Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums THE SEX-STARVED MARRIAGE Am I Creating a SSM Part II

Hmmm.. I don't know Cobra. I thought Phase3 had some interesting points, the best being that if the two people have different IDEAS/CONCEPTS of what a M should entail, you have a big problem.
Doesn't that go to the foundation of any successful R/M? If you have different beliefs and values of what makes up a happy M, you are starting on rocky ground.
For instance, if my view of the importance of sex/intimacy is completely different than my H's, it is going to affect the M negatively. And add on the importance of basic respect, friendship, etc, like in Heather's case, and what do you really have?
I understand the importance of individual happiness and not depending on the R/M to give you that happiness. But shouldn't that be a building block to the M? Shouldn't each person's individual happiness also translate into some common denominator of M happiness? ONLY if they have the same views on what a happy M should look like I think. Anyone can stay in a M and find some sense of personal happiness but I think M happiness can only be achieved if BOTH people WANT that to happen. They need to be working from a similar map/drawing board.

Phase3,

I'm not sure what you're saying here. What list of variables do you consider?

As for Heather's H, maybe I don't know enough about "married singles." On the face of it, yeah, he acts like that, but so do so many others who never emotionally matured and then withdraw from the relationship. What I don't understand is what insight that gives me. It is a symptom ,but what is the cause?

Cobra,

I feel I should echo LFL and Phase3's comments here. The fact of the matter is that human beings are social creatures instinctively, and derive much of their feelings of worth from the community. While many strive to be completely independant, you are fighting against biology. It is a basic human need to want companionship, and to feel validated by others. I think over-reliance on other people's views is dangerous, but abandoning it altogether is dangerous too (could lead to sociopathic behavior). I think we fool ourselves when we claim to only derive our sense of self-worth from ourselves. What is better IMHO is to recognize that other's opinions of ourselves is just that, opinions, and can thus be faulty (due to ignorance or even malice).

Hope that makes sense.

Chrome

LFL,

I do agree Phase3 had a different twist on the symptoms of the marriage. I didn’t mean to deny that. But simply saying people are different and have different values does not mean a marriage is doomed, especially if seen from a Schnarch perspective. In fact, I would think that as long as both people have a solid grounding within themselves, the differences in morals and values can be reconciled. That doesn’t mean either partner will ever have things go their way ever, but if they can live with a 50/50 compromise with their spouse, then the relationship may be very workable. The bottom line requirement, in my opinion, is the ability to find a workable solution and hold onto oneself what such a solution becomes difficult.

I have yet to see a post on this board complaining about a fundamental difference in values as a source of marital problems. If religion, ethics or the like are so far apart between the two spouses, I do not think people would ever get together in the first place. The problems I see on this board almost universally stem from two things: 1) lack of differentiation (and all the problems that brings, such as the power struggles, the resentment, the lack of empathy), and 2) lack of self esteem and confidence (in order to set and maintain boundaries, including the occasional “cage rattling”). Everything else flows from these two things.

There are plenty of cases of couples coming from different nationalities, religions, social classes, etc. who still have successful marriages. I think the common denominator is a solid embodiment of the types of issues we have been putting forth here. I agree that big differences can make things more difficult, but I don’t think avoiding this is a required condition. This is just how I prefer to see things. Because of this I am not nearly so fatalistic in whether a relationship can or cannot work.

One last thing, like you say, I do believe willingness needs to be there. But I see willingness as driven so much more by emotion than intellect. Emotions are soooooo flighty and shift with the wind. One wrong word from our partner and we can suddenly throw up our defenses. The right word can bring them down, and this can be within hours or days of swearing of the other person for the rest of our lives. So I personally do not believe willingness to work on a relationship is so important. What is think is necessary is LACK of a willingness to NOT work on a relationship. In other words, being open to change. This is basically where I come from on my posts.

Chrome,

…human beings are social creatures instinctively, and derive much of their feelings of worth from the community. …..It is a basic human need to want companionship, and to feel validated by others. I think over-reliance on other people's views is dangerous, but abandoning it altogether is dangerous too (could lead to sociopathic behavior). I think we fool ourselves when we claim to only derive our sense of self-worth from ourselves. What is better IMHO is to recognize that other's opinions of ourselves is just that, opinions, and can thus be faulty (due to ignorance or even malice).

