Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums Infidelity/Extramarital Affairs/Jealousy Positively new thread - how do you deal with this?

Well, GH, this is a silly thing to argue about (and on PL's thread, no less), but I don't agree with this:

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A little over a week ago, you were ready to walk, and really, you still may be, but if that happened, and you ended up walking away, then you would have in effect, been wrong in that the A still continues and you W did not leave him.

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My consideration of walking away wasn't based on "giving up" because she was still with the OM. It was based on whether or not I want her back after she's done with the OM. Her R with the OM was, in my opinion (and hers in her saner moments) always doomed.

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You see my point. You CHOSE to make what you found a positive. Most of us have a REALLY hard time doing that.

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That's true, but it's because I found info that was easy to see in a positive light. If I had discovered a text to OM from W that was along the lines of "Sex with you last night was so amazing; my H was always so boring in bed and he has such a small winkie," then I doubt I would have been calmly pulling out a solutions journal and making notes to read Kama Sutra and order some "natural male enhancement." I would have been in anguish, which is what believing_isaiah has been describing from when she read similar emails from her H to the OW.

By the way, the snooping of the bank statements was done early on after she left to protect myself financially (something I think is wise for those worried about a S running up a big debt and stiffing them with it), and the only time I snooped on her phone was when I took her to the ER a month ago and OM was calling her every 5 minutes (literally 14 emails and texts in two hours) and I took her phone so she could rest after being up all night and getting a morphine shot. I didn't snoop on a regular basis, and again, I generally agree that snooping is a really bad idea.

Hi GH and all,

Thanks so much for your reminders about snooping. I am good about reminding others not to do it, but the weak human obsessive part of me sometimes lurks around doing unhelpful things... Of this great dialogue (thanks pmd, RB and GH) this really sums up where I want to stand:

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I just think that snooping is paying ultimate respect to the affair and the idea that the more we know about it, the better off we'll be is totally natural and in my opinion, totally false

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I am leaving for a two day D's house move-out and hotel staying event with my H. It has all the earmarks of great family bonding and quality alone time with H. I want to make the most of it! It is the last scheduled activity we have planned. So I appreciate you guys jumping in here to remind me that it is MY time and who I am being and MY R with H that matters. I think I will go plan my wardrobe Thanks for hanging in with me.

Well H is back to being very aloof, and what I would describe as covertly pissed off. It is possible that he is just really tired from a long work week, and I will do my best at DBing and being cheery, frinedly and providing some humor and laughter. But the coolness is quite chilling after the warmth of last weekend. He is sleeping on the edge of the bed, etc.

The conversation in the car ride down may have been a trigger or have deepened that state though. He brought up again wanting to buy another house, now that the sale of D's house will be completed on Friday. He see this as a way to improve our financial situation, which it is. But the conversation came up because D is moving in with me temporarily for a month and he discussed taking down his office to make a room for her. I told him D's stay was temporary and that I did not want him to be "squeezed out" of his space in our home. He said it was a practical solution, he wasn't there much anyway, and it wasn't really the optimal set-up as it is now. Then he told me that his roomate is moving back into the condo (where he is renting a room) with his girlfriend too. Up until now he has had the place to himself which he has liked. They are partiers and he has mostly avoided them when they were there. So both of them moving back in (instead of staying mostly at the GF's house) doesn't seem too appealing. So he brought up this fixer he had found near where we live. He got this smile I have seen before when he brought it up. I call it his "bad little boy" smile, because when I see it, it is always related to doing something "wrong" in his mind which he wants to do anyway. He gets it sometimes when talking about OW. He has that smile every time he talks about masturbation. So you get the idea, it's a sign I can read as something's up for him. I asked him if he was telling me that he wanted to buy a second house so he could live in it? He said that's the only way he could see to get ahead (with that smile again). FYI, the reason we sold D's house was to return the $$ we borrowed against our family home (which is mine if he leaves) and in order to buy another house we'd have to do that again. Selling D's house had been primarily my decision once we separated and I found out about the A - I felt the stress on our marriage and the financial risks and H's instability in terms of relating to me made that the best solution (especially with D's school ending) - pare down and take a breath and regroup. So, when he brought this new house up, I told him what I had told him a few weeks ago - that I wanted to buy another house too, but that I wanted to do so in the context of a committed marriage. He said, well if you're going to pressure me, I can just leave and go out on my own. And I said, "I'm sorry if you are feeling pressured. I want you to take all the space and time you need. I am not in any rush to do anything. I remain committed to our marriage. And, I am fighting for our marriage. I am committed to a whole and healthy marriage. That is the stand I am taking." He looked at me with a long silent pause when I said that. I also reminded him that I had discussed the possibility of going to a coach together with him so that we could resolve some of these concerns with good communication, and he declined - told me to go ahead with a coach without him which I will now do. He said if I intrigue him with how it is going he might consider going later. I also told him that there continued to be issues of integrity and honesty in our marriage and that if he was talking more openly with me about his "secret life" that it might help us. I probably should not have used that term. He said, I don't think of it as a "secret life" a little defensively, but then he said, "you told me you didn't want to hear about it and that's why I have not been sharing with you." A little bit of an edge in his tone. So I clarified and said, "I didn't mean that, if that's what you heard. I am interested in your life, and I have always been interested in what matters to you, and I still am. I am not necessarily interested in the details about others, but I am interested in what concerns you."

