GH, I just want to let you know that I feel for you. I know it's so hard to think that the worst is over and then feel like you're going through it all over again.
Take care, buddy.
The LORD is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth." (Psalm 145:18)
OT, thank you as well. I KNOW I'll be ok, that's just it. I can't figure out what I want to be honest about because I don't even know what I know. Know what I mean? If I go off "expressing myself about something that isn't even "true" or something that she is just going to lie about, then what? Where are we then? Ok, she knows how I feel, but she also knows I still obsess over this stuff. I suppose her knowing that is "honest" and me holding back that info is "dishonest" but, well, just but...
I did approach her again tonight. I just walked up to her and said...
M: I want to ask you again if you wanted to talk. You said we had things to talk about." W: No. I was just having an anxiety moment. I'm ok now. M: Ok, but do you think it might be good to see someone about that? I know you wanted to awhile ago. W: No, I don't want any medication or anything. I'll be ok. M: It just hurts me to see you like this. I understand you are under a lot of stress. I just want you to know that this is hard for me too because I don't know everything. I know that our situation is stressful but I don't know what else is bothering you. Specifically, I don't know if OM is still an issue. It bothers me to think it is but I hope you'd tell me. W: No. I can't even leave the house so... (I don't know what that has to do with it but...) M: Ok. I just want to make sure that you know I am ready to listen when you want to talk, and I want to be able to talk to you too. W: Ok. Like I said, I'm fine.
Ok, so she's fine. I'm fine, we're all "fine". Great. So do we just exist "fine" forever?
I WILL talk to her, and before it's too late. I don't know what I will say, and for me, that will BE the emotional risk because I will just take the leap, not knowing what I want to say, how she'll react, or what will happen afterward. I wish I could say that will be 5 minutes from now, but I can't. I don't know when I will be ready, but I do know that I can't wait anymore for the "right" moment. There IS NO right moment, which is why I haven't found one yet.
I thought all the parts before this one were the hardest. I was wrong. THIS is the hardest, not the worst, but the hardest because it was easy to think of all that has come before as things that "happened" to me and thus at least BEGIN to deal with them as a victim even if I finally figured out that I was not. THIS thing is something I have to own 100% and take the ultimate risk to do. That is REAL difficulty.
GH, hugs to you for a hard weekend. I react the same to the "shutting down" mode, b/c H does the same. I panic b/c to me it means "he's running away and to someone else" and being in the dark about someone's feelings is hard. Every so often we have a really candid conversation, but it takes H a while, since I used to react so poorly....safety is a big issue for him. But the fact he opens up is a big risk. Same with your W. What she told you was a big risk. For some reason she's in the habit of taking that small risk, but not following through with the actual conversation of what she really wants to say. In ways, you do the same. So there can be no real opening up. Of course, this takes time, and you 2 don't fully trust each other yet.
I agree with OT. Open up a little. You're both not doing that for fear of something. Your fear is rejection, a bomb. Totally understandable. But, you won't get that open R if you don't do the same. Like in DB, what you're doing now was fine to get you out of the stage you were in, but it's stagnant now. What can you do differently to push you out of the "fine" plateu? Think....be creative.
Think of why W has a problem opening up? Fear of facing the truth? Fear of things falling apart? Fear of guilt? If so, then try to be creative in making her feel safe. Be candid and open in stating what you think her fear may be, understandingly, and make her feel safe.
Another thing, I learned myself and hopefully it's valid....don't bring up OM right now. She can't even open up to talk about what's on her mind, she's certainly NOT going to broach that ugly subject, esp. if you tell her that it bothers you and hurts. She can't get a hold of opening up, let alone coping with your reactions. First work on opening both of you up to small, candid talk of R. Safe and trusting. Even if they're rare, if they're good, they make a HUGE difference and will really help her anxiety attacks.
OK, I don't know everything, just my 2 cents here....hope it helps.
Well, moot point. We just had a BIG R talk. It was neither positive or negative overall and mostly rehashed a lot of what was already said but some new things DID come out of it that I will journal about more tomorrow in the...well...today later in the morning.
am a little bit concerned about your wife and something she said
Quote: No. I can't even leave the house so..
this is something and I can't see it as being good it is wrapped up in her panic attacks and indicates to me that she is not doing well
in the midst of an attack she 'panics' and all is bad for her but when it is passed she is 'fine' I understand her worry about medication but would suggest that you bring up trying cognitive behaviour therapy to relieve the attacks it seems she is internalising a lot of stuff and it may be an idea to find a good cognitive behaviour therapist in your area - the American Psychological Association should be able to help you find one you don't always need medication to ease panic attacks (usually brought on by anxiety and stress) but getting help in how to deal with it psychologically can help tremendously the psychologist wouldnt even have to know what exactly is causing it just give help on what to do when it happens
my mother used to have panic attacks and they would come on out of the 'blue' while she was doing the most simple things she had many tests to rule out medical reasons and then saw a psychologist who helped her to work her way through them she is now fine - she also didn't want to take medication and made that clear from the beginning
it is not good for her to do nothing and the fact that she made a comment like she can't go out of the house indicates to me that they are not to be taken lightly
I hope you can convince her to do something about them
I think you may have missed a part of the current sitch. She can't leave the house because her drivers' liscece has been revoked for 30 days, not because of the panic. Actually, being semi-confined to the house is part of what is causing her stress.
