Hi Everyone- Well, I made it through a second wedding anniversary during this separation from H. He was (still is) on a business trip, like last year, but fortunately this year I got a nice, warm, very long distant telephone call with happy anniversary wishes. Last year I was in tears and waiting for the rings that never came. This year, well, I was, I think ready for anything. I guess it let me be pleasantly surprised in the end and marvel at lower or eliminated expectations.
I still struggle a bit with certain of my family members who inquire where things are going with H and why he hasn't returned home after such a wonderful vacation together. One recent conversation with an older sister left me feeling all stirred up and ready for the old war path re. everything being solved now or, even better, yesterday. Nevertheless, I ended the conversation with my sister in a nice manner and realized that there was little, if anything, that she could relate to in my situation. I know many of you have experienced all of this in dealing with certain friends and family members. Isn't it amazing that such conversations can have us momentarily drift backwards and hurt?
I've read so much on different threads re. the passive aggressive nature of some of our spouses and see so many characteristics that my H possesses. I too have wondered what the interplay is between DB methods and passive aggressive tendencies, along with the interplay of those things in an MLC situation. I think, to a certain extent, I've run out of energy to try too hard to put some labels on all of it, but, at the same time, my personality has me continuing to try to understand more than I currently seem able to. Early on, I read "Living With The Passive Aggressive Man" (author's name escapes me--have book buried in my collection accumulated during the past 2 years) and was discouraged by the overall conclusion that most passive aggressives will not change their ways and that if you're not married or otherwise have a significant stake in the relationship then get out ASAP. Anyone else read the book and walk away with the general sense I just described?
Well, time to get the munchkins out for some fun times. Have a great day--Jamie
I have tried to get that book from the library many times, even today on my lunch hour. It seems that I may have to buy my own copy because it is so popular that it is always gone or reserved to go. Isn't that strange? I guess we aren't isolated cases. Hee, hee. I promise that once I get my hands on that book I'll give you a full report.
Although my h's EA ended some time ago, I continue to struggle with his passive aggressive personality. We were in counseling for almost a year after the affair ended during which time our counsellor worked on his passive aggressiveness in private sessions with him. She did not seem to make much progress. She warned me that he was a master at the technique and to try to avoid being set up. I wondered why we were never released long after the EA ended. I think she was trying to figure out how to deal with this covert method of control and sabotage.
I would like to read the book but only if it does more than to identify the characteristics. I need help in how to live with this person without going crazy. Let us know if you read it.
I reacently read an exerpt from the book IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING about covert aggressives and it described my h's (and his former ow's) behavior so closely that it frightened me. It described prescisely my h's techniques when we have any discussion that remotely makes him feel threatened - and that takes very little. His passive agressive approach to relationship discussions has made recovery much more difficult. Both of these books seem to suggest that the best solution is to run, not walk, away. That is not an option that I want to choose.
Hi Lissa and Wesse- I'm going to pull the book out again and read at least parts of it to see if I can really recommend it or not. I know it provided some insight to me at the time, including identifying some of the traits that women falling for these types of guys often have. It was a bit scarey to think of how I'd been involved pretty seriously with a couple of other passive aggressives and what I might have been searching to fulfill in parts of me.
I actually suggested to a good male friend of mine that he read the book when he was describing a pattern re. the women he was dating. He followed through and discovered some of his passive aggressive characteristics and the impact they've had on his relationships. We enjoyed a couple of dinners together, during which we discussed some specifics. I don't want to suggest that he's unique in his willingness to read the book, but I don't know many men who would read it as some type of learning experience. As I type this, I realize that if he and I had ever been romantically involved he probably would have bolted out the door throwing the book over his shoulder! Query also whether he's changed in his relationships.
Wesse, I'm with you, I've never really viewed it as an option to run from H because of his passive aggressiveness. I know my interaction with H has changed considerably and I can now see the passive aggressive instances coming from a mile away. I used to enable H's ways by blowing up and letting him point his finger at me for being out of control. Of course, the irony was that it was the fact that I was indeed exercising a form of control that I now know made him point his finger in the first place and take some jabs! I recall numerous examples of manipulation are noted and discussed in the book.
