Good luck to you my friend....you have my e-mail address if you should need anything throughout the day.
All the best,
Rob
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
I'm sorry you are having such a hard time with this. It is incredibly painful stuff to go through. It is a choice you have made that carries with it a lot of consequences that are tough to deal with. But, it shows just how strong and understanding you really are.
I think it is time to get back to feeling that. What you are doing now isn't good for anyone, least of all yourself. And the most important thing about DBing is taking good care of yourself.
I am more moody in private but I think pretty good overall in front of her and others. I promise you, this is almost certainly not the case. I would be dumbfounded if your W can't read your moodiness and if she doesn't resent your silent sullenness.
I am already starting to do the passive/aggressive thing and I HATE that!
You are giving her more of the same, she doesn't know why, and it isn't going away. You are predicting how she will react and not giving her the chance to treat you decently or her the chance to see you be supportive while being respectful toward yourself and your own needs.
I think maybe the problem is that you are stuck in a DB mode in which the person has left the R pretty much entirely. In such a case, demanding info about the OP and making demands about contact is really entirely out of place. Their life is really none of your business in that case and that fact needs to be accepted. The ban on R talk and OP talk is to keep you from intruding on their personal space in unwelcome ways and to hopefully get you to take a look at yourself rather than obsessing about the OP and A.
However, you are in a different place now. W is not threatening divorce. W is initiating R talks. W seems to want to try to work on things. She is now back in the game. You are again in some kind of R together and what she is doing IS YOUR BUSINESS. It affects your choices. Her contact with OM is relevant to your boundaries -- boundaries that are YOURS but that you need to share with her. At this point, you are really starting to slip into victim mode.
WHO CARES if W thinks you were snooping? You can tell her directly what and how you found it. You CANNOT PREDICT what she will say reliably. Moreover, you CANNOT CONTROL her thoughts.
If she jumps all over you for snooping, that is her lashing out in anger because it makes her feel guilty and have bad feelings about herself. She is going to have those feelings, she is going to have to process those feelings.
All you are doing by avoiding is enabling her to keep up a reasonable level of comfort that is best maintained by some kind of interaction with OM so she doesn't have to face herself. She doesn't have to face herself because she isn't having to deal with authentic reactions from you and she doesn't have to deal with the fallout of a clean break with OM.
If she does accuse you of snooping, you can simply tell her, "W, I explained what happened, I wasn't looking for anything. And, right now we are talking about my boundaries with respect to you and OM and my requirement for honest communication here. I am not interested in being redirected to a sideline fight. If you want to discuss the snooping issue later, that is fine."
She is going to be mad and angry and unreasonable with you plenty of times throughout this--she will project over and over again. If you avoid conflict you miss the chance for an authentic honest R. You miss the chance to grow together rather than apart. You stay a player in the pattern that keeps this sh*t going.
The only winning move is not to play. (Didn't you learn anything from Wargames? )
P.P.S. Think of it this way... You are at least in some kind of R with W that is something like dating. For your own sake, you shouldn't be dating someone that you can get clear answers to for the following questions:
1) Are we in a monogomous R, physically and emotionally? 2) Are we in an open R that allows us to see OP with whom we are involved physically or emotionally? 3) Are we in an R in which we honestly disclose our contact with OP? 4) Are we in an R in which our private lives are our own business? 5) When is the last time you had unprotected sex? 6) When is the last time you were screened for STDs? 7) When is the last time you had oral/vaginal/anal sex? 8) Are you seeing OP? 9) Are you still involved with ex-boyfriends and if so how? 10) If we are in a monogomous R (emotionally and physically), what counts as cheating in your mind? 11) If we are not in a monogomous R (emotionally and physically), what counts as lying about your involvement with others in your mind? (Many people don't count non-disclosure or even "white lies" as lying when they are in open dating Rs.) 12) Do you have children with OP or might you be pregnant?
