That is an easy question and one I may have addressed long ago, somewhere. My W is almost the spitting image (in personality, not appearance) of my mother. Both are extroverts, have that high manic excited tendency, both enmesh and provide that feeling of comfort to my enmeshment needs. The funny thing is that EVERYONE in my family sees exactly the same thing, but both my W and mother have for the longest time vehemently denied they are anything like one another. More recently they have seen some similar tendencies.
I have always been a more quiet, introverted and at time shy person. Much is this was shaped in my childhood by my dominating and controlling mother, in conjunction with some of the knock-down drag out fights my parents had. That kind of fighting tends to shock kids into shutting down and just stuffing their emotions, both happy and sad. So someone like my wife (and mother) could pull those emotions out and make me feel alive, energized.
She on the other hand grew up as a “parentified” child, always playing the role of adult, mother, rescuer. One thing I recall she said that endeared her to me is when I told her that my brother’s wife was dying from AIDs (she was a major tramp) and that we were concerned he could have AIDs too (somehow he never contracted HIV and still hasn’t yet). This triggered her loss issues and rescuing habits, so we came together. And the rest is history.
So for me this all proof that your FOO issues WILL come back to haunt you if they are not addressed.
I'm just checking in here for a moment to make a point that I think might be important to your situation. I think a couple of other posters touched on this previously. You are a big believer in FOO- right? If this is the case, why do you keep identifying me with your wife instead of yourself? IMO, your wife and I are really only alike in certain basic and easily understandable ways due to the fact that we are both women. By this I mean that for reasons both biological and cultural we both want more or less the same sorts of things from a relationship. However, in terms of FOO and personality type and the way we go about trying to make our way in life and relationships, you and I have a lot more in common. That is why I like you and took advice from you- I can see clearly see your essential vulnerability behind your tendency towards intellectual abstraction and "big cheesiness". Your wife isn't like you or me and that is why she can't see your vulnerability and that is why she feels like she needs an apology. I don't think you need to apologize to her. I think you need to do something far more difficult than that or more accurately, I think you need to get to a place where it will be easy for you to do something far more difficult than that. This is a rough analogy because I don't mean to imply that your wife is a bum, but apologizing to your wife or giving into her financial demands would be the equivalent of giving the bum on the corner a dollar for booze. What you need to do is give the bum a whole-hearted hug.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I apologize if I in any way alluded to you having my W’s personality (that really would be low, LOL!). But you two do have similar loss issues and similar deflection styles (well, more like identical deflection styles). My mother also does this deflection and used to really drag in everything, including the kitchen sink (I even recall asking her once why she didn’t mention the kitchen sink – “Huh? What does that have to do with anything?”). I learned to do this too as a kid, but way back in college realized what was going on and tried stopped what deflection I was aware of, or at least tried to. In an argument I now try to stay on message and avoid tangents.
But there are times when I will consciously go there or tolerate W’s tangents because it is almost like she uses tangents as a way to bond. Its like that Monty Python scene from the Holy Grail where they argue over whether a swallow could have carried a coconut to England. As one makes a clear case that a swallow does not have the lifting capacity to carry a coconut, the other says, “Oh I meant a European swallow, that was my point.” The first guy says, “Yeah, a European swallow, sure” and they both avoid the confrontation and both save face. So I am guilty of using tangents to diffuse situations. It doesn’t make for much progress, but at least we both feel heard (and often its about as relevant as a swallow carrying a coconut!)
Mmmmm, "big cheesiness"….. could that be a disguised self compliment, not that there’s anything wrong with it. Yeah, I know my intellectualism is my way of controlling chaos and fear, breaking things down to their basic components to understand the worst that can happen. It is a form of self protection. It ticks off my W because she was always the self professed relationship expert (BS degree in psychology you know), and was accustomed to lecturing all her siblings, even her older brother. So my analyzing her did not sit well.
I agree with what you say of giving her a hug. I did this exact thing some time back when she was “trying to find a way out of this mess” regarding my intention to D. At that time she dropped her defenses, I dropped mine, we came to terms, I hugged her and did not let go until she started to cry. You would have thought that made a difference! It did for a little while, until her identity system kicked in and resurrected all her hurt and anger. It is getting time for another of those break-down-the-defenses hug. I want to find some common activity or outing that we can both do to help ease into this. Too much direct intimacy scares her.
I also want to focus on the concepts in “Come to Your Senses” for my daughters, and thereby indirectly with my W. I see my girls choke up when playing sports, especially tennis, so analyzing this inner voice should be well received by them. Then I can let the tangent develop into self confidence, letting go of anger, etc.