The conversation had a long pause after that, so finally I asked him about his day etc. and he told me some animated stories about his work day with laughter etc. At dinner, he did bring up OW's kids (which he has wanted to talk to me about before) and also concerns about his son in Germany, and how these kids are disrespectful and out of control. I am educated related to these issues so I talked with him a lot about acting out kids showcasing the real stink in a family when others won't. Hopefully the convo about that helped - he seemed interested.

I did have a coaching call with Chuck yesterday, and will write up the notes from that when I get home. But based on the progress we had been making with physical closeness, the recomendations had been "don't change much". My 180's are to be around doing the opposite of what fear would tell me to do. I do not know if that means we should buy a second house instead of protecting the assets and waiting, but I don't think so because I am not really "afraid" I just don't want the worries and pressures without the commitment. Chuck also recommended that I throw in a few more "no's" since I am generally pretty agreeable to everything H wants to do right now. This would be a pretty big "no" however! Although it does not have to be a forever "no". I think Chuck was refering to invitations. This is a pretty big invitation. I think I'd rather he asked me to the movies.

Your thoughts on all this would be most welcome. I will be cheery and hang out with D alot, if H makes this a "long" 2 days with him .

It has been a long too days. I am discouraged and want it to end, but keep reminding myself that usually every time we have gotten closer, it was followed by H pulling back. I must be patient. I am not sure why, but this particular event of selling D's house makes me feel like our R is now really completely over. I am grieving again. H is making statements about all you need in life is a suitcase and even D thinks he is trying hard to convince himself that running away to the next thing is best. I shall do my best to not let his MLC downs get to me. He also stated he sees no hope for the world and the future. So sad. H is very emotionally removed. I will do my best to be patient. I feel angry and sad myself. It is getting to me, all of it. The whole past 5 months. Right now I just want to go home. I will be there tonight. Meanwhile, I can hope that today will be better. I will make sure to take one last swim in D's house swimming pool and take some pictures.

PL,

I wonder to what extent this event is also affecting your H's PMA. It sounds as though he is really having a tough time emotionally and remember, it likely has nothing to do with you....but with his own thoughts in general.

Keep patient, keep up the good work. Remember, as you told me, you have set into motion a process that has seen many positives. Don't forget that. And while 5 months seems like an eternity to those of us that have been in this sitch, its only a tiny drop in time. Take that walk on the beach....watch the sunset, think of the good things that will come your way with a brand new day.

Hi Rob, Thanks so much for checking in with me. I know you are right that H is having a tough time emotionally, and today I found some compassion again, along with some more patience. H was a little more responsive and loving this morning than he had been the past two days - common when we have spent some time together, he begins to warm up to me again. I had a short conversation this morning with him which was good, and very interesting to me. I told him I was surprised to hear him make the comment about "all you need is a suitcase in life" yesterday as I had remembered when we got married we talked about how much he had travelled, and he had told me at that time that he had always wanted a home, and that he really wanted to create that stability with me. He revealed this morning that the suitcase comment was really something his dad used to always say when he was growing up, and he had just repeated it. This is very telling to me, that H is in MLC and reliving some of the traumas and memories from his past that have long been repressed. It was good that he felt safe enough to share it, and to imply in the conversation that he really did still want a home - that the "suitcase in life" comment was his father's line, not truly his. We also had ANOTHER conversation about integrity - he wanted my opinion about how he was going to manage a conversation with a competitor, and when I suggested that he be honest and complimentary, as honesty and integrity was always the way to go - he wholeheartedly thanked me after we talked about it, and said "that's why I always like to talk to you about these things, you always have the right approach."