That said, I agree, that it is NOT a good time for this but it's life.
I have not commented on your sitch before, but I try and read everything you post to other members. I find you advice to be amazing, and you have helped me alot just reading your posts.
Anyway, Something you said kind of caught my attention. You said this part of the journey is the hardest part. I completly understand why you feel that way, although in my sitch, I am not to the stage you are in.
I guess all I can say to you is to try and reach down inside of you and find more patience than you ever thought you could have with her.
I feel like I am trying to give advice to the master DBer, but anyway, I just thought I would let you know I keep up with your sitch.
GH, I sure hope you are doing ok. I stayed off the board for the weekend. Tried focusing on other things besides my R, then I come back to find you in turmoil.
I am anxiously awaiting your post about the BIG talk, I hope it went well. Take Care, Mama
Glad you seem to be OK. So, how did it go? Did you share *NEW* things with her about yourself and your thoughts and feelings to keep it from being same old-same old?
I could try to recreate the conversation my W and I had at about 11:30pm last night but I think by trying to put it in chronological order, I may either forget something, or add/remove context. So, I will just post the highlights as I remember them.
This started when my W was going out into the garage for a smoke. I happened to be going to the laundry room (right next to the garage) and she turned back to me as she was closing the door and looked really upset. I told her that she could talk to me if she wanted. She said no and started to close the door. I stopped her and said "Don't close the door on me, literally or figuratively." She protested for a few seconds and then started talking. In the course of the conversation a lot was said.
She said OM is still putting enormous pressure on her. Of course, this means she is still in contact with him. She says she has only seen him once and talked to him a couple times. I didn't really react to this. I was trying very hard to just listen.
She said that she still feels like she's doing things for other people all the time, that she never makes any decisions for herself and to make HER happy.
She said she thought that mainly because her sister and parents always made her feel guilty about anything she did for herself and so everything she did as a kid was to please them and as an adult, it continued. I also admitted to being controlling throughout our marriage to which she agreed. I said I saw that our entire marriage and it hurt me to see her doing that. I told her I understood why she felt that way but didn't agree at all. I said the day she started this affair, which BTW was a VERY strong thing to do, not that I approved but wanted her to know that it took strength to do that, she once and for all stopped being that girl who tries to please everyone. She said that she felt that the A was a thing of strength but never wanted to seem proud of it, especially to me because of how much it hurt me. I said maybe the specific act wasn't something to be proud of but making the decision to be happy WAS something to be proud of. She smiled.
She said now she wanted to make a decision on her own and didn't feel like she could, that she has no options. I said it may feel that way but she did have options. I told her that I was committed to improving myself and just being me the best I can but I did not want to control her in any way so if she made the decision to leave me, then so be it but I would fight with everything I had, which in my case is DB (didn't call it that, but kinda described it) to keep her in my life because I love her. She said she knew that and appreciated how I have been through all this.
We also got into the intimacy stuff and she confirmed pretty much exactly what I thought. I said I thought she really liked sex but was turned off by my lack of passion. She looked VERY relieved and said "Of course I love sex. I love sex with you but..." I interjected (sorry, should have let her talk) "But the fact that sex was the first physical contact we had for the week was horrible for you." She almost let out an amen and emphatically said "YES, that's it exactly. You never touch me and when you did, it was ALWAYS to have sex. I love having sex with you but over time I got so turned off by the way you went about it. You stopped being romantic. Everything stopped." Then I did something pretty strange and walked over to her, turned away, put my hand on her back, rubbed her for a second and then touched her breast. "See, that had to kill you. It was my test 'touching' to see if you were in the mood. The worst part is I think it probably made you feel like it could have been anyone there and I would have done the same thing. I wasn't expressing my PASSION or DESIRE for YOU, just that I wanted sex with someone, something." She cried a little and said "Yes. I felt like I didn't even matter. I felt like you didn't care it was ME in bed with you. You didn't even look at me."
We went on to talk more about that and that topic kept coming back up for the rest of the convo. At one point she said "I spend my whole day caring for the kids, hugging and kissing them and nobody ever does that for me?" I was kinda shocked. I said that I didn't know until then, that she wanted me to touch her, hold her, kiss her. I said that for years she seemed like she didn't want that. Then she said it clearly "No, I wanted it but the only time you ever did it was to get me in bed and even though I liked THAT, it hurt me that you didn't kiss me or touch me for any other reason." I just said I was sorry. I didn't understand.
