If I do not show attention and affection I may lose her.
If I show affection and attention, I may lose her.
How about the third option, I just act as if, quit creating drama, place this matter in the hands of God, and just be a father, a husband, and a better person. Continue to grow, continue to work on my issues holding me back, and continue to change in a way my Wife wants and let her decide if she wants to stay or go.
F4W (who is leaving to get his kids and be a dad)
Through honest giving of my love I will recieve 10 fold in return.
Just because a person does not love you in the way you want, does not mean they do not love you!
Just concerned and trying work from a spot where I feel comfortable and not mucking it up.
As I stated before, when this was happening and I detached, A happened.
As CObra and others have stated, recently when I was detaching progress was happening but I WAS impatient and reset the field.
Please do not think I am dismissing anyones advice. It is appreciated. Ultimately, I will need to know what is best with my knowledge of my wife and my knowledge of me.
F4W
Through honest giving of my love I will recieve 10 fold in return.
Just because a person does not love you in the way you want, does not mean they do not love you!
it’s only safe to not to want your partner when you partner wants you. I find that an odd statement (from Schnarch?). I mean, it almost sounds like it justifies all of the LD, no-effort S's who some people on this board are M to. Soru of like "I don't need to want him/her too much because I know she'll always do the work, the chase, etc." Maybe I just am taking it too far out of context.
If she leaves over this, then she was probably leaving anyway. Otherwise, they are both miserable. I got my marriage back by completely detaching. Any amount of pursuit I did backfired everytime. It simply isn't attractive. I have to say, I pretty much agree with this. That's just about how it played out in my M too. But again, everyone is different. Just adding another "yes, that can work" vote into the mix.
I think Cobra was offering advice based on the assumption that both F4W and his wife are not differentiated enough to behave as though they were differentiated. In the quote from Schnarch, Schnarch was describing the unfortunate state of being fused, not prescribing a course of action based on fusion. I'm not sure if I agree with Cobra's theory that you will cause more problems than you will solve by acting more diffentiated than you are. Though, as Schnarch said, acting differentiated is not at all the same as being differentiated, you have to start somewhere. I sometimes think it is better to grow by forcing myself to behave in a certain way and then deal with my feelings/fears as they arise, rather than waiting to overcome my fears or analyze my feelings before I act. Before everyone on the BB slams me for talking the talk rather than walking the walk, I should point out that I think it is "better" to act, not "easier".
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
acting differentiated is not at all the same as being differentiated, you have to start somewhere. I sometimes think it is better to grow by forcing myself to behave in a certain way and then deal with my feelings/fears as they arise, rather than waiting to overcome my fears or analyze my feelings before I act. I totally agree. Can you FORCE differentiation. I think you can but you need to do it in such a way that the other person truly believes it is not an "act" as you stated. That's why threatening D as a means of making the M better can really backfire. It's still a ploy. If you threaten D, you better be pretty confident, or deluded (somewhat how my H was) that you mean business. So yes, the S I went thru, I think, forced me to grow, just like many traumatic experiences in a person's life. I needed to take that time to work on me and stop putting energy into "fixing" H. Only he could do that. So I think F4W should really take some time to work on himself as well. He still seems overly focused on his W, but that's my perspective.
Quote: That's why threatening D as a means of making the M better can really backfire. It's still a ploy. If you threaten D, you better be pretty confident, or deluded (somewhat how my H was) that you mean business.
Yeah, that's why it was pretty lame when I threatened to take a lover. A woman who can not co-ordinate wardrobe accessories is not capable of co-ordinating a husband and a lover. My H is the one who has threatened to leave repeatedly due to my demands. The very first Schnarchian encounter we had years ago, he started throwing stuff in a suitcase and then just last weekend he was talking about getting his own apartment. What I have to watch in myself is my previous pathetic tendency to be sick with fright when he does this and my current angry tendency to start thinking "Hey, that might just be a good idea." when he threatens. I am 90-something% certain that he wouldn't actually go through with it if left to his own devices or would end up feeling pathetic like your H if he went so far. But, now that I think about it, Cobra does have a point when he says that this kind of behavior or level of interaction is risky. During a fight, my FIL's live-in girlfriend of 10 years angrily said "Why don't you just go then?!". My FIL reacted by simply walking out, driving 1500 miles away to stay with my H and me temporarily and then marrying another woman within a few monthes.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
But, now that I think about it, Cobra does have a point when he says that this kind of behavior or level of interaction is risky.
