I see possibly as a an effort to comfort S10's fears and not address the issue completely with him. If this is the case I believe she is setting up a bit of resentment and distrust from him if D is in the future. She is deluding him, and protecting him (not that it is bad). IMO, Best to have left it at mommy and daddy love you and always will. This is not of your doing and do not think that it is.
OR
She is making a clear effort to shake me up and has taken D off table but will not let me know or is in the process of doing so. Making the point very clear that my actions are causing her issues.
In reality it does not matter b/c it is speculation.
If it is speculation, which it IS, why focus on it?! Your W probably really Doesn't know what she wants. And Definitely don't go thru your S to get more information. If he is feeling good right now, then just let him. Don't burst his bubble. To the contrary of pursuit, any detachment I give or space I give is deemed moppy and sulking. If I opt to take kids out without her...sulking and trying to prove a point. If I choose to sit and watch TV...sulking and moppy If I choose to check emails from work on computer in basement...pouting and moppy I don't understand this. Did she come right out and SAY when you do those things you are moppy/pouting/sulking? Or is this all your interpretation? And why would this be the case at all? ARE you sulking when you do those things? That's the whole point of really detaching vs acting like you are detaching. Clearly she thinks it's all an act or you wouldn't report those actions as being associated with a moppy attitude.
I am not going through son. This information he shared by his free will. I fully understand the need to sheild him and my other 2 sons form all of this.
Speculation it may be, but it is intriguing form where she is operating. I am operating form the only position I can, myself. In the future, if she decides t stay and move forward, to actually work form a basis not steeped in resentment than I might be more inclined to delve into her issues when she shares.
Yes she has come out and said this. I only state this as my POV to truy detach may not achieve the same results as others have seen. When I do these things or when I am home. I truly try to be happy and upbeat. And most of the time I am. I am moving in direction where I am not fixating on things and issues in my Marriage at home. Trying to be a better dad and repair relationships with my kids an be there for them. I am unable to help my wife or fix her issues. I do not know what they are. As we all agree upon it took two to get here. But until she can get to a point where she wants to really look at what WE are doing, it is mute.
To her she is skeptical, and not unjustified. Until she can trust me and work from that stance, she will always see my actions as false. I am unable to change that by any other means than consistancy.
I believe until she is ready to join me in taking the leap of faith, she will always view my actions as manipulative and false.
Through honest giving of my love I will recieve 10 fold in return.
Just because a person does not love you in the way you want, does not mean they do not love you!
To the contrary of pursuit, any detachment I give or space I give is deemed moppy and sulking. If I opt to take kids out without her...sulking and trying to prove a point. If I choose to sit and watch TV...sulking and moppy If I choose to check emails from work on computer in basement...pouting and moppy.
So what? Why do you need to worry about her mood? That’s her business. Let her sulk all she wants. This is how I see it – through sulking she might get the message that D is not the answer and she might not like it. She needs to understand and feel this. She is doing this on her own by sulking and getting depressed. So why do you want to rescue her from this process of self discovery, only to turn around and implement some power play to get the very same message across?
Sometimes the best road to your objective is not always the one you want, it is not always the one that will make YOU look good. Let her have some credit for coming to her own realizations and stop trying to be the hero. She has shown you repeatedly she does not you to be the one fixing her. You think you do this out of loyalty, love, dedication, concern to her. But she sees is as an attempt to get al the glory and have her beholding to you. In that way I think she has a REAL point. Isn’t that what she is saying by not wanting you to one up her on something as small as cleaning the kitchen?
I was unclear I think. When I do those things she comments that it is I that is puting or sulking. I do not respond, she is entitled to her thoughts.
If you are hinting that I chose to do the things around the house to get in good favor, WORNG. I do no more than I always have. Before all this she stated she felt unsupported in keeping up with the work, so I try and do what I can. Last night was just getting the dishes out before the morning so it was done.
It is no glory thing.
F4W
Through honest giving of my love I will recieve 10 fold in return.
Just because a person does not love you in the way you want, does not mean they do not love you!