I said at one point that I was NOT happy with the way things were. She called it "status quo" and also said she was not happy. I said that I thought we made great progress in terms of communication but almost no progress in "us". She said there had been NO progress with "us". Of course, I mentioned at this point that so long as the OM was in the picture, there probably would be no progress. She agreed weakly.
Much more was said about OM and at one point, about 45 minutes in, she told me how he's been telling her that she's not making any "independent" decisions and how he knows she won't leave our marriage because she's not strong enough. She will just stay and do what's expected of her. I probably jumped on this harder than I should have but I somewhat animatedly said "Wow, that sounds EXACTLY like what you told me awhile ago. You told me that YOU felt that way yet it sounds like you are just repeating what HE told you." She actually agreed with that and said "Well then, how do I know what I am making a decision for myself?"
I loved that opening. I told her that first of all, I think she's made a TON of decisions on her own since I have known her, the biggest of which was to be a stay at home mom, something she has love being. I reminded her that her parents, my parents, her sister and basically her entire family put pressure on her to put the kids in day care and get a job but she refused, stating to them that it was important to her to raise her boys, at least while they were younger. I always supported her which ever way she wanted to go. She agreed and it seemed like she hadn't really thought of that before.
I gave her some other examples where she didn't do what people expected of her and then said "The real problem I have with this, and what He's telling you, is that it seems like the only decisions you can make that would be independent or for yourself are the ones that have you leaving me and going to him." She laughed and said "Well, he obviously has no vested interest in us staying together."
She also admitted that a lot of this is her being upset at just not ending things with him. She said she did this before with her old BF that used to be voilent with her. She stuck with him even though he hit her and she sees this as a similar situaton. I didn't really know what to say to that so I just validated and let her move on.
At some point, after a lot of OM talk and talk about her panic attacks and anxiety, I decided that it was getting late and too intense. I didn't want this to be a bad thing in the end so I said two things. First, I reminded her that through all this, I never asked her to stop seeing him. I never tried to "control" her in that way. She agreed. So I said, "This is the first time I will actually ask you to do something. I want you to look me in the eyes and understand that if you decide that you can possibly find happiness AND be in our marriage, that I want you to REALLY try for that. I mean give us a chance so that you get to KNOW what is possible with us, and not base what you think on the past."
She looked at me and seemed to sincerely say "Ok."
Then I said that I wanted to finish what I had to say by (thank you OT for this BTW) letting her know that I envisioned and wanted a future where this affair/OM was behind us, and she was aware of her wants/desires and was able to fulfill them from WITHIN our marriage because she would feel free to do so without control or manipulation from me. I said I saw a future where we could do all the work that needs to be done to build something new and exciting between us, something that we never really even had in the beginning.
Her reaction was "That sounds great so now what do I do about 'him'?" I didn't have an answer but to tell her that I loved her and would help her in any way I could but that she needed to end that if that's what she wanted and when she did, I would be ready to be there for her. She said she understood.
There was a LOT more said. She did some venting at how unhappy and unloved she's felt for years because of me and that she doesn't really ever thing she was "in love" with me. OF course I said I could see that she felt that way but that as she's seen with OM, that "in love" thing NEVER lasts and when the "everything's prefect" stage wears off, the real work begins but that the "work" was a labor of love.
I told her at one point that I struggled with what I should do last night, talk to her or pin her against the wall and kiss her. She said I absolutely did the right thing because she's not ready to be kissed like that yet [by me]. At that time she also admitted a little more about her and OM being physical but still said they had NOT slept together.
All in all, I think we explored new territory and I got a chance to be VERY validating while still making sure she understood what I felt as well. That was a real first for us. It was a positive talk but the negative thing is that she is still massively conflicted. She seems to have made a decision to stay but OM is talking her out of it. She SAYS that she has not talked to him in days but I know (sorry to let you all down, but I do not regret this) because I checked her phone, that she called him twice a couple days ago. She admits to still talking to him so this was not a shock. I told her in no uncertain terms that if she wanted to work on us, and really try, that she just needed to let him go completely but that I was not telling her to do that. She needed to make up her own mind because if she came back, I wanted it to be for the right reasons.
I don't know where things go from here. I am really worried about her and this anxiety. She is a basket case right now and I can't really be there for her like I would want to. Part of me thinks she needs to deal with this on her own and part of me wants to help her. Unfortunately (or fortunately) since I am not there in the day when she is at her worst, my decision is made for me.
I still see this as a step forward. I still see things as progressing towards reconciliation. What this talk did for ME was once again let me feel like she knows where I stand, and that I understand where SHE stands. I know that I need more patience and all this talk of intimacy is too much, too soon. She needs to put this OM thing behind her and until she does, I need to DB my ass off and do what's best for me as I have been for the last 5 months. It's too soon to think about anything else.
Sorry for the long post. There IS more, and it will probably come out later in the day or when I think of it.
