Hope you don't mind me busting in on your thread, but I'm in aosrt of the same position as all of you. My h had a very intense EA for the better part of three eyars, and I suspect a couple of PAs early on (disappointment over the unrequited love of his soulmate/ea). I have gone through all the usual elements of this stuff (evidence of infidelity in his behaviour, including the BOMB, the ambiguity over whether to leave or stay, etc.)
He is now saying he wants to stay, and that he loves me, and he is attentive and loving and caring. But he refuses to discuss any of the past three years, unless I ask specific questions. For me, there's been no admission of affairs, though I feel it in my gut that there have been. So I'm wandering around in the dark with my suspicions which easily become obsessions, and he won't talk in those areas. In fact, during the past two years we have had some pretty major setbacks and they always came around my pushing for answers to things. I am hoping to find some way to get my h to open up -- he's a classic conflict avoider and doesn't like to confront issues. I'm not so afraid to, though I'm sure I won't like what I hear.
I feel we really need a housecleaning in order to keep things going well. Being kind and affectionate go a long way, but in the end unless there's a measure of honesty and opennes we'll end up the same place we were. It's possible he won't open up because he's afraid I'm going to be judgmental, which I can be. I would dearly love to go to Retrouvaille, since I've heard so much good stuff about it. I struggled very hard to keep the marriage together, and as you've all found out and as countless others will to, it was only when I'd really and truly given up and was ready to move out myself, that he started to come around. He went through what I think was mlc for the past 2-3 three years (or more), and there were some very bad memories from all this, with him underfoot and putting us both on the rollercoaster ride.
If any of you have suggestions as to how to approach communication, I'm all ears. Ironically, throughout all this his constant complaint was that we don't communciate (ow and he had a veyr intense communication thing going on I think) but the reality is he doesn't communicate very well.
Me2, as for your talks about the A, I think what you're feeling is very normal and justified. In DB, Michele cited a couple who went through an infidelity and she had them agree to a half hour talk twice a week, during which the wife would ask allt he quesitons she wanted, but she wasn't allowed to ask any more than the half hour. The first half hour they did this, the h allowed her to go overtime, and was very caring and loving throughout the questions. She felt so much better they didn't need the second half hour later in the week. But they scheduled these things, and that helped to monitor the convo. Can you ask h to try this?
Jilly, I watched your drama unfold, though I never posted to you. Glad to hear you are doing well. Also glad to hear that it's a real uphill battle when you are reconciling. It doesn't make me feel so alone, and that it's normal.
Kent, I have read a lot of your posts too, and have watched how you've grown in wisdom and patience, as well as forgiveness. I wish I were where you're at.
[This message has been edited by AlexN (edited 04-19-2001).]
H and I have been back together for 7 months now. He does not EVER want to discuss his affair or his MLC behaviour. He has told me that it really, really hurts him when I bring it up.
For now I am ok with moving forward with the marriage, because I can't see how knowing all the details would benefit me. All I need to know is that he loves me. He has changed, probably because I have, and he is much more loving and caring towards me.
I guess I gave up wanting to hear the answers to the questions I was previously killing myself over. I now realize, the only reason they could still matter is to better teach me why?. I'm not stupid. I could add 1 plus 1. The evidence spoke for itself.
I resolved myself to forgive W for the past, not knowing what I was truley forgiving her for. I could only speculate. I did this because I loved my W and I know now that I helped push her away. I also had to let go of these and other bad feelings to allow a happy me to emerge out of the tunnel.
Never settle if you are not happy with the situation. W and I are still in C sessions even though my last thread said they would probably end a month or so ago. The key is to keep thinking about what could make it better. We will never change who our spouses are. We can show them we intend to live a positive life and they will typically try to ride the positivity. I use the C sessions as an opportunity to allow W to vent.
Marriage is hard work. Had I known, I may have never married to begin with. I know that I am a better person for it. I love spending time with my kids. Lots of it. I know I would rather die than cause them pain. Since Divorce causes kids pain and limits your time with your kids, I guess I know why we hate the thought.