Sorry, I misunderstood. I don’t think you do things around the house to get glory from her, I think that SHE thinks you do, therefore her one-up comment. The glory part I was talking about was based on my misunderstanding of who was doing the sulking.
I look at it like this and correct me (I am sure there may be some).
I control me. I control my actions and reactions. I strive and continue to strive to exist in our house by doing what I have been doing in regards to home, family and children. This is imperative. If she has issues with that those are her issues (as false or misdirected I feel they are and how I feel that she is incapable of releasing the resentment and whatever else is there) to deal with. Her choice to deal with those issues or not and how she wishes to interact or decide to do are beyond my fixing and in reality are not mine to fix.
Her choice of remaining in the M and working at creating a better, more understanding, and healthy M is completely hers. It is also her choice if she wishes to throw it away if she feels that is a solution to her problem.
In either choice I will have choices to make.
So for now, I am a dad, a friend, I have my job and those responsibilities. I am not a H right now to W, though I will continue to do those duties a H does as long as they do not conflict with givig W space.
F4W
Through honest giving of my love I will recieve 10 fold in return.
Just because a person does not love you in the way you want, does not mean they do not love you!
Posting a letter I want to send, but doubt I will. Trying to get some things off my chest and maybe here will allow me to do that:
Wife,
It always seem that I write e-mails to you regarding me and my feelings. Part of that reason is because I can review and clearly state what I am trying to say without being flustered. I know that I get flustered because I do not want to say the wrong thing when I am talking to you regarding us. I am choosing this time because I do not want to send this to you while I am away nor when I return.
It is a difficult subject. It is a huge subject. I have tried to communicate this many times but have failed in approaching this from, as you have stated, my "job self". I never meant to treat you like one of the people in my office, but can understand and see how that has come across.
I know you need time to just clear everything off your plate and clear your mind. I understand that and am trying very hard to honor and respect that. It is easier for me I guess because my job affords me time to be able to think. Yours does not afford that, or at least has not for the last several weeks. I would like to share with you some things about me and this whole process that might shed some light into me.
Over the past several months I have been frustrated at why things were not where I felt they should be, when in reality there were exactly where I wanted them to be but was unable to see that because of my fear and failure to totally give to you. In doing that I took the approach that the issue lay in the relationship and placed the onus on you. I was wrong. The approach that I should have taken was to make changes in myself. Accept the fact that you made a choice to be here, with me, with our family, and stay in our marriage. I looked for reasons to find holes in it and nit pick it. All because I could not give you complete trust. That came from me not letting everything go.
I believe I have a clearer understanding of where I need to change to truly give in this relationship. Like I stated before. I am looking at us as a future and not live in our past mistakes. The part of the past that I truly feel I need to remember are the positive in our dating and in our marriage. Every Relationship is going to have peaks and valleys. We have been in this valley for a while. Although we have came out of the valley we have always found something to bring us back to the starting point. I have made mistakes over the past year. I have tried different ways to try and approach the issue but never from the standpoint of personal growth.
Over the past several months I have been a part of a support group online. This is based from one of the many books I have read on trying improve oneself and improving one's marriage. With that support group there have been countless people giving support and advice. The downfall was taking the advice of people in regard to our relationship and recently I have stopped doing that and been looking more into the analysis of myself, my fears, my actions, and trying to work on me. My greatest frustration was trying to expect the same results of others in my relationship doing what they were doing, not remembering that our relationship is ours. It is unique to us. And no-one can fully comprehend our relationship because they are not in our relationship and one person'[s results does not mean the same in our relationship. But when I turn my focus off that and to me, it makes better sense. There were a few in the group that had the courage to confront me on my issues. What they said made sense and hit very close to home. I know who I am and what I am capable of doing and which changes will be easier and which changes will be harder. With that understanding I see where I need to change. Some of those changes is to be able to forget. Forgive I can and have done. Forget is something I chose not to do. In doing so I chose to harbor resentment and that fuels frustration. I need to forget the negatives. Focus on the positives. Quit emphasizing the downfalls and faults and amplify the positives and attributes. Another is to be able to allow differentiate myself, that is to say do not become dependant on others to create my happiness. I create that and is augmented by others. Another is to face my fears and deal with them.
