This is a heated thread, for sure. I hope a lot of learning has gone on here. Rather than comment on slone v. sue interaction, I want to say something to you,Sue. One thing I learned a long time ago, don't use logic with a person who is being illogical. It's like trying to speak French to someone who only speaks Spanish. It's a waste of time and it's frustrating. Even if you speak louder, they won't understand.
If you are talking to your husband and he acts like he's not hearing, not agreeing, not even understanding, stop talking. He understands, even if he doesn't agree. He hears, even if he acts deaf. Admitting he understands or agrees is like admitting defeat to him because he's insecure. Quit talking.
I know there are times where he is relentless. You need to do the best you can to escape his grip. Get away from him. Unless you can do this, you shouldn't remain in your marriage. And that's from the divorce buster.
But that's not why I'm writing. I'm writing because I know how important understanding and communication is to you. Well, my friend, there are times with that husband of yours, you are just not going to get that. So stop trying. If things are better, that's great. But there are certain situations that, no matter how you say something, he just won't get it. So quit trying.
Hope you understand what I mean here and know I know how hard you've been working on yourself and your marriage. I admire you for your effort and for standing your ground with your husband. Just don't let him take your soul.
Sue, It has taken me more that a year in recovery to learn some of what Michelle posted. My H & I have spent countless hours arguing about his feelings and reactions after his EA. He would get so argumentative and was a master at sending our conversations off on tangents. He spent 99% of his energy ducking and dodging real communication. The harder I pushed, the more he'd nit pick on syntax. We are both lawyers, so it was totally illogical for him to think I wouldn't see through his shenanigans with syntax. Nevertheless, logic failed me miserably.
Now that we are further into recover and the pressure is off of both of , it is amazing how much better I am at receiving his thoughts and recollections about his EA and how much less evasive and "less illogical" he is.
My H is an extremely bright man, but, during the months after his EA involuntarily ended, you would have thought that he did not have enough common sense to come in out of a rain.
As long as he was emotionally defending himself, he was totally illogical & my attempts at reasoning just aggravated the tension between us when any mention let alone discussion of the EA came up. His evasiveness together with all the other emotional trauma nearly drove me nuts.
Good luck with being the strong one who just backs off when H gets noncommunicative by being argumentative. I'd love to see what Michelle would say about how you address your need for honest and open communication under these circumstances. I, too have that communication need near the top of my needs list! My H has great difficulty meeting it because being open just doesn't come easily to him.
Wesse, One quick thought. Here's what i have to say about open communication. Like I write in all of my books, become a solution detective. No matter how illogical or uncommunicative your husband is, there are times when he is more so, figure out what accounts for the difference. Also, once you truly accept the fact that some of your talks are going to be less than satisfactory, you will find that the better ones happen more and more.
If not, try notes, phonecalls and email messages.
Just a thought. and one more thing. If he's willing, there are great courses to learn how to communicate better. Go to one together. Michele
thank you thank you thank you!!! Michele, I must print that out and put on every wall in my house as a reminder! you have said something to me about that before when I was feeling so frustrated over my H saying I was lieing about the EA being a PA and the battle went on for over a year! its true I knew it wasnt and there was no convincing him of the truth so quit trying to convince him!
I guess I am just so caught up in trying to work things out because I really want out so bad sometimes but I remind myself we can work together and make things good if we try and I just feel it my responsibility to try being we have children. Knowing when to quit has always been a problem for me so there is a behavior for me to work on!!! accept what I can not change! learn the wisdom to know what I cant!
okay so here is how I handled my H yesterday. I cleaned the house all day and just really didnt talk to him unless I had to. I put him in charge of the kids when he finally got out of bed!!!! I my 7 yo really wanted to help me clean so I gave her jobs while we worked and talked together it was fun and ofcourse we took breaks to make and color little paper kites and play barbies. I was not going to stop to do those things but she wanted to so bad and my mom never played with me at all so I thought whats a few minutes here and there. It worked in fine and meant the world to her, and me too.
so last night I decided to check in and I read Micheles post. I was reading it for the 3rd time when my H walked in and said "Iknow I messed up really really bad last night. I am sorry and I didnt know what to do today, I thought you wouldnt wnat to even look at me so I tried to not bother you and I made a nice dinner for everyone"
okay I was thinking all about how in the world I was going to pull the 180 and react the way he usually reacts when I apologize for somehting. I had been thinking about everyhting all day. I was going over in my mind all the advice I have heard from everyone here and trying to figure out how was going to handle things that would get the best results. I thought about what Michele said in the above quote how things are interpreted have a lot to do with how you are feeling. I thought a lot about the exchanges between slone and I and what I stated I learned from that as far as how my H feels. My heart told me not to react like him it just wasnt right, I cant kick someone when they are down even if its to give a taste of their own medicine. ( It worked for me before when I was at a loss in how to handle his tantrums. he used to acidently spill a plate of food when walking with it then get so mad and yell and cures and feel sorry for himself and walk out leaving the mess for me to clean, it infuriated me and there was no talking to him. So I decided to do the same thing one day. OH was he steamed and really gave me a lecture. The next time he did the same thing I repeated his own lecture to him. and it worked! he recongnized his own words! so I thought this time since he refuses to give me the way to say things to him I would make him give them to me the same way I did last time.)