I now manage not to blow up and more often rather calmly look at him and ask for more information to help me understand the particular situation/discussion. He can't point the finger at me or withdraw quite as easily as before. I will not enable his withdrawls by giving him the out that I think he is implicitly looking for sometimes. It has been very difficult for me to drop the "cross-examination techniques" that worked so well and for so long professionally, but weakened things on the personal front with him.
On another note, Lissa, how's little Andy and life treating you? I know I read on Autumn's thread not that long ago that you were interviewing for different positions and exploring some new options at work. It's always great to hear from you. Hope all is well with you. Jamie
Hi Jamie. I wanted to ask you what your contact with H was like during the many months you were separated. Since you have seen improvements only recently, could you tell me if during your separation he was indicating a willingness to try? Was that what kept you going? Or was he saying the things these other H's say about things not workings, wanting D etc. My H is passive aggressive big time, so I'm feeling somewhat hopeless because I know it takes him forever to decide to do anything, if he ever does. I usually had to be the initiator. Since you say your H is PA also, how in the world did you motivate him to work on the marriage? Thanks for any information you can provide, it always helps.
Your reference to cross examination techniques rings home to me. One of my h's favorite methods of diverting me is to make me prove the most obvious observation or conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. Because of much professional experience, I'm generally able to do it, I've lost energy and focus after it's done. We are both in the same profession so he is equally as adept at throwing in the red herring as I am at cross examination. Needless to say neither skill is productive in a relationship discussion.
I am pleased for you to see that your h seems to be responding favorably. You seem to be doing a good job of avoiding the set ups where you appear to be controling. My h and I have long been in recovery for more than a year. The one thing that has most adversely affected our recovery is the pattern of chase and avoid that we get stuck in.
I'll spend several exhausting days getting my h to face what started out as an issue that I'd think we'd talk through in a fiarly short time. Ultimately, he will take 10 minutes to finally hear me and say what he thinks I want to hear. It's then over because I've lost the will to go on. He says a few soothing words that have no impact on his life. The following day it's as if nothing at all has happened - he's told himself that he's handled yet another of my mood swings (it doesn't matter that I never had these "mood swings" before his affair).
I have learned to recognize many of the maneuvers, but I could really use help in responding to them!
Hi CC & Wesse! It has been one of those nice days during which I heard from a couple of long distance friends I haven't spoken with in quite some time. There really is nothing like good friends and, boy, aren't you able to sift through friends and find the solid reliable ones when there's trouble in paradise? I feel incredibly fortunate with a few of them who have made it so clear during this mess that they're always there for me.
CC, let's see if I can shed some more light on things. My H has to this day never said that he wants a D. Nor has he ever said or implied that he was willing to completely throw in the towel. That said, however, I can recall several conversations when I pressed him about his not "working" on the marriage (having a gameplan, marriage counseling...) and his very defensive response was that "hanging in there and not filing for D was working on it." My response and outrage at the time is not worth getting into now, but I think he has been one of these people who needed to feel differently about me without very CONSCIOUSLY doing much on his part (or perhaps I should say do much in response to my outward urging). I know, it sounds lazy and so obviously self-serving for him to just sit back and hope and wait to see the light, but I do believe that he needed to do it his way and that it was absolutely critical that I let go of the resentment and anger surrounding our separation and go about my business. My assessment of our situation is that he truly has needed to feel in control of where he goes in this and at what pace he moves. I said it before a long time ago on this board that he is probably so control sensitive that should I say "drive carefully" on his departure on a blizzard night he'd think "oh great, now she's even telling me how to drive!"
One thing I should add is that H and I have gotten a sitter off and on during much of our separation and gone out as a couple. Although romance really wasn't a part of those occassions, we both always openly noted what a great time we'd had. As wonderful as that may read, the end of the evenings were typically difficult, as I so regularly heard my mind's mind saying "so, does he think it gets better than this? what does he want?"
