Suz, I decided to read the whole thread, my comment is I'd separate from him for a while. I'd read the part in Dbusitng which suggests totally detaching. If this doesn't work I'd suggest leaving him. This is out of the blue for me but I know how hard it is with my H but the drinking is making it harder.
He needs to get help with his drinking because otherwise your both going to be going in circles. Sorry this is my 2 cents.
You don't have to put up with this, it seems that he is piling all his problems on to you, He is an adult you shouldn't have to stay up all night like his mommy. You need to get him to face up to things and as Covenant said sometimes leaving is all one can do. He has been in your husband position.
okay well I have a dumb thing to ask but going to anyways...
earlier today, H came home today and discovered the kids made a big mess out of the downstairs while I was cleaning the upstairs bathrooms. He was very angry and told them to get cleaning and said he was going to move out and live somewhere else rather then live like this. He yelled at them for a while. Which I didnt like and didnt like that he was telling the kids he was going to go live some where else.
then came to talk to me about it. we didnt argue... I just did a lot of listening to him complain about the kids and tell me what he thinks would be good solutions. I agreed with all he said. I wasnt happy about all they had managed to do either and was eager to get to cleaning up what they couldnt clean up. My youngest leaned on the kitchen table causing all their bowls of cereal, tea and juice to go all over the floor. After having them straighten up the family room and living room we sent them upstairs to their rooms.
I thought I was done listening to my H talking about it all and how upset he was over their behavior, so I went to start cleaning up the kitchen floor. He stopped me and said come here, stand here (in the kitchen looking at all the mess) he went on to complain and point out all they did. I didnt want to keep hearing the same thing over and over I just wanted to get it cleaned up already. and I said okay okay, I got it and now I want to get it cleaned up I dont want to look at it any longer. He got upset with me, and said he was getting all his feelings out, what is he suposed to do bottle it all up and stuff it down inside just because I dont want to hear anymore of it. I said well I am really getting tired of looking at it and talking about it, I have listend to your feelings we discussed and agreed on solutions now I just want to take care of what needs to be done, I dont want to go on and on about it. He then said I was controlling the conversation telling him I had to be in control saying how long he can speak and I am only thinking about myself. I said I dont feel I am trying to control the conversation, we discussed it all and I am getting tired of hearing about it all already. You feel I am controlling, what about you, you want me to have to listen to you go on and on about this getting me upset so you dont have to have this stuff bottled up? so you feel your feelings are more important then mine?
I then decided to just clean and listen to him go on and on and on... about it.
I realize this sounds so stupid but I dont know whats right here. Am I suposed to have to listen to him go on and on about stuff. he will go on for hours! I am not kidding, we used to get into arguments that lasted literally 7 to 12 hours long! even if I try ignoring him he would just keep going as long as he could make me listen to him, so I guess this is a great improvement over then... So am I being controlling or wrong to not want to listen to him go on about things so long? or is that what I have to do to be suportive? or is that just whats expected and I am being rude by not wanting to hear it over and over?
I think I'd be feeling somewhat abused, disrespected, and belittled if I were you right now. I hope that writing helped and that at the very least you get an apology in the morning.
My H & I have had those encounters that went on for days. Ours have only happened recently and were always related to his EA. With us the roles were reversed and I was the one who wouldn't let things drop because I didn't feel like my H was understanding how I felt. He was hearing my words but they had no impact.
I don't know about your H, but tension used to go on and on with my H for days when I would be upset because he is a master at what our counsellor calls "passive resistance. I call it "ducking and dodging," "sweeping it under the rug, etc." He would "agree" and expect me to leave it alone and move on when there has not been any real discussion, resolution, or empathy for my feelings.
Obviously, in your case, we don't know if your H is being abusive (clearly he's going overboard fussing for hours and expecting you to just sit and take it - is he using you as a scapegoat when things don't go well at work - is he drinking- is he moody)or if he is legitimately feeling that he is not getting through (whether you are being passively resistant - by the way my H would appear to "agree" with what I said but I could tell it was with all the sincerity of the kitchen doormat). From counselling I learned not to unload on him, but I'd withdraw until he would begin to discuss whatever was upsetting to me IN GOOD FAITH. This was not good either, but it was something my counsellor suggested and though terribly time consuming, it sort of worked. Generally, though I'd never get his attention until after I got really angry and then withdrew.