But after thinking through things all day I decided to handle it diferently. I decided I would NOT becareful to use the "I feel" rather then "you". so I said you hurt me alot, you put me through something I didnt deserve and now you are saying you are sorry and you feel terrible and you are feeling horrible for your failure and for hurting me. So should I now react the way you have to me, should I let your apology fall on deaf ears and go on and on about how you hurt me and how you screwed up. would it solve problems if I start to yell at you now the way you do to me when I am in your place? He said I am really sorry I really messed up bad and I dont know what to do I dont know why I am messing up so bad I dont know ..... I said do you know today I was going to react to you the way you usually do to me I was going to put you through what you put me through so you could learn to stop doing that. But I know what its like to be where you are, I know what it feels like to feel so down and frustrated with your self and to have the person you let down really let you have it. It dosnt help it dosnt fix anything hurting someone who is already feeling miserable will only make them defensive and not hear what you are saying even if its meant to help. I said you twist the things I say doubt my words and feelings and refuse to believe my explainations when I just try to make you understand me. so I am going to let you read my thread so you can see what my thoughts and feelings are and know I am not trying to minipulate you with my words. we read through it together, I know it was hurtful for him to read but I think he could see where I am comming from and I am being honest with him with my feelings.
I read Micheles post out loud to him and at the end where she said dont let him take your soul. I paused on that and said you know, I wonder if I should just stop trying to work things out with you or if I am just losing myself on something hopeless. he said I dont know, I really dont know, I dont know whats wrong with me I dont know why I am screwing up, I know where we are at is because of me I see things going back to where they used to be and I dont want that and I know everything was my fault.
I watched my tone, it wasnt hard I wasnt feeling defensive or mad.
I think it went well there was no fighting no yelling just very calm talking and mostly by me and him listening.
then last night he came to bed really late and he was drunk again but didnt say anything but I love you. I didnt take his drinking last night personally Iknow he is in a lot of pain and I know that he is trying to numb it the WRONG way however thats HIS problem to deal with. I dont know what I am going to do or more like say to him now because he is breaking boundary rules of no drinking at home. He is trying to get away with it by doing it when I am asleep.
Wesse, thank you for words! sorry I have ran out of time I have to get the kids up now for school. then I will be back in full gear to finish taking my house back!
Michele thank you so much!!!! one of my problems is I lack the self confidance in myself to truly know when he is being ilogical, I mean it sounds it to me but then I dont feel certain until my counselor says its completely ilogical what he is saying and I cant win because he has it all mapped out.
I do not have any experience in drinking problems and do not feel comfortable offering any advise.
Michele has given you some great thoughts and hopefully provided you with some focus.
What I do see is that possibly for the first time in a while you have managed to take charge of the relationship or at least take responsibility for it. Your H may realize now that there are consequences if he treats you badly.
Sue I need a bit of time to think about all I have read on your thread. My first impression if that maybe this is what had to happen before your H started to change himself rather than try to change you.
Sue you handled things very well.
Chris
[This message has been edited by ChrisJ (edited 12-13-1999).]
chris thanks and I am looking forward to hear your thoughts. great news, John V replied to my Detaching with love vs controlling thread, he was the alcoholic H. hopefully he will have some time to help with insights on mysituation from the other side just like Ihave given insights in the mind of a WAW.
here is what Theressa sent me in response to Micheles post. I sent it to her becuase I thought it would apply to her as well.
__________________________________________________________________ Michele's reply is very helpful, thanks for sharing it with me. Michele was spot on, I hope you heard what she said and will take it on board, I definitely will. This is what walking away is about.
I agree there are times when my husband is also relentless, What did Michele mean about escaping his grip? Any idea? > I think I agree with Michele when she says that both myself and you may not always get understanding or communications. What's the alternative, I guess I don't know, maybe Michele could answer this one, how can you have open honest communication under these circumstances? How can you sort things out without communicating and understanding? What I would like to say here is to retiterate something that Covenant said to me (Do you remember covenant, he used to EA his wife) He said "You are only responsible for what you do, you can't contol the outcome of what others do or how they react and vice versa. He said sometimes action speak louder than words. You need to not listen and get out of the house when someone is acting irrational and not listening to you and yes stop talking.