H got paranoid with me today when I went to the bank to get out money for our lunch though. He wanted to check his bank account balance, and I told him when I had looked at it yesterday it was about $5000. He jumped on me, wanted to know if I had been snooping, how did I know that when he didn't know that etc. Once I explained that I had accessed our on-line accounts yesterday to make a transfer so had seen his account balance along with all of the others, he seemed to calm down. But I became a bit sensitive and his reaction got to me, so I said, "It really hurts my feelings when you jump to accusations like that when we have always shared everything. It makes me feel like you only want me to be your wife when it's useful to you." He actually comforted me, and said "Oh, honey don't go there" and gave me a hug as we walked back to the car. Then also said we should just talk more about these things so it is not a surprise out of the blue without having more information! I told him I would like it if we communicated more. In the car, I suggested that maybe we should have a meeting once a week or something just to make sure we were communicating regularly about the important stuff. By that time, he was tuning me out (not listening) caught himself and made a joke, by saying "I think you you were communicating about us communicating better, and I wasn't listening...." and he laughed.

Despite the MLC fog I am seeing, it seems healthy that I am beginning to take some risks about communicating directly with him, and it is turning out better than expected. I made some requests for things from him this weekend, such as a few moments of quality time and eye gazing when I was feeling emotionally overwhelmed by our circumstances, and he gave it to me and things got better for me and he did not run, and we got closer by the end. So somehow, funky as it was at times, progress is still being made.

I had an idea tonight that I might consider offering that H could move in to his current office as his own room in August with no expectations about our future R. I am thinking of just dropping it in casually as an option to save him money so that if he decides to leave he will have saved more, and meanwhile he can work on finishing the house projects a little more easily. This is still just a thought germinating in my mind. I would need to be very clear with myself and with him what I could and could not live with in our home, and then he would have to decide if that could work for him. There are some challenges for me with this, as sometimes H's behavior really hooks me. But I do have a 100% private place to be in our home (my office) which has TV, phone and computer available for my venting. The plusses are that it seems the more time we spend together the more he likes me and remembers why he didn't want to leave. And of course I could really hone my DBing skills further to be even more of who I intend to be whether H stays or not.

So these are my thoughts on a late Friday night. D has now arrived to our home with a truckload of stuff. I did rent a storage unit and tomorrow we will handle her stuff and a bunch of mine, and get it out of here, so I can begin to move towards further serenity on our home environment. Better get some sleep - lots of heavy lifting tomorrow, with H arriving at 7:30 am to help.

Thanks to all for being there.

I spent half the day yesterday moving D's furniture to a storage unit w/ H and D. H is getting weirder and D is noticing and disturbed by it. I think I have gotten used to the fact that he is messed up right now, but D hasn't seen him up until now except under the best circumstances (like her graduation). H is reacting "innappropriately" to certain things. The three of us were listening to a radio show on NPR about regrettable relationships while in his truck, and when one woman talked about being on a trip with her boyfriend, and found out later that all of the journaling he was doing on the trip was about an affair he was having with someone else - H just burst with laughter. D gave me a look. It seems H's censors are missing. There are even concerns on both D's and my part that H was being innappropriately cozy with D. Along with mean comments to me, he was overly affectionate (even physically) towards her. When D & I both commented on the "skinny one" and "big one" references he made to D & me, he tried to self-correct and apologize. I am not taking any of it personally (I am actually pretty slender right now anyway - same weight as when we married) but it is not particularly good to be around H right now. He was very helpful with all the moving, and I thanked him and appreciated him for that, and there were some good moments and even good humor in all of it. But, it feels like there is something terribly wrong with how his brain is working and he might even know it too, but just can't correct it. He seems about 12 years old.