This really hit home in the past two weeks two different times within 2 hours of each other. The first was talking with <Attorney>. In what was supposed to be a "what can I expect talk" turned into a been there and done that talk. We discussed many things about me and similarities in he and I. He, of course, is not a counselor, but has extensive experience in being in counseling and saved his marriage because he chose to change, and he sees everyday issues in marriages and rarely sees where ending one is the best solution, in some cases like I wrote of before it is. It was he that hit the point home that relationships are unique. That only the two in he relationship can make changes that effect a positive outcome by honestly communicating and hearing the other person. By meeting the needs of the other person because in doing so you show honor and commitment and love to that person when you do that. The second was a newsletter from a nationally recognized marriage counselor. In that newsletter, there was a letter and response to a person who was ready to end their marriage. I attached the newsletter. At first I saw you but when I re-read it again I saw me also.
In reading the newsletter is when I realized I was incorporating a lot of what they were saying in my efforts to "fix" our marriage. Where I should have been fixing myself to do "honest and loving giving". At times I did that, but others I did not. The part that struck me the most was the end of the letter.
I also understand from another person in the group that I have been bundling. By that I have not kept incidents or issues separate. I have been grouping them together. Each one is it's own event and needs to be dealt with as such. I did not validate the efforts you have made in each incident then left it as resolved. Example, your efforts to call and let me know what is going on and where you were. You did that to ease my tension and fear. I took that as "it is about time" instead of, "you know what, she does not need to do that...she is doing that for me and I need to be grateful for that." The other was kisses, always judging by the type, length and duration. Instead of seeing the effort to do that and that you did it. All based from bundling and adding them together, not looking at it from a positive angle.
When I see you know I see many things, I highlighted those in the dictionary I gave to you. I also see many issues at play, as you have stated. I was very sincere when I said it hurts to see you this way and hear the comments you make. I know it is not your intention to hurt me, but it is from an empathy standpoint that I do. I understand that I cannot fix your issues at work, that I cannot fix the issues with your Mother and her illness, that I cannot fix the issues with your friends when they come to you with their issues. I know that I can fix the issues with me, but only from the standpoint of changing what I can change. I understand how wrong it was to try and put our relationship issues in front of it all. That again I attribute to bundling, and adding another check mark to the negative column. Placing a greater sense of my importance above other issues. It is that way for me but wrong to assume it is that way for you.
I know that I cannot change the past. I cannot change my actions. I can only continue to change my future actions and how I react. There is no doubt I made the right choice in marrying you. I have no doubt in my mind of who I love. I regret not being able to see you "leap of faith" and since you said that yesterday, I understand and do see where you were doing that.
I hope you can believe these words. They are again from my heart. It is me bearing my most inner self with you. I trust you.
F4W
Through honest giving of my love I will recieve 10 fold in return.
Just because a person does not love you in the way you want, does not mean they do not love you!
The attachement" From: Michele Weiner-Davis To: Newsletter Member Date: 5/10/2006 11:24 AM Subject: Divorce Busting Newsletter 5-10-06 G
The Divorce Busting® Newsletter 05 10 06 by Michele Weiner Davis ================================================ Feel free to pass this along to a friend to sign up for this free newsletter. =====================================================
Today's Topics
1. "I've tried everything and my marriage isn't working"
2. Free On line Keeping Love Alive group May 14th.
****************************************************************************** ** Hi, I have two newsletters, one for mental health professionals and one for everyone else. I just sent out a newsletter very similar to this one to my colleagues but it contains some items that I thought you might like to read and pass on to anyone who might be helped by it. Although this Q&A is a reprint, it is so important, that I thought I would send it out again. I hope you find this helpful. And please note, if you need some advice to get things on track in your marriage, we have new Divorce Busting telephone hours available. You can have your own personal coach advising you in the privacy of your own home or office, at a convenient time FOR YOU! I have handpicked and personally trained these wonderful coaches. You will be in great hands. They all have long term marriages that demonstrate how they walk the talk.
Happy almost Mother's Day to all those mothers out there.