Or maybe it is not that she grew up learning to NOT be wanted but the fear of abadonment that keeps her from trusting when she is wanted. Cobra I do have good intentions that is why I posted on your thread. Maybe not to the full extent of your wife but I can very much relate to her personality and the way she was raised. So was trying to provide some insite to how she could be possibly feeling.
I don't think I have naive look on love. I think every woman wants to be loved. It is a great feeling to be loved. You feel so different about a person when you are in love. You want to be there for that person. You want to be a better person for that person. There is a sense of comfort and security just to be in that persons arms. There is a definite feeling when you are in love. I don't feel I chose to be in love with my husband. It happened even though I fought it at first.
What beefs does she have with your family? Does she feel threatened by them in some way? I am glad to hear you do want you guys to come together and her be around your family someday.
I guess I would feel more embarassed if my husband was divulging our personal problems to his family and therefore turned them against me. I thought that was what may have happened in your situation. I am just a very private person in that way.
I think we all learn to love from the example we set in our children. I worry about what FOO issues they will have by seeing two parents clearly not in love and fighting all the time. How will they ever learn how to love?
I remember you making a comment a few days ago about your wife not recognizing or dealing with the 'alpha male that we talk about around here' .... something like that at any rate.
<sigh, frustration. ugh> I would really love to have a IRL convo with you. maybe meet at the Flying Saucer, and have a couple pints of something scottish and bitter. at any rate, with your W's FOO, it takes a real man, a really strong guy to get done what you are trying to do. So Salud to you. Im really impressed. Youve done the brutal part of it, but instead of dissecting your post and pointing it out to you you are , Ill just say your doing top notch.
Youu may not see it yet from this perspective, or ever, but your getting it done. and its the results that matter.
some ideas, (that HP has been trying to get across to you too)
Our counselor mentioned to me once concerns about her obsessive-compulsive behavior. I am beginning to focus more on this too. not very differentiated. I see it as a major problem for her and how it affects the balance in all our lives. ok She obsesses over something to the exclusion of everything else and .........cracks. I have my suspicions about what drives her to do this, but my detachment from the whole affair may be the best approach for now. In other words, just let the natural consequences occur and don’t try to rescue her. YES! fantastic. how about setting some boundaries though so that it doesnt effect the rest of you? more on this in a sec...
I would like for W to understand how much stress she puts on herself and how she can drive herself crazy. If she could see this, I think she might realize how much she impacts the whole family when she gets overwhelmed and frustrated blech. focus on you, take care of your needs so that you can stay out of her messes.
HP gave a hint that I am going to strongly reiterate.
Quote: Can you designate one room of the house for school stuff and she'd better keep the rest of it clutter free?
set this boundary. repeatedly without anger untill its accomplished. think about this and you will see how it is taking care of your needs and doing what needs to be done for the family. do you see potential conflict here? I sure do. Do it anyways. Does it seem needless to you? It doesnt to me. Its another opportunity to demonstrate strength( attractive), set boundaries( really sexy) and take care of you and your family (ooh.. the cherry on top).
about the quality time....
agree that W and I need to spend time together, go do things, find a common interest or hobby outside the kids. I have realized this for a long time and even years ago tried to suggest different things. She was open to the idea, but never followed through
Figure out some common interests that you and your wife have. Try things that are new to both of you. and then YOU set a time and date for it.
This is not an acceptable excuse... She was open to the idea, but never followed through check your schedules and let her know what day(s) the activity is going to happen. (with statements and fun and upbeat energy. Not like a sargeant ordering troops) Make her responsible (therby giving her the feeling of being involved and like she is part of a team) by giving her directions to take care of some aspect of it. for ex. having her make arrangements for who and how the kids are going to be taken care of during this time. or preparing or picking up supplies for the activity.
Ive mentioned stuff like this in other threads before...
Its not about her following thru. Its about you following thru, and leading. IF she has the usual vocal resistance to it, ignore (while smiling) and plow. Its just a test to see if its really important to you and that you really care.
I was going to post this on Haphazard’s thread of “Patience is a Virtue,” but since my comments are related to the crucible, I thought I would post them here.
I picked up some tapes by Schnarch. The first set was about the Sexual Crucible, but it didn’t have anything new in it other than what is mentioned in the book. I’ll see if the others have any value. One thing he mentioned that I had forgotten was that good marriages are not the peaceful, calm ones in which partners stand side by side and support one another. That type of dynamic breeds the Tyranny of the Lowest Common Denominator in which the partners find the path that they can best mutually tolerate. Anything too uncomfortable is thrown out since it is a threat to the relationship and what is left results in boredom.