I have nothing to complain about anymore. I have already begun to compose my final TY note to Michelle. I realize that even posting to this BB is taking time from my wife, my kids and my work. I will be backing away from this even though I am still a bit scared. I realize that I am scared because the older I get, the more I realize how ignorant I have been in the past. Makes me wonder what little surprise is over the next hill. I realize that this BB can't change that because it's called life.
I can honestly say that this BB and DB changed my life. At age 42+, I am for the first time what I consider to be a happy person. I've spent my entire life searching for happiness like it was something I could buy or latch onto or otherwise aquire. I now realize it was inside all along. All I had to do was allow it to come out. My W notices the change and she is riding my happiness while she searches for her own. I'm OK with that.
My favorite time of the day is when you crawl into bed and start to slip into sleep. I feel at peace with the world. Nowadays, we typically slip away togather hand in hand.
I have just reallized the answer to your question Kent....I do know exactly what I am afraid of...I will try to narrow it down-here goes:
I am afraid of being myself because that is the person he cheated on. And since I still really don't know why I feel helpless to fix it or to see any warning signs to prevent it in the future.
I am afraid of him seeing me sad, which is a lot more often than he realizes, like (Neely I think?) said, when I bring it up it makes him feel guilty and sad. So I stuff it, he can tell when something is bothering me but he just doesn't seem to care-he acts so emotionless...he says it's because he knows what it is (the A) and he is 'powerless' to do anything. He tells me; "what more can I do, what more can I say" and my all time favorite "I told you I was sorry".
I am afraid of this marriage failing. I am afraid that it, that I, was not important enough to him to honor his vow. I don't know why he felt the need to make the decision he made, he cannot express what he WAS feeling to me, or what he IS feeling.
I am afraid he does not desire me anymore. Many mean things were said (by him to me) regarding our intamacy a few months ago-I believe he liked(s) sex with OW more than with me...even tho I thought our sex life to be dam good, I thought he enjoyed it, now I realize that he really does not-at least not with me...more naivity on my part. He says he does desire me-but actions speak louder than words-we barely have sex once a week if even that and I initiate-he says it's because he's too tired and busy-well, fine, but he sure as hell made time for OW to have sex with her-even taking time away from our family holiday to be with her....wasn't too busy or tired then.
I am afraid I am a fool. For believing in him and in us...most of all in me, that I believed I was "the one" for him and he for me. Silly and sappy, huh. So niave.
I am afraid of hurting my children. I will not leave H because of them. I will not fail them. H claims to love me and wants to be a family-I have no choice but to believe that. I guess it's up to me to deal with these feelings of inadequecy that I have.
Like I told him last night, we will go along like everything is OK and I will deal with my feelings...alone. I guess that's the way he wants it because he sure doesn't want to talk to me.
Lastly, one more fear, that he will find someone else to talk to, that's what he said OW became (after they had drunken sex) she was "just someone to talk to". I have tried asking him to talk to me, begging him, asking him in therapy to try and be more open with me, and even outing him in therapy for NOT talking to me, I have tried to leave him to himself hoping he would come around and talk on his own, I have tried to make it "safe" for him to talk to me (by tempering my usual emotional reations-now I have none)...I have tried doing nothing....that's where I am now. Sad to say, but I'm about to the point where I don't want to care anymore. It's like I'm tired of caring-I am just so tired.
I cannot make him do anything, I know that. I can simply be here-but shouldn't I be allowed to expect the same from him?
quote:Originally posted by Me2: I have just reallized the answer to your question Kent....I do know exactly what I am afraid of...I will try to narrow it down-here goes:
I am afraid of being myself because that is the person he cheated on. And since I still really don't know why I feel helpless to fix it or to see any warning signs to prevent it in the future.
WHAT IS BEING YOURSELF? I FIND THAT EVEN THAT PART OF ME IS DIFFERENT NOW. FOR ME, IT CHANGED WHEN I TRUELY GAVE UP ON THE PAST. THE RESENTMENT, THE ANGER, THE SADNESS.
