By reading this I can tell you are a control freak. You want to be right and heard. Whenever I have seen you post about your wife you always state she is wrong or what she feels is horse crap or bull. Ya know she is entitled to feel the way she feels. She has many different opinions then you. It doesn't mean she is running or avoiding. It may just mean she is at the end of her rope and is really feeling she has had enough of you. It seems funny that she would say you are abusive. You keep trying to provoke a fight and keep coming at her badgering her because you feel she should talk. Then you said this....
Quote: I said W was been abusive too. Her withdrawing, avoiding, running, not talking is all a form of abandonment
To me that is not abuse. It seems maybe she just doesn't want to fight with you. It seems like you argue about everything if it comes to something she would like expecially with the children. If she tells you the children have come to her and told her something then you call her a liar. If your own children have come to you and confirmed what she said like in one instance they didn't want to take Tae Kwan Do anymore then you jump in by saying you don't care they are going to take it anyway. So I am sure even your own children feel your control as well as your wife. If your wife really wanted your children to wear blue you would probably argue you wanted yellow. If she wanted to feed them burgers you would probably argue steak. I know those are petty examples. I guess the point I am trying to make is maybe she is sick and tired of argueing with you on every little instance. I mean if even if she feels something or is hurting about something you tell her it is wrong. So she shuts down to avoid all thse fight with you. I am sure as a mother she doesn't want to do this in front of her children all the time. So that is not abuse that she avoids you or is not talking to you. She is trying to maybe cope the best way she knows how right now. But you are the kind of demanding man that won't accept that and keep coming after her and forcing the issue.
If my husband called the police on me because he finally pushed me and pushed me to the point of arguing with him I would be very upset and resentful to. She was a mother with little children and one who is trying to work to help support her family and was being carted off probably in cuffs and taken to a jail cell. With little children upset and wondering where mommy went and also now with a police record with a bad marriage and may to possibly get another job someday with a police record. Heck yeah I would be angry and resentful. To me that was a power trip you used. She didn't do it to you when you kept pushing her that night to speak with you.
Another example..
Quote: I told W that I know she does not think she was being abusive during our fight, but her distancing was very upsetting and very abusive to me. For her avoiding any form of engulfment is what makes her comfortable and secure. So she thinks she was acting appropriately. But I do not think I was doing anything inappropriate because to me, engaging is a comforting action. I do not see it as abusive. So her actions make her 50% responsible for what happened. I was willing to apologize for my 50% only.
Well, engaging to her is not a comforting action! But yet she went to jail that night. And yet you still feel she should appologize to you for not wanting to argue with you.
So what if she has a retainer fee right now. Maybe she is so hurt and confused she doesn't know what she wants. Maybe she is just preparing for if something does happen. With some good faith and you commiting to be nice and work on yourself and your marriage it could maybe turn things around. But you have to control everything and to you this is something she has on you and it pisses you off. So you are trying to force she remove it.
It just seems like everything is power trip for you. Maybe you take the whole alpha male thing a little to far. I feel very sorry for your children to see these fights and power trips all the time. Just think of the FOO they will have. Foo seems to be very important to you. Never before have I seen a Dad be so argumentative over the children. Most dads I know leave a lot up to the mom's to decide feeling they have the best interest at heart.
Appreciate the comments… Actually she does acknowledge I have changed and improved a lot, she even mentioned this several times in counseling. In spite of that she keeps dragging up the past, but mostly when she gets mad, and that seems to happen more when we are in counseling, which is when she is having to confront her issues. So I see this as a major deflection tactic. It is also typical of how she operates – not letting go of past grievances, having an EXTREMELY hard time forgiving people. All this tells me her inner security is very fragile.
Also, she has the perception that I was so abusive, did not help around the house, etc., but the truth is that I think I did more around the house than any other husband I know. I have done a lot of remodeling over the years, major landscape and yard work, automotive repairs…. But her memory is selective to when I go work out, play softball, go to TKD. So I try to acknowledge her complaints, but in no way do I accept them hook, line, and sinker. Like so much of what she does, I see these complaints as another way to throw me off balance. So as a matter principle, I do not acknowledge everything carte blanche.
I did mention the issue of mistrust at the end of our last session (when speaking about taking the “leap off faith”). I said the changes I made were all in line with what she wanted and other women would be ecstatic if their husbands did that (how many here would like to see such change?) Yet she stays suspicious of my changes so that I get no more credit for changing than if I had not changed at all. This is her trust issue which she needs to address. Staying suspicious is a deflection in order to avoid her having to make a decision to accept me and the closeness that will bring to our relationship. Once I address her complaints, she is under the spotlight to take the next step. This is what she really wants to avoid because she has no idea how to be intimate with an adult. This is what I am calling her out on.
Cobra: Thank you for all the details of the C visit, and your views about your W and your M. So many similarities to my sitch, what with the list, the changes you (and I) have made to accomodate their wishes, the lack of credit for the changes made, the lack of intimacy in spite of the resolved list, and the continued deflection to avoid working on her own issues.