Schnarch claims the most fulfilling marriages are not those that avoid arguments or have lots of security, but those that experience the most pain, because they can also experience the most pleasure. He says the current paradigm of how we view relationships is wrong, i.e., our basic assumptions for judging a healthy marriage are faulty. Counselors teach couples to move toward that least common denominator and bring peace to the relationship. However that peace does not foster the change needed to properly differentiate, grow and experience the type of connection everyone on this board seems to want. Counselors should keep sessions controversial, pressing the issues, keeping the heat turned up on the crucible to maintain a slow boil (I think this is what Brian’s Schnarchian counselor was doing, why it seemed so confrontational to him and opposite of what he was expecting).
Schnarch’s example is that tempering metal in a crucible requires high temperature and pressure. Relationships need the same. Turning down the heat in conventional therapy counseling will not “cook” the partners sufficiently to generate growth, but it will make a temporary peace. Pushing for real change, real growth, real connection, means working THROUGH the issues, not around them. I take this to mean confrontation should not be avoided, that there are times when you either need to push you and your spouse into the crucible or be content with the Lowest Common Denominator.
So that brings me around to the comments on this board. What exactly is it we are looking for when we complain about our relationships? Should we bemoan the fact that we do not have the feeling of love, caring and support from our spouse that we think we should? Should we think we can get those things by always playing nice and waiting for the other person to finally make the changes we want? How does that turn up the heat? How can change occur any other way? Which choice of our two choice dilemma do we want to avoid more – the boring, non-connected status quo or the scariness of turning up the heat, working through the issues while walking along the cliff edge (with the very real threat of failure and divorce), on the path to a more fulfilling relationship?
Good post. NotAtlDave recently posted something to the effect that spending time on this board solo trying to improve your relationship rather than actually interacting with your spouse in order to improve your relationship is counter-productive. I think this is true, but I would add the important point that it is even true that having what would conventionally be construed as a negative interaction, such as an angry fight, with your spouse will almost certainly be more productive than engaging in even the highest level of PMA in your own mind or when posting on this BB.
I mean this BB does serve a good purpose. It can and has helped many of us in terms of our PERSONAL growth but it can do nothing to help us with our relationships if we allow it to be the forest in which our tree of angry or tearful complaints or positive resolutions fall silently without ever causing a ripple in our real life marriage. Think about even the most positive, accepting sort of post, such as that made by Hap. The post that she made will make no difference in her marriage unless she follows through and does something such as saying to her husband "Even though I remain dissatisfied with our sex life and other aspects of our marriage, I remain committed to our marriage and loving you in all your imperfection.". If you ask yourself why most of us might hesitate to say something like this to our spouses, the limitations of this POV/philosophy become quite apparent.
It is true that it is important to commit to your relationship in order to be able to make any sort of progress BUT it is equally important to understand that you can't do your spouse's committing for them.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Yes it is true you can’t make your spouse commit. Schnarch replies that as one person raises his/her level of differentiation, it places the other in a crucible of sorts in that one or the other must decide to raise/lower their differentiation in order to achieve a level of balance between the two, or ultimately one of the two will leave the marriage.
As far as the value of posting on this board goes, I agree with you, BUT I find value in learning what it is that I should then go and do with my spouse. Until I gain that all knowing state of knowledge regarding relationships, I think I will always find value in returning here. The other valuable part in posting thoughts here is if your spouse also visits this board. I know not many of us fall into that category, but for some reason my spouse has starting reading over some of my threads, most recently this one.
I think her initial purpose was to pick flaws in my thinking and find criticisms of me from other that she could then use to her advantage. But she also picked up some understanding of what I have been saying to her and in that regard it has been a help. Just over the past week or so, she says reading this board has helped her to understand what I was wanting from her in my request that she commit to the marriage. When I said it to her, all she heard was a demand, a way of putting responsibility on her to avoid my own. Somehow she came to realize I was doing so out of my own fears, and what her role was in contributing to those fears. So there can be more value to this board than just a place to vent.
Bravo, cobra, and welcome, Mrs. cobra. Your H is one of the sharpest tacks in the box around here... even if sometimes the point of that tack can poke a bit! Seriously, He's tenacious and smart and many of us value his insights a lot.
at any rate, with your W's FOO, it takes a real man, a really strong guy to get done what you are trying to do. So Salud to you. Im really impressed. Youve done the brutal part of it, but instead of dissecting your post and pointing it out to you you are , Ill just say your doing top notch. 
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