do not "believe" what he is saying because it will change moment to moment.
Nonetheless, with that said, it is clear that your H is confused and searching for answers. Some of the things he is saying are positive about him wanting to continue your M. Don't discount those, as you have been. Try to remain positive. If you want a chance to save your marriage, stop focusing on divorce planning and planning for a future without him. Do the above (and all of the techniques in Divorce Remedy as you see fit) and see what happens in a few months. Take a deep breath. Take it a day at a time. You are in a big transition, but it is all for the good in the long run. I promise. You can do this.
PositivelyListening ************************************** When one door of happiness closes, another one opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us. - Helen Keller
I agree with PL. You are a snooping addict and the only way to stop is to just go cold turkey. The best way to do that is to understand that YOU ALREADY KNOW enough so stop. You know he's having an affair and you know he's confused. You know he's in another country seeing her and you know things are not that good right now. SO STOP.
The real problem is that you somehow think things hinge on what you find out from snooping. Like this...
Quote: If I had not snooped, I would think the truth really WAS that she was going to marry her ex-boyfriend, and my H ("deeply depressed and desperate") really WAS going to England to try to win her back -- instead of KNOWING it was a plot from start to finish -- that he INTENDED to mislead me into thinking she was leaving him, and he "had" to try to win her back, and so get MY support for HIS damaging me/us by spending several thousand dollars on his "trip to win her back."
If you had not snooped, AND STILL STARTED POSTING HERE, you would probably be well on your way to GAL and doing something for yourself right now instead of STILL being focused on him and OW. You have to understand that this all hinges on what YOU DO and then WHAT he decides to open up to you about. All this stuff you're finding out is only good for court but does VERY little to help and a WHOLE lot to hurt your psyche.
You are not going to force him to come back. This isn't Parry Mason or Murder She Wrote where at the end you get to stand in the living room and reveal your evidence to a breathless audience of your H, who will then, once faced with irrefutable proof of his evil doings, repent and crawl to you, begging for forgiveness. It won't go that way.
I totally understand protecting yourself, but there is a balance and you have clearly tipped that WAY off by all the snooping and such.
Like PL said, you need to decide which is more important, saving your M, or being in the "know" about every little detail of what H is doing. The only thing that really matters is that H is not doing YOU right now and you should be trying to rectify that situation, starting with rectifying yourself.
This is a TOUGH thing you're doing and it takes a LOT of guts and, well, balls to sit where you are and endure what you're enduring. I just want YOU to want to make it easier on yourself, and then to do what needs to be done, like GAL, read more and smile at the birds and trees at least once today.
Quote: Are you committed to doing everything you possibly can to save your marriage? Because I am not getting that from your posts.
Oh, I am SO working on getting there! I am still flailing about (emotionally) DO I want him back? and most times I do and then I try to imagine HOW I will get to that point and if it’s even possible and ... well... it’s an old song-and-dance on the forum...
Quote: If you are committed to saving your marriage, here are a few things you can do, to start with: 1) Stop snooping 2) Stop believing what he says [And what the e-mails said (both the good and the bad things) You can disregard 100% of what your H says right now, and at least 50% of what he does. Stop making what he says mean anything. For me, I choose to believe only what brings me joy. Everything else is just noise, like passing gas. Ignore it.] 3) Stop expecting him to tell the truth right now. Stop expecting him to lie. Stop expecting anything. 4) Start taking care of yourself. Start figuring out what you like, what you want, what makes you happy.
Thank you SO much Positively! I really needed to read your and Grasshopper’s messages this morning – WHILE I was dealing with him at her place... She had emailed me while I was out yesterday, saying that he HAD tried to reach me, but his email wasn’t working from there (and he doesn’t know why). I emailed her back, cordially, but business-like asking her to let him know... a bunch of business stuff that I would be doing to day unless he directed otherwise (responding to customers). I also wrote that he could call me as early as he wished this morning, as I had had a bad night and would be going to bed early.