It's nice to know that I'm not walking through this darkness alone.
If she has a perception that you were so abusive....well then, Cobra...in her mind you were and well, that's what matters here.
What I hear in your posts in regards to your W is you continually trying to disarm her, I'm not sure that's always a good thing. In a way I can see you doing this in a manner that would convey a "see....I told you I'm right" feeling to her.
Your truth is that you have a perception that you did a lot more than many other husbands would do....and I'm sure that's probably true. But your perception of things definitely does not match up to hers.....so you can't approach it as though "she thinks I was abusive...but I did xyz and she should be thankful for that"...and that's what I hear in what you wrote. You need to be addressing the behaviors she considered to be abusive.....period...full stop. Whether you agree with them is pretty much irrelevant, she believes it.
If she feels you have been abusive in the past Cobra in your behavior towards her....and you have changed that behavior now....she's waiting for the other shoe to drop and for you to revert back to that behavior. Just as many of us on here expect our LD spouse will revert to LD behavior after they step up for a bit....because they usually do after a time.
Also...please, please, please....don't compare her to other women (i.e. other women would be ecstatic if...). When people say stuff like that to me I find myself hearing "you aren't normal....everyone else would.....". It's not a stretch for me at all to think it might come across to her that way too....especially considering her perception of your past behaviors. Statements like that are in themselves passive-aggressive control tactics....knock it off! It's one thing to think those things to yourself, but stop saying them to her. I know it seems such a small thing to focus on.....but for me, it would be enough to keep some resentment boiling at the surface and continue waiting for that proverbial other shoe to drop because it's a reminder (even just a small one) that he's trying to change/control me.
I know that may not make a lot of sense, but I tried to explain it as best I could right now.
I hate hate when my husband use to do this. I don't care what other husbands do. I don't care what other wives would be happy with. What matters to me is my marriage. And what is right for us. All it does really is cause a huge arguement. Because for every husband that does help some you may be able to point out 2 or three that do even more. There could be some that do less. It does no good to compare.
Also I think this jail thing would hold resentment for a long time. It has to affected many aspects of her life. If I am recalling right she is a teacher. That is crucial to her job if she has a police record. Then to have her husband admit well you wouldn't talk so I did push you to the point of fighting with me but I will only give you a half azz appology.
I hear what you are saying and I agree in principle. But remember, she is akin to Mojo’s master of deflection style. You do not seem to deflect at all and are willing to accept your discomfort, hold on to yourself and work through things. That my W is uncomfortable with her trust is me is not my issue. It is hers. She has been this way all our marriage and long before that, as far as I can tell.
She is still angry with her father for leaving divorcing her mother and leaving the family over 30 years ago. The rest of her siblings are on good terms with her dad. They know he has major issues, but they still seem to be able to over look that and have a god relationship with him. She does not trust him, cannot forgive him and probably never will. That is because of HER, not whether he has met some threshold for re-establishing trust. He can never meet her threshold because she simply won’t let him. As long as he accepts that evasive threshold, he is playing her game.
So I decide not to play the game. I make my changes. I become a better person. If she chooses to live in the past, that’s her choice. If she wants to use that as an excuse to not commit to the marriage, that is her choice too. But at some point she will have to confront this choice, instead of dodging it. I think that what she will find is that once she decides, the anxiety she fears will not materialize and we can move forward. She does not seem to be able to understand these issues until she actually experiences them. So rationalizing with her is pointless. She needs to just jump in the water and experience the temperature. It is all about taking a leap of faith.
Cobra, the first thing that came to my mind after reading your update was, Does he want to be right or does he want to be happy? The whole apologizing for the jail incident sort of irked me. And I think that's because I was thinking about my own situation when H left. Both traumatic events in our M's. If my H has never even attempted to apologize after all that time (which is what your W stated in C), I would be very reluctant to commit to the M too. Don't you see that?? I've stated to Heather that she should work on "softening" and I think you could benefit from that too. I don't mean turn into a pansy, I just mean lighten up a touch. Beceome a Litle more sensitive to your W's perceptions of the M. They DO count. As much as you feel they are wrong.
Quote: The rest of her siblings are on good terms with her dad. They know he has major issues, but they still seem to be able to over look that and have a god relationship with him. She does not trust him, cannot forgive him and probably never will. That is because of HER, not whether he has met some threshold for re-establishing trust. He can never meet her threshold because she simply won’t let him. As long as he accepts that evasive threshold, he is playing her game.
Maybe in your mind you think you are changing. And only changing what you feel needs to be changed. If she does confront issues she has with you and is aggresive in doing so then she goes to jail. Who wouldn't avoid that.
Perhaps she has issues with her father that you don't know about. Perhaps he has never appologized for walking out on them. Some people have a hard time forgiving if someone hasn't even asked for forgivness. Perhaps she has strong morals that what he did was wrong.