I completely agree. I also think this is what I am saying, though I didn’t directly go into the need for social interaction and acceptance. But what you say is the message in Schnarch, as well as many eastern religions. Actually it is part of Christianity too. What else is meant by “To thine own self be true” and the golden rule?

My interpretation of what Shnarch, Corri, NotATLDave have been saying is basically the same thing. We each must find our sense of self from within us so that we do not crumble when the support from others disappears (for whatever reason). Being able to stand our own two feet does not mean we should exclude ourselves from any desire for human companionship, praise and admiration. These two things are not mutually exclusive. They are independent. But, requiring human companionship, praise and admiration in order to stand on our own two feet is a recipe for major disappointment. Does this make better sense?

Hi GF I'm still keeping up with you and that frustrating H of yours. You know my history so take this idea in light of that.

If your H merely wants to keep the M for the kids sake and not work on it and be a good H to you.. then he is basically saying he wants to be roommates, isnt he? I mean, he's not offering up a R that you can thrive in. He's making the bare minimum effort to keep you from walking. Why not give him what he expects? Why not just be his roomie for awhile and let him see how that'd work. That means, outside of the kids' stuff, he gets to have NO opinion on your life. He cant tell you when to come and go except for arranging for care of the kids.. who to see.. what to do, etc. He's not asking you for more than the illusion of a M at this point and he's not giving it to you.. why give him more until he antis up? Split the bills down the middle like roommates do. The way it is now, he gets to only be emotionally in as much as a room mate would and he gets to have the opinions of an H.. and he exhibits passive control over everything you do. Would you let a roommate do that to you? I think not. You'd tell a roommate to mind his/her own business and get on with your life. He controls you because he knows you want a good M if you're gonna stay living together and he knows you will work toward that until there isnt a hint of effort out of him. If he really had to live the life he says he is willing to accept, I think he might start singing a different tune. What about saying "H.. you win. We can live together as roommates for the kids. For me that means.. XYZ.. and I'll do it as long as I can. In return, you no longer get to tell me what to do or expect me to figure out how to make things better. If you change your mind about having a real marriage, let me know. Maybe I'll still be willing to give that my effort, but maybe not. It's the chance you're taking, but I respect your choice and am willing to see if I can be happy doing this YOUR way. Of course since you dont want to be an actual H to me, that means I'm free to have some of my needs met elsewhere by doing recreational activities with friends and pursuing my own personal interests." Yeah.. it's kind of a threat. But dangit.. he's not offering you anything of value that makes a M Heather.

Like I said.. you know my history well. I know how much you want this to work for your babies or I'd say.. get out.. get out fast because it's much better out of a toxic R than in it. It takes a little while to adjust, but it's wonderful to wake up and feel free.

Hang in there GF.. you are fabulous

Sheila

Heather,

I want to be sure what we on the SSM board have been trying to tell is clear. Many of the people here have a lot of knowledge behind them and have taken the time to read and learn about relationship issues. It is tempting to find fault with our spouse, for there is no shortage problems. I think everyone here, including those who have had some success, can make a complaint list several pages long. Our spouses can do the same about us. This is no secret. So digging in your heel at the wrong time and in the wrong way is nothing more than escalation and will result in further breakdown of the relationship.

But the right way of digging in your heels can help both partners grow, though it may seem like things are getting worse. The difference between that kind of tension and pure escalation can be hard to distinguish. But there is a very important difference. That is what Lil, LFL, Stig and I have been trying to tell you. Escalation is focused on the other person. Differentiation and proper boundaries are based on you. Keeping reading Schnarch and you will see more and more of what I mean.

Something Schnarch wrote in PM really grabbed my attention:
"In an emotionally fused R, when one partner starts to hold onto him~ or herself, the other partner feels controlled!"

Yes!! And this is why differentiation can look just like escalation. To you H, you are provoking him, daring him and the only way he knows to react is to strike back. He then expects retaliation from you. But “staying above the chessboard,” as Lil puts it, short circuits this cycle.

I disagree. I *do* want to hear what he has to say, as long as it's not a BS front not to have to address issues. That is usually all I get from him. Arguments about why things I say are stupid, crazy or wrong. I get very little, if any, original thought from him.