He didn’t call; I woke early, and decided to call him. I asked if he had seen the message and should I proceed with the customer stuff I’d as I’d emailed. He said yes, go ahead (and use Priority mail.... and blah blah blah – just work stuff). I asked how it was going/how was he and he kinda stumbled and said it was awkward and I said .. Oh is it awkward to talk or going awkwardly? He said kind-of both.
I asked him if he had seen the message SHE sent me twice, and said that I did not want to answer her until he had seen it and directed me what/if he wanted me to answer... (He has been keeping us separate/incommunicado because she has hysterics and causes him problems when she communicates with me.) (The reason I decided to call this a.m. was she re-sent me the “poem” (which I have posted in the message immediately following): she sent it to me at around the time of his arrival in England (and I immediately forwarded it to his email for review / comment / directions on how he wanted me to handle it), and then again this morning (as I had not answered the first sending.) He said no, he had not seen it, as he could not reach his email.
Quote: If you concentrate on just these 4 things, that will be enough for a while. Try to see if everything you say and do can be managed using these 4 points.
I will do so.
Quote: Meanwhile, you did a really great job of not reacting to him when you spoke with him on the phone. That is great, a really good start. Try to add one more thing when you are interacting with him. Try to just listen, rather than respond and dialogue. Affirm him and agree with him about everything he says. If you can't agree, try some affirmative "uh-huh's" like you are listening so he will continue to talk. Digest the information on your own. Observe and listen. Do not react. Especially do not "believe" what he is saying because it will change moment to moment.
Great advice – I’m printing it out to post by the phone!
Quote: Nonetheless, with that said, it is clear that your H is confused and searching for answers. Some of the things he is saying are positive about him wanting to continue your M. Don't discount those, as you have been. Try to remain positive. If you want a chance to save your marriage, stop focusing on divorce planning and planning for a future without him.
THAT is hard -- I met with two financial planners yesterday, and meet with a lawyer today... I guess, since H is, so far, committed to two years before divorce, I CAN wait to protect myself... except the financial planners just BLANCHED at our situation and said I needed to act now/right away to protect my self... I'll see what the lawyer says today before deciding if I dare leave myself unprotected...
Quote: Do the above (and all of the techniques in Divorce Remedy as you see fit) and see what happens in a few months. Take a deep breath. Take it a day at a time. You are in a big transition, but it is all for the good in the long run. I promise. You can do this.
Oh, my heart just QUAILS at the idea of a few months of this hell! I called my mom last night and said I finally understand, in my gut, what she meant when she said that after my dad died it felt like an amputation... That you keep reaching in your mind for him.. and he's NOT there!
My thread is under the Infidelity/Adultery section and is called Mea Maxima Culpa -- but I can't get the link to work.
The old Dom entered the coffee shop, On a gray and cold November day. To answer the call of a younger brother Dom, And to hear what it was that he would say.
For he had heard through Leather grapevine, Of a relationship and collar, both at risk of being lost. He yearned to help them, Dom and sub, And cared not what price it might cost.
They took a table in the shadows, away from the crowd, And their coffee they did accept. The old Dom prepared to hear his story, And if he could heal a relationship, and so a love be kept.
"When we first met," the young Dom said, "She was submissive and yielding unto my will. She had her faults I admit and so did I. But each of us would change we said, so our dreams fulfill.
But the one thing that I asked of her she has not changed. Nor can I see any attempt to try. I have spoken and ordered her to tend to this, And still she does my wishes defy.
"The time has come to cut my losses," said the young Dom. "To remove my collar and from this woman part. Long have I waited in hopes that she would to my wishes submit. It is time to remove this woman from my heart."
The old Dom sat and considered his young friend's words, And in puzzlement he shook his head For he knew the woman who so proudly claimed him as hers. A true submissive, who would go where ever her Master lead.