I would stop talking about your marriage for a while with your husband.
Here's another suggestion that Dr Harley gives, you can write your spouse a letter with the following contents however, you need to be ready to do this, it means following through if things aren't favourable,
Here goes:
"Listen, do you love me? Do you care at all about how I feel? If you do you sure have a funny way of showing it! I love you and want to spend the rest of my life with you. But it sure will be unpleasant for both of us if you keep treating me this way. You are not doing things I admire, you're doing things that I find disgusting!"
If he says "fine lets separate and end it all"
Say: "Its up to you. I wanted to be with you for life, but if you want to end it all, its your call. If you want to be in a loving relationship with me, however, you're going to have to treat me much better than you have been treating me. From this moment on you will never try to force me to do anything I do not want to, you will give me your viewpoint and let me decide if I agree but he choice has to be mine. If you are upset with me, you will have to treat me with respect until we can solve the problem by talking about it and coming to an agreement which we both agree which is best for us both. I will agree to do the same with you. I refuse to be treated this way even by a man I love."
Coveant said he agrees with the above suggestion, he also said leaving is sometimes all one can do. I find it hard to contemplate right now, actually getting up myself and leaving, I haven't ruled it out though. I am being told many times how lucky I am to have him, (This is his opinion) Then he is leaving, then he wants me to leave, I respond by saying, If you feel you want to leave, I cannot force you to stay, its up to you." (I told him the other day "I will not do xxxx for you if you speak to me that way". and I have also said "I will not listen to you if you speak to me this way".
I think for now, I would not mention problems I would just concentrate on being polite and respectful but not bring up any problems for a short while and see how things go. I think sometimes if we keep at things we become too emotional and taking a break can help.
I hope this helps. I will write about me soon. Theressa _________________________________________________________________ I am gong to give our conversation time to sink in before I attempt to talk to him further on our issues he usually takes a few days.
Okay, yes I am taking a break from my house work for a moment, sheesh I havent even gotten to house work yet, its hard to not "clean" thats one of my probs right there, anything that needs cleaning I clean it and it takes no time for things to need to be cleaned again! so everyone is just going to have to live with dirty floors until I finish organizing things then I will "clean".
so heres what happend. I messed up but I learned some things I think. 1 stick to original plans! this morning when H woke up he said can you take 5 mins to spend some time with me, I said sure. He said okay how about a quickie? I said I really dont feel like having sex right now. he kept trying to talk me into it saying only five mins. so I said I told you I do not feel like it and started to leave. he said you gave time to that pointing at my computer but you cant give 5 mins to the man who loves you. I said I gave time to myself yes, and I am willing to give you the time you ask for however I just do not want to have sex and I started to walk out. he got mad. I went about working on my house projects and bathed my Munchie then went down stairs to make her lunch and went back to sorting all the clothes.
He came to me and said I would like to talk to you do you have time. I said sure. I went to sit with him and have a talk. I guess I should have realized he meant he wanted to talk at me not with me!!!
He said you know I wanted five minutes of your time and you wouldnt give me that. How are we suposed to move foward and backwards at the same time? you say you want to work on things and move forward yet you bring up the past and all my faults. I said you asked me for sex and I didnt want to. he said you stated that so I dropped it and just wanted to spend 5 minutes with you. I said you didnt say that I told you I would spend the time with you but not have sex and you pressed on for please just a quickie I really want you. He says he decided to just spend time with me because he wanted to talk to me. I said well I wish you would have told me that. He said well you kept saying you didnt want to have sex and then left. I said well usually when you get mad that I say no you say fine get out then. He said why do you have to throw the past at me and my faults and whats wrong with me. I said I am not doing that, I am stating you didnt tell me that you decided to let go of the sex issue and that you just wanted to talk to me I offerd that early in our conversation and I never knew you changed your mind to agree to that. I think that was a miscomunication problem again. I cant know what you are thinking and I need for you to tell me and express with a little more words as to what you are talking about rahter then assume I know. He said well if you dont know what I am talking about why dont you ask then? (you see same miscomunication problem as the other night when running errands and talking about Theressas email) I said I really think we need to be more explanatory with each other to avoid this. He said you just need to quit telling me my faults and what I need to change! you could tell he was really angry. I am quite proud of my self I didnt get stirred up at all and felt focussed and calm inside. I tried to just realy hear what he was saying rather then get caught up in his tones and anger. I said you know what, this is just like what Michele was talking about in how you are feeling making a diference in how you interpret things. I think you are upset right now about how you feeling about your failures and therefore feel I am throwing the past at you. He said hell ya I am upset I am really