Quote: Now, the other thing I am afraid of is an outright denial, her saying that it was for someone else or something. What do I do then? I know in my mind I would be screaming "liar" over and over again but I don't think I want to say that. I guess I would just let it drop at that point and as Rob said, accept that things are not as far along as I thought.
Okay, now your really pulling out the tough questions, lol. Oh boy, see this is where my nature comes into play because my first instict would be show her Exhibit "A" and prove that I know exactly what I'm talking about, etc. etc. etc. Yeah, you can see why I have had trouble with my R.
That being said, i don't think it is necessarily wise to just give up at that point. Remember, you have had a nagging suspicion that it was a PA to begin with and this was a conversation that you wanted to have even before your discovery. Perhpas at that point you should respond with something along the lines of ....even putting aside that receipt, I have had a concern that the R between you and OM may have been physical and then lay out the reasons why that does concern and what your expectations are for getting past that. If she continues to balk, then it is clear that she really hasn't reached the point in the R where she is confortable, but at least you have voiced your concerns. Again, she will hear you and your validation and compassion will go a long way to softening her defenses in the future.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
One last word of advice: If she chooses not to engage, under no circumstances do you continue to press the issue if she has effectively shut you down.
Lol, good advice. I sure don't know where to draw the line between immediately backing off if she shuts down and doing more of what I suggested. Once there is a clear committed R, the answer is much easier.
At this point though, if she really is not ready to talk, then any comforting touch and words, any gentle encouragement to talk may be taken simply as crowding/pressuring.
Also, pushing someone to answers they aren't ready to give because they don't know the answers themselves almost always leads to bad results.
So, maybe, a brief effort-- a hug + "I know this is scary and hard, I promise to try my best to be supportive and to not push you for answers you aren't ready to give..." {Hmmm, maybe say this pre-emptively???}
Then, a follow-up plan on how to close the convo if she runs away. What about following her, giving her a gentle rub on the back and saying something like, "It's OK, I don't need you to talk right now or have answers now. I don't want to rush you or crowd you. You need to figure out some things on your own and I understand that. I'm here when you are ready to share. I've said what I've needed to, and shared what is going on with me. I know what I need to do for my own emotional health, which is to make the space in the R that we both still need through this confusing time. It is very important to me that you figure out what you want for YOU. My understanding is that right now this means that we should not be assuming an exclusive R in which we are open books with respect to our private lives. I hope for something else in the future, but it is my choice to accept this for now and see where things take us."
Man, I do not envy you GH, lol. What a sticky wicket! Then again, she might not run away, and you can't control whether she does or not...
Quote: Also, pushing someone to answers they aren't ready to give because they don't know the answers themselves almost always leads to bad results.
I think this is some of the most valuable insight I've gained today. How guilty have I been of that in the past.....forutnately I've come to recongize it over the past few months....
Quote: So, maybe, a brief effort-- a hug + "I know this is scary and hard, I promise to try my best to be supportive and to not push you for answers you aren't ready to give..." {Hmmm, maybe say this pre-emptively???}
I really like this approach!
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
Quote: "It's OK, I don't need you to talk right now or have answers now. I don't want to rush you or crowd you. You need to figure out some things on your own and I understand that. I'm here when you are ready to share. I've said what I've needed to, and shared what is going on with me. I know what I need to do for my own emotional health, which is to make the space in the R that we both still need through this confusing time. It is very important to me that you figure out what you want for YOU. My understanding is that right now this means that we should not be assuming an exclusive R in which we are open books with respect to our private lives. I hope for something else in the future, but it is my choice to accept this for now and see where things take us."
OT, do you find these things in a WAW script book? I think this is one of the best scripts I've read so far...I like it and given its applicability to just about any sitch, I'm priting it for future use. Thank you.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
We cross-posted. I was asking about what you answered in the last part of that post. Thank you. I think I could stop pursuing that line of questioning.
I am nervous as hell about this. For months now, this has been the opposite of what I have done. It's really hard to switch gears like this.