A messy house does seem to really be upsetting to your H. Some of us are truly anal about that - I know because I am one of them. Through the years, my H has gone from living in utter chaos (His apartment was unlike anything I have ever seen before or since) to being reasonably neat at home in consideration for me. I am someone who is totally miserable and unable to function without organization. Also, a nice house seems to be the gratification I need for my work outside the home. I don't know if that is a woman thing or if some men need that, too. My children and husband have finally come to understand that Mom will always have this pet neurosis. As they get older they actually seem to appreciate it.
I think that your H's remarks to your children were WAY WAY OUT OF LINE. That is something the two of you need to deal with. He is carrying around a load of bitterness for some reason. I do hope he is not trying to justify leaving again. You must feel like you are living in mine field where it is just impossible to relax. It sounds like the clean up situation would be pretty easy to handle with something like a 1 hour pickup time just before Dad gets home, but his unloading on you makes it sound like kid clutter may not be the real problem. Why is it so hard for the working spouse to respect the work at home spouse? I don't think I could make it at home unless my H were at home too. We work together, and he doesn't second guess me there. I know that I couldn't handle having him coming home and critique how I'd spent my day. I also know I'd have a hard time staying motivated to keep house with 3 little children. Many years ago I did it for a brief period in summers. I found that I had to set aside half of my day for the menial stuff that I hated like housework and errands. The rest of the time I was generally busy with the kids and doing things that I felt I needed or WANTED to do but that might not impress my H much. I still find that I have to resort to that when I have time off because time has a way of getting away from me.
I understand that your H has expectations for some benefits of taking on all the responsibility of being the "breadwinner" and some interest in how reasonably neat and clean the house is in that he lives there too, but to me there seems to be a really tricky balance in asking for a reasonably kept house, good full time mothering, and showing respect and appreciation for everything that is involved in your day. Many years ago, an older aquaintance of mine who was a stay at home mother once laughed about how she always had her kids scrubbed and the house straightened just before her H walked in because she knew "where their bread was buttered." It struck me wrong at the time, but they seem to have had a really good marriage.
I expect that you can deal with the kid clutter and show H that you have dealt with it so that he can now look forward to coming home to peace... I also hope that later you will be able to take up your VALID concerns about the way he went so overboard at you with his anger. If he doesn't want a child for a wife, he should not treat you like one. Scratch that, he shouldn't go overboard like that with a child either. Keep your chin up, and I hope things go well in the days ahead.
Sue, You are right. There is no sense spending hours discussing a child made mess. It just isn't that important. If that had been me, I would have stopped cleaning up the mess, got in my car, and driven off somewhere for a few hours.
I've been pretty much thinking the same thing as Theresa.
When I wrote my last post I thought. Hmmm I think I've said this before at some time. Probably a couple months ago right?
As long as your H keeps with the drinking. You're just going to keep spinning your wheels. The cycle.
If you have to monitor someone's behavior 24 hours a day that seems to be more of a warden type relationship than a W.
I'm one of those passive resisters like Wesse described so I see where she's coming from. But the drinking may escalate a conflict that may have lasted an hour into 6-12 hours.
THANK YOU ALL OF YOU Okay so was that all of your unbiased oppinions? because I am not out to just be told I am right, I want to handle things right. I was thinking of all you said Wesse, and perhaps my H felt like your H was making you feel. He needed to feel heard. I thought I did good on the active listening and discussing solutions etc. But he seems to have a "need" to be heard going on and on. My counselor pointed out a that my H seems to think all his wants are his needs. So I think in this situation we need to some how come to an agreement or compromise so he can feel heard and I dont have to feel frustrated listening to the lengthy complaining. Or, does it mean I dont care because I dont want to hear it for so long??? hmmmm.
Yes Rich, I know, thats why I have such a hard time staying off the focuss of his drinking because I know how it indirectly affects so much. It changes him even when he is sober. He is not certain kind of drunk, like many are mean or lovable or happy or sad, he is what ever his mood is and extremely exagerated. however once he starts putting it into his system it affects his brain and thinking for quite some time. Its not the same as a healthy person who is just altered when they are inebriated.