upset and I have the right to be. I try to make a change and you bring up the past. I said I am sorry you felt thats what I was doing, I was using the example as to why I didnt realize you changed your mind and decided to change. I didnt know that this morning you woke up and decided to make a change. up until today its been the same thing for 14 years, so it will help me to know when you decide to make changes. remember when you used to tell me negatively "where did you get that from" when I would tell you what my personal thoughts were, becuase you didnt think I could think up my own oppinion and then later after some months of working on yourself we were talking about something that was troubling you and I talked to you about some personal thoughts I had. You were very touched by it and it helped you a lot and you said "where did you get that from" it hurt my feelings because I opened up to you something from deep inside me and I felt you were having the same negative remark becasuse it was the same words, however you meant something diferent by those words you meant since I was reading so much and realy working hard on myself you wondered if I read it somewhere because they were such great words. It was then I realized you were making changes I wasnt aware of and needed to learn to here certain phrases you used to say and know you now have a diferent meaning to them. I think it was something similar to that that happend this morning. I can see where we both can make changes to help us not have these blocks. right now we have to learn each others thought process and new ways of thinking compared to what we were used to before, we knew eachother so well it was simple to comunicate with few words and finish each others sentences but now we are both really changing and trying to grow and we both have diferent ways about us now and we need to get to know them. He was too mad to hear me. got angry and yelled at me. I said listen I am talking nicley to you and really trying to find solutions here for us and I feel I see somehting that can help us. obviously you didnt learn a darn thing yesterday and I should have just really let you have it and I still could being what you did last night. he said what did I do last night I didnt even talk to you. I said you were drunk, he insist he was not "drunk" (we have diferent interpretations, he considers falling down drunk to be drunk, I feel you can be drunk before you reach the point you cant walk) I said well you did talk to me a little and no you were rude it was the fact that you are breaking boundaries about not drinking at home. He said I didnt drink in the house I drank outside. (theres a technicality for you!) I said I still had to smell you and see you that way and it dosnt feel good for me. He said oh so now you are getting into my business. I said no, your drinking is your issue. I feel you are really hurting right now and are numbing your pain the old way because you dont know what to do and I feel for you. Its up to you to deal with your feelings and figure out what to do about them. right now I feel you are too emotional for us to really have a constructive solution oriented talk so how about we talk later when you feel you have cooled down, because I am not upset right now and I feel it would be better for both of us if we could talk while neither of us is upset. He got mad and yelled at me for not listening and being too busy solving problems and diagnosing to let him talk about what he feels. I said I am sorry I thought you wanted to have a talk I took that to mean us exchanging ideas and talking about solutions for things. I accepted that I need to change the way I talk with you I realize now I cant use examples to explain things to you I need to find another way to comunicate then. I didnt realize you what you wanted was to get all your feelings out and for me to just listen. So I guess I did a bad job at doing active listening! I didnt recognize that thats what he was after. As soon as he said he was upset I should have realized thats really what he was after.
I had already decided I wasnt going to talk about our relationship with him for a few days but I thought he intiated a discussion about it I should have stuck to my original plan. I think right now he is feeling emotionally upset not just with me but himself with feeling so let down by himself. He needs to be heard so tonight I am sure he will want to talk and you can bet I will be activly listening.
What I have noticed though is when I am not a mess inside he cant handle it, when I am strong and in control of my emotions and focused he is angry with me. When I am a wreck he seems to be at peace. I have always said to him it takes my misery to make him happy. It always seemed he wanted a sacrafice from me to show my love for him to prove he is more important, even if it meant hurting me. I really do think there is something to him needing to break me down to come to my rescue. I think I need to show him I can need him in other ways.
okay wow I have taken too much time out I got to still do one more kid room, the play room and the rest of the laundry, to finish my todays house attack goals.
I have been really thinking about Zyg talking to me about "balance" and slone talking about getting my priorities in line. I do have to get my home organized again so I can think clearly. I know when the house is in disaray so is my mind, thats what slone meant by the purse and the home. so once I get back on track there I should be better able to figure things out!
I think I have been so caught up in working so hard on problems with my H because I was wanting out and I felt like either I fix things and stay or I tried and the answer is to get out, and I am so eager for the answer whether it be stay or go that I put too much time and energy into and threw my life out of balance.
Please get that book! If for no other reason than you can ask your H to read so that perhaps he understands both you and himself better.
When you are in control and calm it makes him angry? No! He makes himself angry.