"I don't understand " said the old gray headed Dom. "In what manner does she your wishes defy? She is not disobedient, unfaithful, unsubmissive or rude. The woman loves you with the purity of a clear summers sky."
The young Dom smiled and said, "When I collared her those months ago, spoke of this and but she brushed it away, Not as a submissive but as a brat. She has not conformed to my wishes in the least since that day, For still, this woman is fat."
The old Dom sat stunned, not believing his ears. For he knew this woman and respected her as his friend. She was a BBW it was true, but a true submissive as well. Who was proud to her knee unto this man bend.
My thread is under the Infidelity/Adultery section and is called Mea Maxima Culpa -- but I can't get the link to work.
"Fat?" asked the old and gray headed Dom. Hoping his ears had this man's words misunderstood. "You would cast her aside without care or regard? Because on this promise she could not make good?"
"A woman submissive is a woman who loves, In a special and magical way. Her weight she cannot always conform or control, And for this an awful price she is forced to pay."
"You want a model like submissive to wear your collar. But it was not to a model your collar you gave. She is what she is, a woman of worth and of love, And has found value in your collar, and in being your slave."
"It is not the flesh that a submissive wears, That gives to her that most special of worth. It's the love, the passion, the hunger to honor , And yet all your eyes can see is her girth."
"What I want is a woman who is worthy of me." said the young Dom. "One with the figure of an hour glass who I can place on my arm, One who is the match of the Dom that I know that I am. One who will make me the envy of others and bring them to play, like a charm."
The old Dom drew a deep breath, and with a sigh understood. "What you want is not a charm, but bait, You would cast aside a woman who loves you with all of her heart. To seek out one who I predict you will one day come to hate."
"Still, if these are your true feelings then I must agree, The relationship is gone, and clearly you have cast it aside. But before you tell her, heed well my words, For what ever wisdom in them I might provide."
"You seek to end this relationship, and so you shall, To this other woman of your dreams pursue. And you feel she shall make you happy, honored, respected and loved, That she will give you what you feel is your due."
"Know that as you cast away what you have, To seek one whose love will fade like a forgotten dream. And before you tell this woman who has served you and done you no wrong, And before you hear her first betrayed and anguished screams."
"Know that this woman whom you cast aside this day, And whose love you would treat as you would an old shoe. It is not her that is unworthy of your collar my friend. The one who is unworthy...is you!"
By SirWolfr1 Dated: May 16, 2006 Copyright pending.
My thread is under the Infidelity/Adultery section and is called Mea Maxima Culpa -- but I can't get the link to work.
Quote: I agree with PL. You are a snooping addict and the only way to stop is to just go cold turkey. The best way to do that is to understand that YOU ALREADY KNOW enough so stop. You know he's having an affair and you know he's confused. You know he's in another country seeing her and you know things are not that good right now. SO STOP.
I was horrified (beyond all my imaginings) to discover yesterday, that we are NOT, as I thought I knew, a “mere” {shudder) $45,000 in debt – we are $95,000 in debt!!! (Not including the mortgage.) We do NOT, as I thought I had understood from him (for these past couple years), have enough cash on hand to pay off nearly all our debt if we needed to immediately – because apparently nearly half of our ‘cash on hand” is cash advances, i.e., part of the debt. Now, granted – that makes part of it a “wash” because the debt can be paid off by the borrowed “cash” – IF (and it’s a big if!) he doesn’t lose his mind and spend it all (I think! I hope! he won’t do that. I think he has still enough sanity not to do so -- but if he did -- that leaves ME a widow with more debt that I’ve ever known!)