And then there were lies. I am quite sure he tells lies every day now. In one instance yesterday, he lied to someone else (we were asked to volounteer for an upcoming event) and he told the person he would be out of the country in Germany that week. When the volonteer coordinator called me later and told me that, I called H and asked him if that was true, and he said no he lied to get the person off the phone. Then he said he had someone on the other line and had to get off the phone with me - would call me back to discuss it later. No surprise, he never did. D thinks he's lying to me, not the volonteer coordinator, and that he is going to Germany that week. Doesn't matter either way. That particular week is his B-day week. Yesterday, I had asked him if he wanted me to make plans for the celebration of his b-day or not (I usually make a pretty big deal of celebrations but didn't want to ignore his or expect to plan anything). However, H was non-committal. I said very sweetly, "Either way is OK, but does that mean no?" but he wouldn't commit to that either. OK, I guess vagueness is better than a lie. I have no way of knowing which are the lies and which are the true tales anyway, so it does not matter whether what he says is definitive or vague. H is lying enough of the time that there is no point in expecting him to tell the truth, other than the memory I have of the man I married. I hope he comes back to earth some day. The man I married valued honesty and integrity.

Did I ever tell y'all that when I decided to get married, I made a list of 112 criteria of qualities I was looking for in a partner? H met all of my criteria - it was one of our favorite stories to tell. Integrity amd honesty were the top 2 on the list for me. So obviously the universe is testing me in many ways right now. I notice over and over that this is the hardest thing for me to accept about H and about our R right now.

Why in the world would I want him to come back home in this state? Sometimes I think my commitment to him would look more like caretaking right now, and that would not be healthy for me or him. He does not seem whole. Like a car running without all the cylinders. If this was H forever in the future I could never be with him again. But I truly don't believe that, and I do believe in him. Hopefully he will find himself, and not too much more damage will occur. D is expressing that she is not sure if she can ever see him the same way again. It is definitely affecting her, currently she thinks marriage is too hard, and thinks it is too bad it seems necessary or better to have an H rather than just have children as a single person. She really enjoyed her childhood, and saw me as doing a great job as a single mom. So I have not been the best role model in terms of relationships, since this is my first real marriage. I know this is just her dissapointment talking. She used to say that my wedding day was the happiest day of her life. So, I think she needs a break from the ucky part. I will make a real effort to have her see a bit less of it. In addition, last night, I suggested to her that perhaps this year she would like to go to her boyfriend's house for Christmas holidays, and see what that was like since both of the D's have really solid R's right now of several years duration with their boyfriends. She loved that idea, as her boyfriend has been wanting her to go with him at the holidays for several years. She worried about me being alone, and I said no worries I will be fine - we need to try something different this year - maybe I will volonteer at a soup kitchen or something I would really love like that, and she got it. So unless something dramatic happens between now and then we will shake up the family patterns and see what can emerge of good and health and positivity from the wreakage of the old R.

Meanwhile, I am going to go to church this morning, order some new books to inspire me, and make sure to walk on the beach today (I have misssed my regular walking for 4 days with all this moving).

Yesterday I took a day almost entirely for myself. I took my beach walk (finally!) for 2 1/2 hours. It was a real adventure this time, as the tide was coming in and I was determined to get to my destination (which is about 2 miles down the beach, where you can then walk up 1000 steps and return by way of the bluffs above the beach. The waves were really big, and we ended up running between sets of waves and rock hopping. It was a good work out but also a real adventure. We got stranded on the rocks at one point, me up above, but the rocks too slippery for my doggie to make it. He is a rescue/shelter dog and initially was even scared of the sand - two years later he is still a bit scared of the waves. So there I was up above on a rocky ledge, and he couldn't time the wave sets to make his leap to me before the waves would return. The waves were getting bigger and after three attempts, he was backed up against the rocky cliff wall refusing to budge. Ah, but rescued by a walker/wader who magically appeared as the only other person on the beach, and carried doggie up to me However, at the very next set of rock formations, I lost my footing, slid all the way off four feet down and fell in shoes and pants wet up to my knees. I was also carrying beach debris I had found to discard, which included part of a rusty lobster cage. I managed to have this great adventure without any damage to myself or the dog. My mama told me not to run with scissors, but I guess I didn't translate her advice well... I did have that recurring thought that if I don't show up at home, how long will it take for someone to notice that I am missing? I have not adjusted to being "single" yet and honestly am resisting the idea that H doesn't care. I just can't buy into that. Even though H doesn't act like he cares. I think H only cares about H right now, and his helpful activities are mostly to assuage his guilt, so he can feel like a good guy. One thing I know, my daughters both care, so better manage my adventures somewhat safely for their sake (if not for my own)! Which I guess in the long run, I did manage to do.