I am afraid of him seeing me sad, which is a lot more often than he realizes, like (Neely I think?) said, when I bring it up it makes him feel guilty and sad. So I stuff it, he can tell when something is bothering me but he just doesn't seem to care-he acts so emotionless...he says it's because he knows what it is (the A) and he is 'powerless' to do anything. He tells me; "what more can I do, what more can I say" and my all time favorite "I told you I was sorry".
WHEN HE SAYS STUFF LIKE THIS, TRY GIVING HIM SOME INPUT LIKE "HOW ABOUT A HUG". THE FACT THAT YOU ARE STILL DWELLING ON THIS INDICATES YOU ARE STILL STRUGGLING WITH LETTING GO OF THE PAST. HOW OFTEN IS THIS HAPPENING? SOME PERSONAL C SESSIONS MAY BE IN ORDER.
I am afraid of this marriage failing. I am afraid that it, that I, was not important enough to him to honor his vow. I don't know why he felt the need to make the decision he made, he cannot express what he WAS feeling to me, or what he IS feeling.
HE WON'T EXPRESS HIM CUS HE DOES NOT FEEL SAFE TO SPEAK WITH YOU ABOUT IT. HE PROBABLY FIGURES IT WILL JUST PULL YOU DOWN LOWER. SORTOF A REVERSE WHAMMMY. HE IS WORRIED YOU WILL NEVER GET OVER THE PAST. IF YOU DON'T FIND A WAY TO LET GO OF THIS CRAP, YOUR MARRIAGE WILL FAIL. THINK ABOUT WHAT H WOULD BE DOING IF YOU FELT HE WAS SUPPORTING YOU THROUGH THESE TOUGH TIMES. DISCUSS THIS STUFF IN THE C SESSIONS. KEEP IT SIMPLE. SHOW HIM THAT THERE IS SOME SIMPLE MEDICINE HE CAN OFFER TO HELP YOU THROUGH YOUR SICK FEELING. KEEP IT SIMPLE AND DIRECT OR HE WON'T DO IT.
I am afraid he does not desire me anymore. Many mean things were said (by him to me) regarding our intamacy a few months ago-I believe he liked(s) sex with OW more than with me...even tho I thought our sex life to be dam good, I thought he enjoyed it, now I realize that he really does not-at least not with me...more naivity on my part. He says he does desire me-but actions speak louder than words-we barely have sex once a week if even that and I initiate-he says it's because he's too tired and busy-well, fine, but he sure as hell made time for OW to have sex with her-even taking time away from our family holiday to be with her....wasn't too busy or tired then.
WE ALL GO THRU THESE CYCLES. MY W WAS PRETTY MUCH THE SAME AS YOUR H. I USED TO PURSUE HER 3 TIMES A WEEK. NOW, I'VE CHANGED. I QUIT PURSUING HER SEXUALLY AND LOW AN BEHOLD, SHE STARTS ASKING. IS IT 3 TIME PER WEEK? NO! THAT DOES NOT MATTER AS MUCH TO ME RIGHT NOW.
I am afraid I am a fool. For believing in him and in us...most of all in me, that I believed I was "the one" for him and he for me. Silly and sappy, huh. So niave.
YEP! I CALLED IT IGNORANCE. NOW YOU KNOW YOUR R CAN FAIL. SO COULD THE NEXT ONE. YOU WILL NEVER BE IGNORANT OF THIS AGAIN SO GET OVER IT.
I am afraid of hurting my children. I will not leave H because of them. I will not fail them. H claims to love me and wants to be a family-I have no choice but to believe that. I guess it's up to me to deal with these feelings of inadequecy that I have.
ACTING AS IF MEANS THAT YOU START BELIEVING WHAT HE IS SAYING IS THE TRUTH. IF HE SENSES YOU DON'T BELIEVE HIM, HE WILL CLAM UP. YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD. YOU NEED TO FIND AWAY TO LET GO OF YOUR FEELINGS OF IMPENDING DISASTER. IF YOU DON'T, YOU WILL CREATE YOUR OWN DISASTER.
Like I told him last night, we will go along like everything is OK and I will deal with my feelings...alone. I guess that's the way he wants it because he sure doesn't want to talk to me.