Remember that when these things happen, like you describe, the person is in what the Dog Whisperer calls the “red zone.” At that point he says there is nothing you can do but let the emotions pass. So setting a boundary or trying to differentiate when your spouse is in that state looks exactly the same as escalation. My W did this to me. Now I can see she was simply detaching, but at the time I was SOOOO angry, all I saw was her upping the ante. My only thought was if she wants a fight, then I’ll give it to her.
That is why I think that re-enmeshment can be a good thing when people are in the “red zone.” BUT this cannot become a habitual thing. The other person will quickly learn to take advantage of it. I only recommend this when there is a high level of anger AND the relationship is teetering on the verge of filing papers. This is why I told Heather to ease up a little, acknowledge her H, make some accommodations for him, all to back him out of the red zone into a little more rational state in which differentiation can make a difference.
Being in perpetual thought on this matter, I have come to some conclusions or more questions, I am not sure.
In the currnet state of mind of my Wife, anything that is done by me that is "normal" is going to be seen as a form of pursuit. That is to say if I make a compliment...pursuit. If I initiate a contact (hug, kiss, touch)...pursuit
AOS, WOA, etc...pursuit or one upping! (Example, I was emptying the dishwasher before bed. She came into kitchen with soem dishes. Immediately, while I was emptying the dishwasher, as soon as I completed she was rapidly putting the cups she brought in in the dishwasher and cleaning countertops. She had to make the point she was not going to be "one upped" or so was my take on it.)
To the contrary of pursuit, any detachment I give or space I give is deemed moppy and sulking.
If I opt to take kids out without her...sulking and trying to prove a point.
If I choose to sit and watch TV...sulking and moppy
If I choose to check emails from work on computer in basement...pouting and moppy.
So there is no course of action I can take to appease her. The only course I believe is the safe course is to continue to strive to meet her wishes in changing behaviors she has identified as issues for her and "comfort myself".
At this time I believe the analogy of wife being in a "red zone" is correct. And with her operating in that state of mind, every action is hightened and spun in a way to keep her there. The only action I can make while this is occuring is to not react. That is to say not inflame her stance by defending myself or clarifying my actions.
Interesting information from last night. S10 has been dealing with this as any child would. Lashing out, misbehavior, and seeking attention through those actions. My W had a 20 minute talk 2 nights ago with him, after she unloaded on him for not putting his folded socks in his drawer. I had seen the socks and instead of doing it for him, I left them there. When I asked her after what the deal is with S10 was. She simply replied that she talked with him and sang to him, no big deal.
Well, S10 comes to me yesterday in a great mood. I said it is good to see you in a better mood. He commented he does not feel sad. I ask why. He says Mom and I talked and I feel better. I ask why? He related that mom said he should not be sad about us ending up in divorce. That we love him and it will be alright. She said many kids he knows have it worse. That we probably will not divorce and it will get better. If we do he will be fine.
Any takers on breaking that one down?
I see possibly as a an effort to comfort S10's fears and not address the issue completely with him. If this is the case I believe she is setting up a bit of resentment and distrust from him if D is in the future. She is deluding him, and protecting him (not that it is bad). IMO, Best to have left it at mommy and daddy love you and always will. This is not of your doing and do not think that it is.
OR
She is making a clear effort to shake me up and has taken D off table but will not let me know or is in the process of doing so. Making the point very clear that my actions are causing her issues.
In reality it does not matter b/c it is speculation.
F4W
Through honest giving of my love I will recieve 10 fold in return.
Just because a person does not love you in the way you want, does not mean they do not love you!
(somewhat how my H was) that you mean business. 
My H is the one who has threatened to leave repeatedly due to my demands. The very first Schnarchian encounter we had years ago, he started throwing stuff in a suitcase and then just last weekend he was talking about getting his own apartment. What I have to watch in myself is my previous pathetic tendency to be sick with fright when he does this and my current angry tendency to start thinking "Hey, that might just be a good idea." when he threatens. I am 90-something% certain that he wouldn't actually go through with it if left to his own devices or would end up feeling pathetic like your H if he went so far. But, now that I think about it, Cobra does have a point when he says that this kind of behavior or level of interaction is risky. During a fight, my FIL's live-in girlfriend of 10 years angrily said "Why don't you just go then?!". My FIL reacted by simply walking out, driving 1500 miles away to stay with my H and me temporarily and then marrying another woman within a few monthes.