I had also gone to church earlier in the day. Talk was on grieving and loss and betrayal and dissapointment and all of those tough challenges that come into life, and that it is the MOST important part of the journey because that is what has us grow. I need to revel in and appreciate God's blessing of transformation and change brought about by this "wake-up call" with my M. The messaage was, when everything is going along hunky-dorey, it's nice - but THIS hard stuff is the real juice of life, real growth, real development of character. I am probably not saying it all right, but it brought me to tears once again, with gratitude to be finding myself and finding my center and taking myself to a new level once again. Afterwards, I had lunch in a little cafe that I like, and lingered over the Sunday paper.

I had to contact H because there is a plumbing problem in our house (where the renter's live) and he had indicated he was coming over to the house today to work in the office so I wanted him to take a look at it and let me know if he could fix it easily or if I should call a plumber. I decided to text him instead of call, as I didn't really want to talk to him yesterday unless he was more "available", and he is pretty busy with work right now, so with me taking a relaxing day for myself, it seemed best to put the ball in his court. No response, incommunicado, and he didn't show up at the house while I was out or later in the evening either. I think things may be coming to a head. So weird how he was so affectionate and connected to me at D's graduation, and then how strong the back lash is, it feels like the biggest pulling away yet. But maybe not - maybe it's the same-old same-old, and I am just perceiving it differently because I was thinking we had gotten closer and were making substantial progress. I know you have all experienced this. But it never ceases to amaze me.

One more thing that has happened that might push things further (even though H suggested this). H suggested that we transform his office into a temporary room for D while she is here. He said he's not here much, and the set up n the office wasn't working for him anyway. It has been an ignored room since January when he moved. So D and I have rearranged. We dismantled the huge and crappy desk he was using (which we will sell at a garage sale this month) and set up the computer and FAX/printer so he could continue to use it, on a folding table. We rearranged the room and it is much more functional now, we can put a bed in there for D for now as well, and I hung a few pictures, so it looks a lot nicer too. But this involved sorting and organizing H's remaining stuff, and also some of the pictures while not new, are of "us" or all of us. We made a real effort to make the room nice for him to work in, so as not to make it seem that I was "pushing him out". But it does feel like a bare shell of my H is left in our home - that is all. Literally one truck load, and there would be no trace of him other than the photos and memories I have. And I was afraid, moving stuff around, that he would not like it, feel angry, and just pull it all out and leave - like a last straw. Product of the feeling that I can't win with him right now, and nothing I do will be right in his eyes. I suppose one thing that might save me is that D did it with me, and he is totally supportive of everything she does right now, which is weird too (you have to watch it to see how odd the dynamics are right now). It's almost like D is the young, sweet and skinny "me" (the good one in his eyes) and I am the old, mean, big "me" (the bad one he wants to get rid of). Made more peculiar that D and I test the same on personality indicators, etc., so although we are very different in many ways, we are very much the same in how we fundamentally operate. And H did not like D when we first married, he had a few clashes with her and a few judgements, and resonated with my "foster" D more easily. Now that has totally reversed - "foster" D is not speaking to him, and he is judging me and loving D. This is not the healthy family I am committed to.

One of H's things that is still here, is a box of memories from his first marriage, including the announcement that his first wife made when she was pregnant for the first time, and his son's baby booties. I am a little dejected about H today. My father was a WAS, more than once. The first time he had a child that he did not see for 20 years. The second time, married to my mom he walked away after 37 years of marriage to be with a 39 year old woman. I honestly don't get it. It's not the kind of life I would ever want. I am trying to understand my H and how he thinks. But I don't see any satisfaction for him if he continues to walk away. The one thing I do know, is that both my dad and my H did not express themselves directly, about their wants and needs. So they are the nice guys on the surface, the ones everyone enjoys being around, and then the resentment builds up which the partner in particular is unaware of, and they plan their escape. The only thing I can see to do, is to be so kind loving and nice that he feels safe and doesn't need to run. And even then, he still might. Besides, even though I am nice and kind and loving, I am pretty darned direct and straight forward in my expression too. I consider that an aspect of being loving. This was something he loved about me when we met and fell in love - he knew where I was coming from, no games. He had found women in his past to play a lot of games. I believe his OW is going to give him a run for him money too. Maybe he just has to learn that lesson one more time, just like I have to learn this walk-away syndrome and learn to accept it without judgement I don't know how to do that. Honestly, it just feels wrong. It doesn't fit my values. I can accept that he is hurting, and have compassion. But I don't think I will ever be able to accept the behavior of a secret affair or a walk-away choice as OK, even if I can understand how it happens.