Rayanne, I would love to just leave but it wasnt like he was mad at me, he was very frustrated with our kids conduct and behavior. He was telling me this morning that he felt our kids are going to play a major factor in ruining our marriage and causing us to get a divorce. Okay that just really annoyed me big time! but I kept my mouth shut because I didnt want to argue, but I personally feel thats just shifting the blame!!! taking the focus off of his own actions that are a major factor in causeing us problems.
This is what happend today. I think I messed up. We were laying together hugging and cuddling on the couch and listening to music while the kids were playing in the back yard. So it was nice and peaceful and just quite an enjoyable time. He then told me he loved me. and I said I love you too. He said you do love me? I said yes. He said are you in love with me? (grrrr) I said yes. He said how do you know? I went BLANK!!! I said I dont know. (great answer) He said well how do you know you love me? I said I dont know what to tell you I dont know how to explain that. He said you just open your heart and speak of whats inside. GREAT!!! I started thinking up ways of how people know they are in love with each other to say those things, but I had to keep stopping myself because they clearly didnt fit. I said I just dont know how. He said okay then go ahead and give me your logical answer I know you have that in there. I said okay well Love is a choice, I choose to love you and I show that by all I do for you in fullfilling your needs and taking care of you. He said oh (not very enthusiastically) well whats in your heart? (grrrrr) well to end this maddening talk it turned into a ticklefest and then he said he had to go to the hardware store. So shoot I dont know what to do or say at this point. I dont want to go back to the love/in love BS conversations! sorry I know that sounds cold but I had months of that and I dont want to go back to the constant "do you love me yet" questions and all that pressure. I just always say I love you too. and since I found out it means so much to him to hear it from me with out him having to say it first I having been saying it on my own. Now I am feeling kinda of stuck and trapped! Like dug myself into a hole.
I read Helens post today on my Detaching with love vs controlling thread. Oh my Gosh, dont even know what to say, I understand her and I am just starting to feel at such a loss now, I have been posting away for months and now I just feel like a very confused newcommer in away. There is so much I know and have learned but my feelings are so seperate.
okay done rambling! thanks again, Wesse, Rayanne, and Rich.
He just asked me a while ago if things were good with us. I said well... he said they are right? I said I guess. he said "you guess"???
a friend came over tonight and asked how we were doing and he said we were doing good we just have kid issues. He said arent we doing good? I said well you have been drinking like a fish out of water every night. He said yeah but our issues us arent we doing good? My jaw dropped! What planet is he living on? okay man I guess its not his fault its mine. I havent complained about anything, and have been doing all this active listening and suporting, and comming here to vent so of course he thinks everything is great I guess. He so quickly forgets his blow ups but cant let go of mine if I have them... so since I havent blown up he assumes things are good I guess.
well... we had a looong talk last night. He told me I dont fullfill his emotional needs and he has this huge void in his heart. He knows he loves me with all his heart and soul and for some reason I refuse to fill his emotional needs even though he tells me what it is he needs. grrrrr. I said I dont know what it is you want because everything you have talked to me about I have worked so hard to change and do what you ask and there is always something new. what do you want from me? he said well what are all these changes you have made for me? so I ran down the list, and he said right, right, right.... okay well what he wants from me is what everyone else gets from me. I explained I do give it to you you dont like it. I have learned you dont like the way I naturally help and suport others and am really trying to learn how it is you like to be suported and heard and trying to do that for you, its new to me and quite unatural but I am trying very hard to. I explained the active listening with him compared to organizing thoughts and helping work through one prob at a time. He did say he dosnt want advice or solutions.