What are your boundaries with this dating R? Determine your boundaries, and then figure how far each of you are into the dating R. It probably is not healthy for you to be more into the R than she is.
Fine...being slow at work DOES NOT HELP but it does give me time to lurk around here, something I didn't want to do today...guess I'm doing a lot of things I don't want to do today.
OT, thanks. I KNOW I am f-ing up but I really feel, and this is NOT about how SHE'LL react, but how I will react, that tonight or sometime VERY soon is NOT the right time for me to have this talk with her. Oh, I AM likely to have it anyway but at least from my end, it won't be good I bet.
I don't know much about how she'll react. I THINK she will try to deny it and shift the focus on my snooping. I think she will do so in a way that ends the conversation unless I choose to just go on talking to her without her participation. It's how she's reacted every other time I have brought this kind of thing up.
So, while I don't much give a damn how she'll react, I am reasonably sure that however she reacts will make the conversation unproductive except that I finally got to express my pain and anger.
I thought I wanted to be compassionate and loving? So why talk to her now that decidedly DO NOT FEEL THAT WAY TOWARDS HER?
It's one thing to have the right to feel a certain way. We ALL felt that way in the beginning and were told in DB to not express those feelings...yet.
OT, you are telling me that finally I AM in a R that can support that kind of talk? Somehow I don't see that. I think she has said some good words but her actions don't necessarily back them up. I still feel like I am in full DB mode and thus R talk is off the table...but I am still going to do it and that's what bothers me so much. I don't feel like it's right but I am going to do it because I am just too tired to do anything else. I am going to do it and I don't much care if it makes my situation much worse than better.
Funny thing is that I really DO want to do it in a way that makes things better. I don't want to manipulate the situation to that end, but I do want to make sure I approach it the best way I can. Problem is that I just don't see what that way is.
I know I am all over the place today. I just feel lost today. I feel like all I have worked so hard for could be lost because I can't control myself. I feel like I am going to do the wrong thing and the sad part is, I don't even know what the wrong thing is.
Sorry OT, I am not capable of rationally doing a checklist today. The cold hard facts, or even suppositions of my sitch are not something I want to think about today.
Really, I have no clue where she is in all this and asking her is very unlikely to give me one. I know what she said, and what she said did not include NO contact with OM. Of course, she also said it was only an EA so who the hell knows what is true and what is not.
The main reason why I can't do the checklist other than my fatigue is that I am pretty sure she will lie about anything on that list, hence why I DON'T think we are at the point in our R that can support R talks or anything else.
Look, like I said, I know what is right and what is wrong here. I know what I need to do and probably somewhere down inside, I know how to do it. RIGHT NOW, this moment, I just don't have the energy/will to take action. Inaction, as you say, may be my most dangerous move but I can't seem to care too much. I have done SO much over the past 5 months and it's finally gotten to me. I hope this is just a SHORT phase.
There is a part of me that knows I will be fine. I CAN do this but I guess I just made the decision for at least a couple hours, to let my emotions take over. Bad idea, I know, but you know what, it's what I am doing.
I won't see W for another several hours and even then, the kids are around. I would have a chance to talk to her until late this evening. By then, if I have not gotten myself under control, we may have a very bad R talk. If I have gotten myself under control, I may find a way to express myself fully and still be supportive and compassionate.
I DO STILL love my W. That may never change. It's just what I am willing to suffer for a CHANCE at a renewed R with her that I am unsure of. That's what I need to decide between now and tonight.
You aren't F-ing up. You are doing your best during a difficult time. Your M does not hinge on the last 72 hours. But, it is time to find a healthier strategy.
Maybe it would help to put your energy into figuring out what a good talk for you would be -- what would you want to say and how would you want to say it? What boundaries would you communicate? What very few questions would you ask and how would you ask them? How would you react to possible things she may say (like the snooping thing) to keep things on course? How would you close the conversation?