I had plans last night to study and work in the office today, but I just can't do that all day. No way. It is just too beautiful outside. So, I will make a new plan. Maybe work in the office later tonight. But today, I play... D is back from some adventures, so I have a potential playmate for the day also. Should be fun! I hope everyone has a great holiday, and loving memories of loved ones on this day of rememberance.

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One of H's things that is still here, is a box of memories from his first marriage, including the announcement that his first wife made when she was pregnant for the first time, and his son's baby booties. I am a little dejected about H today.

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That's interesting. I don't remember you're ever previously mentioning that H had a child from a previous marriage. What is their relationship?

Hi RB, You asked:

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I don't remember you're ever previously mentioning that H had a child from a previous marriage. What is their relationship?

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H has a S12 who lives in Germany. It is nothing but a sad story right now. We were in the process of immigrating him to come to live with us in the US, when H's A was revealed. H was visiting S12 in Germany and had taken him to a spa for the day to relax together, where he met OW. I joined H in Germany a week after that happened, and without knowing why, it was the worst vacation I have ever had. H was aloof and went back to visit S12 again without me (so he could see OW) even though we had planned to travel together for our vacation. I was left at his folks house, excuses were made why it was better for him to see S12 without me and cancel our vacation this time. He took two other trips in the fall before the A was revealed which were ostensibly to visit S12, but were to visit OW too. In December, his son was coming for Christmas, and S12's mom wanted him to stay with us permanently, which was what we had been hoping for for a long time. The next part is not clear to H (in denial IMHO), but I am pretty sure what happened. H got a phone call from OW while in the car with S12. They were outside S12's home, going there to pick up his suitcase, passport, etc. H sent S12 in, and said he would follow in a few minutes because he wanted to take the call with OW. I believe S12 figured out about OW and was not OK with H's choices. H says S12 "knows nothing about the A with OW" and H says he "doesn't know why" what happened next happened. But H was locked out of their apt. building, they never answered the door again. His ex called several hours later to tell H to have a nice rest of his vacation, that he would not be seeing S12 again. S12 is refusing H's weekly phone calls now (they used to talk every week). H gave up trying for three months, and then on a weekend with me at D's house, tried calling S12 again. H wants S12 to tell him why he is upset with him and why he doesn't want to have contact. However, S12 is still refusing to come to the phone. Last two times H went to Germany he visited OW but did not make any attempt to visit or call S12. Just writing this breaks my heart. He is a wonderful boy, and his mom is verbally abusive and a truly lousy parent. His situation there is bleak. He loves me and I think he could have had a good life with H & me here in the states. Of course, that was before all this upheaval and now our M is tenuous due to the A and MLC behaviors. S12 was self-preserving - I believe he knew before I did. It is my understanding that S12 is now acting out - cutting school, hanging out on street corners. I believe H is in a complete fog, focused only on OW to an extremely obsessive degree. I feel my hands are tied, and told the immigration lawyer to stop all proceedings until our situation is resolved. Meanwhile, I fear H's S12 is lost.

The story is even more painful than this. H has a D10 also who is completely disabled. His ex kicked H out when D10 was a tiny baby and they dissappeared on H. She wanted H to be gone from her life so she could raise the kids on her own, like her mom did. H was distraught over the loss of his family and moved out of the country to live with his brother. 1 1/2 years later, when symptoms of D10's disability surfaced, his ex wanted H to return to provide shared care for the kids. By then he had a new life and business in another country, but struggled about whether he could return to a heartless ex and a loveless M for the sake of the children. After several years, ultimately that did not happen. D10 is institutionalized. His ex had another S (now 6) with a different father, and she has also denied that man access to that child. He tried for custody and failed. H's ex is a bitter unhappy person, and it is being passed down to the detriment of these children. Meanwhile, both of her ex's have failed in their involvement also. It is a horrible mess that I wish I had never witnessed, especially since I am a relative "outsider" with so little ability to impact the sitch. I have tried not to judge, but meanwhile it is the children who are suffering.

I did recently ask H if it would be OK if I write a letter to his S12, since he did not come for Christmas, and because I know he is upset. I might be able to help the bridge a little, as H seems at a complete loss for what to do now. H was really really excited that I offered that. So maybe that is something I can do even with nothing else resolved. Thanks for asking RB. It helps to get it out.