He said well what about the words of affirmation, why wont you give me the words. (grrrr) I said I do comment on the good things you do ALOT! I make a point of it. He pointed out the example of earlier when he asked me to tell him whats in my heart for him (yikes) So I explained my feelings about that. I said I have come from a long way down this path, from straight hating you, to being able tolerate you, to likeing you, to loving you and wanting to try on this marriage, and now I feel a bit pressured to come up with an explaination of feelings I just dont quite have yet and I presume its going to take time. He said so you dont love me? I said I know I love and care about you. There is so many great qualities you have that I love and make me want to work things out, you can be so loving and understanding and empathetic... but then you can turn around and snatch it all away. I take a chance and peak out of my hole and open up, feel comfortable with you then you slam me down and I run back in my hole wanting out of this marriage desperatley. I cant stand the extremes, the instablity the unpredictablity. He said well thats normal in a marriage there are ups and downs I cant be perfect all the time I can have stressful times that I just cant be perfect. I said its not a matter of being perfect its the extremes. Yes, its normal for there to be ups and downs, but I dont think the downs should be so extreme that you want a divorce. Disagreements yes are normal but they shouldnt be disrespectful and hurtful. He said well I have tried really hard and things are definitly not like they were. I said things were EXTREMELY BAD before and now they are not as bad, yet still not acceptable. Emotional and verbal abuse is not okay. He said I am always doing something, before I was physicaly and sexually abusing you and now I am emotionally and verbally abusing you... I said well yes as a matter of fact you were and it was quite serious, what do you think you were doing to me? He said you are right I know what I did was terrible and I have a lot of problems dealing with that I am so sorry for all I did to you but thats all dead in the water now, I feel like you still look at me and think of me as that same person. I said I dont.
He said he wants whats in my heart, he wants to have heart to hearts with me but I wont. I said I open up to you and take chances, each time I do I impressed with your reactions and all your wonderful attributes, except then later you use my emotional vulneralbities against me to hurt me and you stop being the person you were. It makes it very dificult for me to open up with whats in side.
He asked why I refuse to reasure him. I said what do you mean. He said I hurt him and he lives in terror and fear that all he loves will be gone, and be a lie. I need to know you wont do again what you did before. I said I have learned from what happend and I dont want to inadvertanly end up there again. He said thank you very much it means a lot to me to hear that. (okay I have said that lots of time and he is acting as if this is the first time) He asked what was so hard about telling me that and taking responsibilty for yourself? I said I dont want to hear I am a liar and pretending to be something I am not... He said I get it, I have always called you a liar and questioned your words, well I have healed enough to not do that anymore, so you dont need to be afraid that that will be my response.
He then asked if I loved him and want to be with him or not. I said I love and care about you, but I cant live the way things are. He said you are talking in double talk, just pick one of two lines: you love me and want to be with me or you love but dont want to be with me. I said its not that simple! I love you but I dont want to be with you the way things are, things have to change. He said why do you have to go in three diferent directions why cant you just pick one of the two lines? I said okay then I love you and dont want to be with you. we both talked about divorce. I said he is under a HUGE amount of stress.
I said well since its so stressful for you to be here with all the home stress along with all the work stress, why dont you move out get your own place and work on yourself at least take this stress out of your life and spend some time working on you and looking within. He said is that what you want? I said well yes if it will help you. He said well is that what you want, for me to move out? I reiterated I wanted him to work on him.
I dont really know where we are now, if we are getting a divorce or not? we talked about it, I explained I cant live like this and I wont put up with HIS drinking. He defended his drinking with he didnt know what else to do and he isnt drinking that much. He is soooo full of it because he gets VERY drunk, just this morning I woke up to our bathroom flooded because he turned the shower head on and left on and dangling and it sprayed out all over the bathroom for who knows how long. I couldnt understand a word he said when he came to bed either. He told me I am willing to fulfill him every other way but verbally.
What am I suposed to do? lie and say there are things in my heart that are not? he said well why do you keep saying you love me? I said well I do love you, and I want you to feel loved and secure and the more good moments we have the more love should grow. I dont want to go back to all the pressure of do you love me yet questions. He said I havent done that to you in months. I said I know and I dont want to go back to it either. he said well "I cant be all you want me to be, and you cant be all I need you to be. I do want to be all you want me to be" I told him I have tried desperatley to be all you have asked for and I just cant seem to get it right for some reason because you keep telling me I am not fulfilling your emotional needs and I have tried to do all you have asked, I am at a loss...
okay well poured out here. thanks for listening. Suz
[This message has been edited by Sue (edited 01-10-2000).]
Don't react or digest anything that happened over the weekend yet. Let your H have sometime to figure it all out for himself. He will need sometime for him. You did a good job of explaining clearly that something had to change. Your H will have to accept that first and secondly figure out what will work for him.
Sue, if you can, try to relax a bit and not think about your relationship.. For now your H is going to have to think about working on himself.
things just got uglier. I will write about it tomorrow. He just finished accusing me of having someone else and he knows it and I am not fooling him. then he ripped all the cables out of my computer.
I will explain more later... right now we are going to lunch... go figure!
)