(His vague plan / desire / wish which he mentioned in passing, and then disavowed as merely wishful thinking on his part, was to take the cash-on-hand, and just run away, live on it till it ran out an dthen kill himself -- and since he has been suicidal all his life, that is NOT "just talk" -- one planner, when I described this, said: "my W is a psychologist, and she says that people who talk about suicide don't do it." I said, gently, "you can ask her about this, but people who have worked out exactly in detail HOW they are going to do it, usually DO do it.." (I managed, recently, when he was sunk very deep into depression to coax him into talking to me about it -- hee would not tell me WHERE he intended to do it -- but he did tell me the method he had chosen, and how it would work (helium, enclosed space etc.) This is NOT just histrionics on his part... {sigh})
Quote: If you had not snooped, AND STILL STARTED POSTING HERE, you would probably be well on your way to GAL and doing something for yourself right now instead of STILL being focused on him and OW. You have to understand that this all hinges on what YOU DO and then WHAT he decides to open up to you about. All this stuff you're finding out is only good for court but does VERY little to help and a WHOLE lot to hurt your psyche.
Yes, I do – but I am leaving myself open to a huge financial disaster if I do not stay aware... although, as one planner put it: ”what can you DO? You don’t have access or control of the money You need to get a job, right away and start preparing yourself, no matter what!"
Quote: I totally understand protecting yourself, but there is a balance and you have clearly tipped that WAY off by all the snooping and such. Like PL said, you need to decide which is more important, saving your M, or being in the "know" about every little detail of what H is doing. The only thing that really matters is that H is not doing YOU right now and you should be trying to rectify that situation, starting with rectifying yourself.
Yes. I am doing so. I am thinking very hard about whether, or how much, to quit snooping. I think I recognize – as with all plans – if I do not commit completely and do DB all the way, I am harming my chances of success. I’m hoping the lawyer consult will help me ease my mind.
Quote: This is a TOUGH thing you're doing and it takes a LOT of guts and, well, balls to sit where you are and endure what you're enduring. I just want YOU to want to make it easier on yourself, and then to do what needs to be done, like GAL, read more and smile at the birds and trees at least once today.
The planner I liked said that my plan (to try to win him back) was extremely hard, and I must be very strong! I said, thankfully, yes I am very strong!
I spent a couple hours on the phone last night with a good friend (who is on my private Yahoo support group/list). She had written the following (W is me) (she and my mom are astrologers, so I get a lot of such advice:
Quote: Hmmm.....now how's this for a scenario of Neptunian proportions replete with roleplaying, drama, mystery, and intrigue. H has not felt that W was worthy of him for a long while. The lizard woman enters the picture by W's invite wherein H agrees to assist lizard in getting rid of boyfriend. But Neptunian opportunity knocks and the plot is hatched. H will force transformation of W through elaborate plot with lizard which will ultimately be to benefit of all. These 3 players are all very intelligent and can go beyond the usual intrigue that lowly humans would be capable of in normal life. Pluto and Neptune are great assistance in the wings with foggy backlight. But it is mainly the creativity of H and lizard that scheme this play to reach the ultimate aim.
Sound nuts? No more nuts than watching this unfold and taking it as reality. I'm reminded of A Midsummer Night's Dream.
Oh man. I actually wish this WERE a plot by H to change me -- I can DO that! I just don't know if I will still want him when it's the curtain falls at the end!
My thread is under the Infidelity/Adultery section and is called Mea Maxima Culpa -- but I can't get the link to work.
maybe I should clarify about that 'poem" -- we're NOT particularly into BDSM or collaring or all that (although it appears as if the lizard is into that, to a much greater extent!) but we wholly support and are committed to the H being the leader of the family; the wife being willingly subordinate to him in most things.
My thread is under the Infidelity/Adultery section and is called Mea Maxima Culpa -- but I can't get the link to work.
Quote: maybe I should clarify about that 'poem" -- we're NOT particularly into BDSM or collaring or all that (although it appears as if the lizard is into that, to a much greater extent!) but we wholly support and are committed to the H being the leader of the family; the wife being willingly subordinate to him in most things.