I think my H knew that I really was at the point of truly accepting the possibility that we wouldn't reconcile and that our lives would go in different directions except for the common thread of sharing two beautiful and wonderful children. It honestly was when my focus turned from strategy re. H and his decisions to what decisions I needed to make for me and things I could do for me and my girls that things started to noticeably change. I was able to let go of built up resentment, which I think he could always sense even if I didn't express it orally. I gradually stopped initiating any OR conversations and just started living without pressing him for anything. I believe Michele's section on not talking about the relationship with your spouse (unless he or she initiates it) was critical in my situation and I believe it is so often true that if we do all the focussing on fixing things then they can opt to do less (consciously or subconsciously). Why worry or do any soul searching when someone else is doing all of it in the relationship?
Wesse, I can really relate to so much you wrote in your last post. My H has admitted or, I should perhaps say, claimed that he said some wonderfully positive or agreeable things in the past to me because he wanted to avoid one of my "moods" or just have the subject dropped at the time. Aren't those great admissions of using the worst communications skills possible? On my end of the responsibility though, there certainly were in hindsight those instances when I drilled way too much or "beat a dead horse." I've worked real hard during the last 1 1/2 years in thinking about what his likely response is going to be when I share something unpleasant with him and catch myself in my delivery like you wouldn't believe. I've been known in the past to throw a little too much sarcastic cutting into my tone. I refuse to keep the important things stored up inside me, but I do manage to process it all a little more carefully than my prior "shoot from the hip" ways.
As strange as it may sound, I almost find myself playing the conversation out in my head first and imagining the tone that will result should I pursue it one way verses another. It's not a game or allowing myself to be a doormat, but it's probably closest to envisioning how you would go about questioning the technically hostile witness and getting them to be a friendly one (I couldn't resist, given our cross-examination discussion earlier on).
Jamie, Thank you for responding to my questions. My H also is one of these people that doesn't want to consciously work on things, and certainly not at my urging. My urging and inquiries have done much damage. Do you think that statements to the effect that he's not coming back, it's over, get on with your life, could be attempts to keep me off his back so he can think at his own pace? Everytime he has said these things, he has followed it up with I'm not divorcing you. He has indicated before that I'm pressuring him, and if that's what's going to happen every few weeks, then it's over. So you see, I don't know if the wild statements are his attempt at making me stop OR talks or if he really means it. All I know is that he isn't intending to divorce me right now. In the beginning, he was saying give me time, but then I guess as I became impatient with his sloooooow pace, I pressured. The result has been further distancing and discouraging statements. I don't know how much longer I can give him. I'm trying in the meantime to go on without him and wondering if I should think about dating in case this marriage isn't going to work out. H says he is, and I should too. There again, I don't know whether to believe he really means this or not. Any ideas? We've been separated 10 months but the year before that was like a separation because he was gone emotionally.
Hey, Jamie, this is such a great thread, I think everyone should read your advice. You are a master DBer! Congratulations! I love the distinction you make about waiting for someone and remaining open to reconciliation. I agree that many reluctant spouses return to sanity when they feel their DB spouses letting go. You say it so well. Thanks! And thanks for inspiring so many people here. Please keep us posted on your progress. Michele
Jamie, I like your advice and feel that I have followed the same rules.
My H and I are now separated 8 months and talking about getting it together. When I do press H for answer, like a date, he gets distant and starts the MLC talk.
I know that you have followed my story. I have made great strides in the right direction dbing. I have been reading but not posting much.
I'm in a funk today and need so help. Tomorrow is my 16th anniversary. H has not asked about a date or weekend plans. I'm sad because I thought this would be a good point for us to move forward again. I feel like telling him to stay away until he can committ. Say's he wants to work it out not just for the kids but for us as well. Keeps stalling for time. We have spent the last 6 weekends together as a family. Most of time very plesant and normal. Lots of weeknights together as well. He stays over night at our house about 50% of the week.
Should I let the anniversary thing go? I think I'm really setting myself up for a disappointment.
You sound terrific ! I'm reading lot of wonderful developments in your relationship. It give me real hope and courage to move on.
I promise that once I get my hands on that book I'll give you a full report.