TRY TELLING HIM WHAT HE CAN DO TO HELP. KEEP IT SIMPLE. IT DOES'NT HAVE TO BE TALKING ABOUT THE AFFAIR EITHER. IT COULD BE A HUG, A DATE, FLOWERS, JUST ABOUT ANY FORM OF AFFECTION WILL PROBABLY WORK. IT WORKS FOR ME.
Lastly, one more fear, that he will find someone else to talk to, that's what he said OW became (after they had drunken sex) she was "just someone to talk to". I have tried asking him to talk to me, begging him, asking him in therapy to try and be more open with me, and even outing him in therapy for NOT talking to me, I have tried to leave him to himself hoping he would come around and talk on his own, I have tried to make it "safe" for him to talk to me (by tempering my usual emotional reations-now I have none)...I have tried doing nothing....that's where I am now. Sad to say, but I'm about to the point where I don't want to care anymore. It's like I'm tired of caring-I am just so tired.
SO IS HE. IF YOU ARE THIS TIRED, IT'S CUS YOUR PUSHING TO HARD. HE CAN SEE IT IN YOUR EYES, HE NOTICES THE FACT THAT YOU DON'T SMILE, THE WRINKLE LINES YOUR GETTING FROM WORRY. IT IS ALL OBVIOUS TO H. YOU NEED TO MAKE YOURSELF HAPPY OR YOU CAN'T RESTORE YOUR M.
I cannot make him do anything, I know that. I can simply be here-but shouldn't I be allowed to expect the same from him?
EXPECTATION IS WHAT GETS US INTO TROUBLE. WHEN YOU FIRST GOT TOGATHER, IT WAS OUT OF WILLINGNESS. NOTHING HAS CHANGED.
HOPE IT HELPS A LITTLE ME2. I'M NOT TRYING TO BE HARSH. I'M TRYING TO POINT YOU TOWARDS THE LIGHT. THE SECRET IS LETTING GO. LETTING GO OF THOSE BAD FEELINGS AND STARTING FRESH. H PROBABLY IS GENUINE ABOUT WANTING TO TRY. YOUR FEELINGS ARE NOT HELPING IN A PRODUCTIVE FASHION.
TIME TO READ THE DB BOOK AGAIN. ONE MORE TIME FOR CONTENT. AS MICHELLE SAYS. YOU NEED TO WORK AT MAKING MARRIAGE GREAT. IT DOES NOT NEED TO BE COMPLICATED. FOCUS ON WHAT WORKS.
Kent, thanks....again, and let me say that you are correct, and I do believe that my H wants to be here and wants to try, and when you say "...YOUR FEELINGS ARE NOT HELPING IN A PRODUCTIVE FASHION." I know my feelings are not productive, that is why I keep them to myself, so as to NOT depress him either, but then where is my support? It's like a double edged sword.
"TIME TO READ THE DB BOOK AGAIN. ONE MORE TIME FOR CONTENT. AS MICHELLE SAYS. YOU NEED TO WORK AT MAKING MARRIAGE GREAT. IT DOES NOT NEED TO BE COMPLICATED. FOCUS ON WHAT WORKS." I will start re-reading today. My problem is that I still have not found what works...all of the things you suggest:
"THINK ABOUT WHAT H WOULD BE DOING IF YOU FELT HE WAS SUPPORTING YOU THROUGH THESE TOUGH TIMES. DISCUSS THIS STUFF IN THE C SESSIONS. KEEP IT SIMPLE. SHOW HIM THAT THERE IS SOME SIMPLE MEDICINE HE CAN OFFER TO HELP YOU THROUGH YOUR SICK FEELING. KEEP IT SIMPLE AND DIRECT OR HE WON'T DO IT. TRY TELLING HIM WHAT HE CAN DO TO HELP. KEEP IT SIMPLE. IT DOES'NT HAVE TO BE TALKING ABOUT THE AFFAIR EITHER. IT COULD BE A HUG, A DATE, FLOWERS, JUST ABOUT ANY FORM OF AFFECTION WILL PROBABLY WORK. IT WORKS FOR ME." - I have done, a few times....no change, he says he will, but when I ask (directly and indirectly) he doesn't deliver. Just a simple hug-no in-depth OR talk...no fancy lights or bells and whistles-for some reason he still holds back, which makes me wonder if this/me is what he truely wants. The whole actions and words thing.