Um...I don't really know what to say to that. The poem was a little, well VERY strange to me but with this disclaimer, I guess it's not so strange to you. I don't mean to pass judgment but I think your marriage has dynamics going on that make giving advice, or at least advice based on DB and such, a little hard.
Also, when you say "WE" wholly support and are committed to the H being the leader of the family... I can't help but to immediately have thought you were referring to you and OW, not you and H because it seems obvious that H would support that. WERE you referring to her?
Also, if I am to cast aside my puzzlement at what all this means in terms of my advice to you, and just try to actually give you some, I would start with the poem. Do you take that as OW trying to tell you why H is "leaving" you? That you are fat and not submissive enough? Also, in the end, it suggests that the person seeking advice (H) is a fool for doing what he seeks to do, does it not? Strange for OW to suggest this.
As for the financial stuff, I agree that again, it complicates things as far as advice goes because there seems to be a lot more going on that is very specific to your life that generic advice just doesn't do justice to.
Thanks so much... Yeah, the lizard is VERY strange! Well, when I wrote: "WE" wholly support and are committed to the H being the leader of the family: I meant H and I -- we're both "anti-feminist" -- but it also applies to the lizard...
Quote: Also, if I am to cast aside my puzzlement at what all this means in terms of my advice to you, and just try to actually give you some, I would start with the poem. Do you take that as OW trying to tell you why H is "leaving" you? That you are fat and not submissive enough? Also, in the end, it suggests that the person seeking advice (H) is a fool for doing what he seeks to do, does it not? Strange for OW to suggest this.
Yeah, that's what has me entirely baffled! (And waiting /hoping for some advice from H about it.) Is she trying to imply that she also/already knows that it cannot possibly work between H and her? Is she trying to imply that I am the wonderful injured innocent in all this, who had been faithful and true to my H and is being "rewarded" by his betrayal? (I'm NOT innocent; I take seriously that I DID commit to lose the weight, and I failed in my commitment to him. We both, he and I, see that as a very bad thing!) Is she implying that HE is being a shallow jerk for dumping me and taking up with her, even though she will turn out unsatisfactory?
I just don't know WHAT she could be intending by it. And I am not answering it yet -- even though she sent it to me *again* this morning. I'm hoping he will get his email working and read it.
I was up in the middle of the night last night, thinking of writing something like:
Quote: Yes, I miss you terribly too.
I would add only: people are judged by the ramifications of their actions and decisions. You have stated that you absolutely do NOT want to be perceived or judged as a home wrecker. I would say only: *half of MY home is not AT home.* What are the ramifications of your actions and decisions?
But, that would send her into hysterics (did I mention she's weird?!), and damage his "vacation" with her. And I suppose also NOT be in keeping with Michele's DB principles. I am constantly reminding myself that the OW is NOT the problem... and I need to forget she exists and concentrate on DB... But OH! It's hard! She was such a friend, we enjoyed each other's company so tremendously (even in the midst of them falling in love in front of me -- she and I REALLY liked each other!) H is sad that this "thing" {eye roll} has damaged her and my friendship too...
Please let me add, though. Generic advice is very, very welcome -- so much of my reading here has been so helpful because I do begin to see that we're not so "special," so different, so odd... I'm feeling SO much better to read about MLC -- and all the things my H is saying are the things all the OTHER WASs are saying too! It's NOT some weird twisted craziness on his part... It's a typical weird twisted craziness that lots of people are going through!
My thread is under the Infidelity/Adultery section and is called Mea Maxima Culpa -- but I can't get the link to work.
Quote: I meant H and I -- we're both "anti-feminist" -- but it also applies to the lizard...
Ok, I guess I just don't really agree that not submitting to your H's will is "feminist". There seems like there is somewhere in between but that is neither here nor there...back to your sitch.
I guess the other thing to identify in the poem is which woman is which. You assume the "fat" one is you but it COULD be her since it's that one that is getting "wronged" in the poem and she probably percieves herself in that role. Very complicated this all is as Yoda would say.