You seem to be putting all your energy into stifling yourself. You keep telling yourself how bad the convo will be and how you don't have the resources to deal with it in the way you want to.
I think you should try telling yourself something else. "I am an incredibly strong and compassionate person who cares about myself, W, and our R. I am not perfect, but I can do my best to make this a valuable and caring conversation, which is what I need to do now to take care of myself and to take ownership of my own choices and their consequences. I can do a really great job at this, because I have grown so much. I like being like this and I want to keep it going. I will do my best while accepting that I am human. I will be caring and direct. I will not shout but I will not protect W from my pain. I will truly share myself with her and see what happens. I am strong enough to take this risk, I care enough to take this risk."
Maybe try writing down some talking points, even dialoguing with yourself and a pretend W on paper to get your thoughts straight, will help both prepare you for a real conversation and get you unstuck from where you have been since before the weekend.
Just work on the conversation and clarifying your own thoughts and desires. It really will help alot. Then, you can reassess and figure out if you are ready to talk to her or if you still want to wait.
Now, as to what kind of R you are in with W, that is really up to you. To me it seems as though you and she have both returned to some kind of dating R. You at least have. You either need to get what you need to make that an OK R for you to be in, or you need to step back out of the R so that your life is your business and her life is her business for awhile. I'm not sure that would be helpful to simply do that because you are afraid to talk to her though. If I were in your shoes, I'd want more information upon which to base such a decision.
Well...first off, thanks OT for your kudos...coming from you that means a lot to me.
Secondly GH, I think OT brings up some very good points...the fact is, and correct me if I am wrong, but your W did state her intention to seek reconciliation with you did she not? Her actions or inactions may, at least in your mind, speak otherwise, but the point is she did express that intention. The questions that OT poses are very good ones. They aren't designed to manipulate any situation, but they do put forth some very valid concerns. The point is, if she can't be straightforward and honest about them, then at the least, you know where things stand.
Yes, I suspect that your W will try to shift the focus back onto your snooping (if it can be correctly labeled as such), mine has done the same thing to me whenever something comes to light that I "shouldn't" have found out about. But, the fact is...you do know about it, whether you meant to find it or not. I guess in some respects, its as much about her reaction that you should be concerned about...if she does shift the focus, then at least that tells you that she is NOT in a position to be open and honest about your relationship, and that, in and of itself, speaks volumes.
Being compassionate and loving doesn't mean being docile and passive....I think you can still have your concerns aired here. I guess its your reaction to whatever answers to you may or may not recieve that will determine whether your are being compassionate and loving. If she comes clean, then compassionate and loving may mean your forgiveneess and acceptance to move beyond the sitch. If she doesn't come clean, then being compassionate and loving would mean accepting that your R hasn't progressed to the point that you thought it had, and understanding why it hasn't (whether its because she isn't ready for it yet, etc.) and affording her the space necessary to get to that point.
In any event, holding it any further is only going to be counter productive to you and your goals....you have a right to express how you feel, but it doesn't necessarily guarantee a right to have her feel the same way back. Either way, you will know where you stand.
Hopefully that makes sense....I'm sure others can put it much more eloquently than I can.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
By the way, it seems as though OT beat me to the punch in her previous post....pretty much what I was thinking, but couldn't say
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
Rob, have you been taking lessons from OT? That's some really good stuff, and OT I really thank you for not only what you said, but the way you said it.
Ok, this is one time where I don't think I have the strength to do much right now but I will lean on you two and take some from you. You both have laid out a plan for me to hopefully get me moving on this.
For the rest of the day, I will try to write some things out and dialog with myself. I think that is a great idea, something I don't normally do. I would LOVE to just writer her a letter but as those of you who go WAY back with me know, my W hates that so here I am, trying to improvise.
I may or may not post what I write as my "script" but no matter what, thanks again Rob and OT. You have both done wonders for me this morning.
)
(Great post Rob...) 