"IT'S CUS YOUR PUSHING TO HARD. HE CAN SEE IT IN YOUR EYES, HE NOTICES THE FACT THAT YOU DON'T SMILE..." that's just it-I don't think I'm pushing at all anymore, and I don't go around all the time frowning and depressed, most of the time I'm ok, and happy that we're together, we laugh and joke and have a good time together, it just gets to me sometimes-and when it does, I seem to be left alone to deal with it.
I have not forgiven him. I also know I am the only one who can DECIDE to, for him and me. I wish I could identify what is holding me back. Or maybe it's that I have not forgiven myself yet?
I need to start with that. Forgivness is a gift you give yourself......
Me2, Kent is right, so right in fact that I am printing off his response to you so I can get it through my thick head. Your h may not be quite at the point yet where he is able to fully give to you. My h wasn't when we "reconciled" last year about this time, and when I pushed and showed him my upset and anger, he retreated right back into the tunnel where he stayed for a long time. We had much more interaction, and much of it negative over the past year, where I got to the point where, to use Dr. Harley's phrase, my Taker started taking over and I no longer cared whether the marriage worked or not. That's whn my h fully came out and started getting more affectionate and mroe open to discussing, especially my feelings of hurt. I have found that it depends on what I say and how I broach the subject. For example, if he thinks he's going to get a lot of questions about his subversive, sneaky behaviour the last year, he doesn't want to talk, but if I talk in terms of how he felt, how I felt, and needing to understand why things happened, and show him that I am not out to nail him, but to better understand, then he is more open. I think we have to accept that this is a long healing process, and longer for some than for others. It may be part of your nature to dwell and obsess, I know it's part of mine, and I intend to go back to counselling to try and sort this out, and see if my counsellor has any concrete suggestions as to how I can get over this hurdle, at the same time that I encourage my h to be more open. Without some openness, and communication, I don't believe that we will last past the honeymoon stage again, which is where we have failed in our past two attempts to get it right. My h does seem more willing this time, but I could also push that over the edge, so yes, you have to be very careful. Kent is right on though with his advice. Going back to re-read Db is a great idea.
Me2, There are two sides to the forgiveness is a gift you give yourself thing.
1st, you gotta forgive yourself for your past. If you can't do that, you will never be able to forgive another.
2nd, by forgiving H, you are releiving the burdens that come with harboring ill feelings. I don't know what it will take for you to get to this point. For me, I had to stand on the precipice and realize I was about to lose everything I cared about. I had to pass thru my own mini MLC.
****************************************** I know my feelings are not productive, that is why I keep them to myself, so as to NOT depress him either, but then where is my support? It's like a double edged sword. ********************************************
For now it is us! We are here to provide support. Also, don't think H does'nt notice when you hold it in. I can sense more about what is going on with my W than she can.
******************************************* that's just it-I don't think I'm pushing at all anymore, and I don't go around all the time frowning and depressed, most of the time I'm ok, and happy that we're together, we laugh and joke and have a good time together, it just gets to me sometimes-and when it does, I seem to be left alone to deal with it. *********************************************
I think the same happens to all of us. It's just that you are a bit more needy now. I can say I experience the same thing sometimes. This is when I choose to get away for a while , to renew my spirit. I think I feel another fishin trip comin on.
Try to look back at the past 6 months. Try to find the small improvements that have occurred. If the things you have tried don't work, try something off the wall like going out without him. Stay out most the night having fun. If your always the responsible adult in the relationship, try the other side. Just a little irresponsibility. Fake it if you must. Kindof like an experiment to try to shake H off center.
I offered one example. I'm sure there are thousands of others. I keep the OR stuff for the C sessions. Especially anything heavy.