Why does your being in control stir up negative emotions in your H. Maybe because he feels like he is not in control, insecure and powerless.
When he wants to talk about his feelings does he or does he want to manipulate YOUR behaviors by saying it makes him feel so and so way.
There is a big differnece between I am mad because you do not want to have sex with me AND I am frustrated because I treat your not wanting to have sex now as a personel rejection.
Sue, When you are listening to him try not to get manipulated into reacting to his feelings. You can certainly say that accept that he feels that way, you can empathize with him. But don't try to solve him.
One of John's Gray's lines went something like...
When a man wants to talk he has a vested interest in being right
Sue, by staying clam and collected and not engaging you will find more clarity and solutions. If you find your H getting angry then diffuse as best you can and if the talk seems to hostile postpone it to another scheduled time. Then reassure him that this is not a personel rejection of him it is a way to have a more meaningful talk.
Something that I have been thinking about for the last little while about affecting change in relationship is that it is not as important how we think, what we say and how we act, its how this is percieved by your partner that is important.
How does your H interpret your calmness when he is obviously upset...????
Something to think about while you are cleaning the toilet .
Chris
[This message has been edited by ChrisJ (edited 12-13-1999).]
Sue, I know this is a "hot" subject, but i think that when men want to have sex, it often has alot more to do with wanting to feel connected to their partners than women give them credit for. Women tend to think that men simply have an itch that needs to be scratched. I think your husband was wanting to feel close to you, especially after what happened. When you said, "No," and I understand why you didn't feel like it, I'm sure he felt hurt and rejected. Often, men don't do hurt very well, they do mad. So I think the mad you got was really hurt feelings. And I am convinced if you were to ask him, he might deny it. He might not even be aware of it himself,who knows.
So you can say to yourself, "that's too bad, he hurts me so I'm not in the mood. Why should I care about his feelings?" Or, if you understand why he wants to do a quickie, instead of just saying no and walking out, maybe you could be a bit more creative. Could you please him, even if you weren't in the mood?
I know that your history around sex is complex and that it's difficult for you to leave the past in the past. I completely understand that. But if you had no excess baggage from the past, I wonder if you would be more willing to think about why he's wanting a quickie rather than feeling the instant need to vanish when you're not exactly in the mood.
Anyway, one more thought. I would love for you to get more of your emotional needs met from activites that took you out of your home and into the world. How much time to your spend away from home? You seem to spend lots of time, maybe too much time, worrying about, thinking about your marriage. There's a big world out there, have you stuck your head out recently and taken a peak?
I hope so, Sue, Michele
[This message has been edited by Michele (edited 12-13-1999).]
"When he wants to talk about his feelings does he or does he want to manipulate YOUR behaviors by saying it makes him feel so and so way."
Well, I am begining to believe it is about getting me change my behavior because he gets really upset with me if I dont change a behavior after I know how he feels. For him he wants to be heard yes, but its also about getting me to change what I am doing.
"Something that I have been thinking about for the last little while about affecting change in relationship is that it is not as important how we think, what we say and how we act, its how this is percieved by your partner that is important."
I tried to explain that one to him over a year ago, he didnt get what I was saying. so for the heck of it, I said it to someone else and they got it the first time I said it. this is why I explain my position and thought process, its not about making excuses its about being understood. If I can understand the way another thinks I have an easy time comunicating with them. It was great when I was a dept manager. When I was an assistant I drive my boss crazy with all the questions rather then just accepting the answers, I wanted to know how she worked the equations in her head, then I was able to do the same and be on my own. I also explain how I come to the conclusions I do so someone can point out to me why thats not right if its not.
"How does your H interpret your calmness when he is obviously upset...????"
I think he interprets it as me being cold and uncaring. He has commented on that, and says I am like a lawyer in court, and I am here with all my wisdom. here is an ex. that is not during a conversation but in other areas he gets upset when I am calm. The kids had spilled some milk in the family room, we didnt know about if for a few days when we started to smell it. My H was very upset by the smell in our home and was ranting and raving and trying to find it. I was calm and looked around and then when I found the spot I just started cleaning it the best I could with the machine etc. I was calm while I was looking and taking care of it and didnt say much. So he started yelling at me, dont you care! dont you care there is an awful smell in our home. I said yes I do care but I am not going to scream about it it wont help me find it or take care of it and I dont need to feel worse then I already do having to smell it. He works himself up over things and gets very upset that I dont, he hates my calmness, if I am not upset I dont care, but thats not true, I just dont see how that helps. Some times I begin to get frazzled when he goes at me for a while because he escalates himself as he goes. He will start out talking calm and I respond calm and rather then dropping it he keeps going, just like not accepting apologies.
.