I have been stewing on this for several days now. I think it's time. As for writing it down for her, as I alluded to, my W HATES when I write letters to her. She knows I can write well and thinks I have too much edit time. She wants to hear it from me, unfiltered I guess. I have NO idea why. I would love it if she would write something down for me but that's why we're different I suppose.
Oh, and BTW, when my W turns this around, she REALLY turns it around. When I have asked/accused/whatever about the PA in the past, she went off on me, asking me what kind of person I thought she was, etc. It's not like she shuts down, she attacks full force...then shuts down. She's very good at what she does. She VEHAMENTLY denies this thing when she does manage to deny it. We'll see what happens this time. Too bad I think it will be more of that and less of the "openness" part. I just don't think she's ready for whatever reason...yet I persist...tonight...
I like your own answer on the tough question of outright denial...
I guess I agree that if there is an outright denial, there is not much you can do... I don't think pushing it will help, she will feel like you don't trust her, which would be true, lol... She can't admit it to you, in any case, until she can be honest with herself and you can't make her do that...
But, I also agree with Rob that you don't want to simply passively drop it.
Maybe a direct honest reaction (yet again, lol), "Wow, I guess I'm afraid to believe that, I'm scared I would be fooling myself and letting us both down in the long run. My intuitions and things I have seen really tell me that there is more to the physical side and that there is or was a concern about pregnancy. But, that is my problem right now and I'll have to find a way to deal with those thoughts and feelings.
As for talking about it right now, I guess I'm feeling like this conversation can't really go anywhere until we are both feel like we are freely choosing based on our own wishes to do the hard work it will take to rebuild trust. I don't feel confident that we are there yet, so I guess we need to set this to the side for awhile and maybe revisit it later. Right now, more rounds of denials and accusations aren't going to do either of us any good because we aren't in a clear R-building mode. That isn't necessarily a bad thing -- growth takes both space and time, and we both need some measure of that if we are to find a healthy R, and I'm certainly no expert on how much of either I need or you need."
Anyway, whatever happens will be good enough, your heart and mind are both in the right place. That makes your actions right -- you simply can't control her reactions and all the consequences. You can only sincerely try your best, and that is always good enough in my book.
OT, do you find these things in a WAW script book?
Let's just say I know what didn't work with XH. Even though I know that could never have been a good R for me, I also know what was counterproductive in getting to a point of resolution in that XM.
I also was lucky enough to have grown alot and learned alot that allowed me to work through some issues with H in ways that helped us both before we got M. One of the best things I said more than once and that I truly lived by in a fairly accepting way because it way *my choice*, though it wasn't always easy, was "I am not going to be in this R more than you are, it isn't good for anyone, especially me."
Oh, and P.S. GH...
Re the outright denial and your head shouting "LIAR" to you... I sincerely think it is different than the lie of the uncaring WAS who is in a FU mode saying get the F out of my biz with the lies.
I think your W is in a very very different place than that. She is trying her best to be honest with you, there is only so much honesty with herself she can bear at once... I think she feels horrible lying to you and is giving you as much honesty as she can face and as she can risk. Even once she accepts it, she has to risk losing you with each thing she tells you. That is why it is so much easier for her to keep avoiding herself, the truth, dealing with cutting OM off, etc... She really is trying though, it will be a long struggle. When she can finally get it all out and feel like she has a clean slate, it will be a huge turning point.
Anyway, if you get the denial, don't hear "LIAR", hear her telling you that right now she hates herself and is too scared to tell you more...
I definitely have been here before....as we have established GH, your W and mine could be sisters (or even the same person for all we know). I guess the point here is that even if she does attack, you still have gotten a point across and then by following up with some of the statements that OT has been so kind to provide, you may come away losing the battle, but ultimately winning the war. Think about it, I don't know about you, but in the past, I would respond to her denials by upping the ante and getting defensive and accusatory in my response. Always wanting to be right. If this is you, then responding as OT had suggested would be a HUGE 180 on your part and would get you points in the long run. At the very least, you didn't remain idly by.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