Take care, Michele
********** 1. "I'm working on my marriage, but it still isn't working." Question: Michele, after reading your books (Divorce Remedy, Divorce Busting and Getting Through to the Man You Love), I have one question: The underlying assumption of all three books is that you DO love your spouse. I am in a situation in which I don't really love my spouse, and actually often don't like or respect him. Yet he is a good father, and our children are incredibly devoted to our little family. I definitely believe that a divorce would be the best thing for ME (and probably for him), but the worst thing for my children. It's been hard for me to try to divorce bust because I can't seem to get over the hump of feeling I'm knocking myself out to work on something I don't really want, namely, staying married to my husband. Does this mean mine is just one of the marriages that can't be saved? Most of the posts I read on the boards seem to be from people who WANT their spouses. Any comments would be appreciated, and I'm sure would be enlightening to many on the board, because I've heard from many about to be Walkaway Wife's who feel the same way I do little, if any, love or respect for our spouses, and little, if any, desire to be married to them. Thank you. Jenny
ANSWER Dear Jenny, You ask an interesting question and I hope my response will be helpful.
First, I want you to know that your assumption that my books presuppose love for one's spouse is completely incorrect. My books presuppose a commitment to working on one's marriage. It is absolutely true that when you love your spouse, it makes going through the hard times more palatable and sharing the good times more enjoyable. No question about it. But I don't assume people reading the books love their spouses.
I know you won't like what I'm about to say, but I can tell from your post that you have never really committed to working on your marriage. Yes, I know you've had a telephone consultation and some counseling. But that doth not commitment make. Too many people say they're working on their marriages when they drag their bodies to therapy or talk to some sort of expert. That's not even scratching the surface. Working on your marriage means making the decision to be there in spirit, not necessarily to be head over heels in love when you start, but to invest yourself fully.
Working on your marriage means giving of yourself completely, putting your spouse's needs before your own and vise versa. It means quitting the game of keeping score. It means forgiving and letting go. Working on your marriage means focusing on people's strengths and downplaying their shortcomings. It means not expecting to have all or even the majority of your needs satisfied by one person. It means vowing to have a full and satisfying life of your own so that you don't blame your spouse unfairly about your unhappiness. It means appreciating the little things and overlooking life's annoyances. It means recognizing that no one, not even you or me, is perfect.
I'm not sure why I think this, but I have a distinct feeling that you are holding on to resentments from the past. (I don't even know you but the feeling is there nonetheless). It seems to me, that your current willingness to stay is built on guilt and self sacrifice rather than any pleasure derived from the gift you would be giving your children and "your little family" and as a result, yourself. As long as you look at staying through the eyes of resentment, you will not be able to fully immerse yourself in what you need to do to make your family truly work.
Unfortunately, no one, not your parents, friends, family, therapist, clergy or me, can make the decision to have a good, healthy family for you. Only you can make that choice. You have been sitting on the fence staying but holding back. (Maybe that's why you chose Paradox as your username.) This won't get you where you need to go. I can promise you that. Make a decision. Own your decision. Stop fooling yourself into thinking you're working on things when you're not. If you feel you can't forgive and start fresh, take ownership of that. Go. However, you know my first choice. But in the end, that doesn't really matter. Yours is the choice that matters. If you choose marriage, the rest is relatively easy. You decide. Love is a decision. Michele ************************************** 2. Free Keeping Love Alive On line Group
If you are interested in participating in a free, on line Keeping Love Alive group, let purchase your Keeping Love Alive program now. The group will begin on May 14th.
Until next time, Keep DBing,
Michele Weiner Davis
PERMISSION TO REPRINT: In the past, I've received many requests for permission to reprint sections from the Divorce Busting newsletter. You may reprint a section or article in your own print or electronic newsletter if you let me know you will be using it and you must include the following paragraph at the end of the article.
Now...out of all the letters to a spouse I've seen on here, this is one I absolutely believe you should give her.
There is no blaming her for anything in here....there is no finger pointing, and you are not only taking responsibility for your contributions to the state of your M....but you are letting her know that you are looking within yourself (not her) to make changes for the better.