Schnarch mentions that when couples argue over whose version of the facts is correct that the couples are highly enmeshed, with each trying to make their set of complaints take precedence over the other. So each spouse tries to make the other address his/her concerns at the expense of the other.

I am a smart person and I can tell the difference between a debate meant only to steer me into the woods (thus far from the issue at hand) and self disclosure.

You two are alike. When you say you see a difference in him through self disclosure, what you are really attracted to is his showing vulnerability. This is non-threatening and makes you feel safe. But it is scary for him. For him to hear you, you must also become vulnerable and endure the “scariness.”

Cobra, can you tell me when *I* start to matter? What about my issue in the first place, the idea that I feel I deserve an answer when I ask a question of him? When are my issues EVER addressed?

Don’t you see that the key is not to expect him to EVER address your needs. You fulfill your own needs. If he then does it too, then all the better. But what happens if he decides to cut it off again? This could be for any reason, whether it is something voluntary or involuntary. In either case you are vulnerable to him. Right now you complain because he doesn’t give you’re the consideration you feel you deserve. Wouldn’t it be better if you didn’t feel this way, that his withholding didn’t tear at your heart like it does? This what differentiation means.

It does not mean you can’t love him and he love you. It does not mean you two can’t share all the things you do and that you still depend on him. But you depend on him because you want to, not because you have to, as you do now.

Maybe I just need to live my life the way I want.

Why would you not do this anyway? Even if your relationship were great, why wouldn’t you try to live your life in a way you want. There are always compromises required with another person. But when you sacrifice who you are for the sake of someone else, and they do not return whatever level of gratitude that you think is justified for your efforts, then you will grow resentful. This is human nature. But knowing it is a dangerous part of our nature, we can be smart enough to avoid its pitfalls. I acknowledge this and other dark aspects of myself exist. My task is to take those course of action that will minimize the threat to me that will bring these dark aspects out because if they emerge, the relationship suffers.

Cobra, do you really think H's answers to my questions are genuine 'answers'? Because like I said above, I feel they are just diversions. I don't push for an answer that I want, I just push for a real answer.

Heather, just what is a “real” answer? Who determines this and in the end, why does it matter? I am sure there have been arguments in the past that you have won and some that he has won. Can you tell me exactly what those arguments were over, and how you or he winning a particular argument changed the course of your relationship? If you had reversed all those arguments to where he won instead of losing, and vice versa, do you really think you would be in a different position than where you are know?

I think the answer is no. The question is why is this so and why do we bother to fight if the outcome isn’t affected? I think the reason is not the fight itself and the particular issues fought over, but the PROCESS by which disagreements are handled. The process is what affects the relationship, not the outcome of the process.

Again, look at what you fight about. Generally couples fight over nothing. Giving all the decisions to one spouse or the other will usually not change a family’s lifestyle very much since most couples are closely matched already. But look at how much an impact the fighting has. Even if no decisions are made to push the family one direction or another, stalemates can destroy a family and marriage just from the WAY the decisions are handled. So stop focusing on the outcome. It really is not so important. Let it go. When you do, he might take notice and concede to you on other points (yes, he really might, even in your state of war!)

Butt taken to the degree I would have to take it in my M, why the he!! would one bother? At some point, you have to ask "Why am I with you?!"

Good question, but one to ask yourself. There is a lot of anger and resentment in that question. How is it that someone who means so little to you, someone you might consider dropping from your life, can raise those kinds of emotions? It is because your H is really someone VERY important to you. This makes you vulnerable and it is scary. Just try to focus on your self.

Hi Heather-

Your comments on feeling depressed and totally frustrated about your sitch had me a bit concerned. Sooo....

I thought I would give my take on some of the comments and insights expressed by yourself and OP as I see them from the partial information I have at my disposal. Don't know if they will help; just another perspective to consider.

Interesting illumination of the "married single" concept phase 3 and how you see this behavior being exhibited by H and how you feel perhaps heatherg should also begin conducting her life in this manner. Again, I am going by what Heather has posted in this forum and do not have the long background of her R history or the Heather-H interactions minutiae from the other thread you have mentioned etc.

While I do see some of the characteristics of this type of "let me be/act in my own bubble and don't bother me with your problems" behavior in H I, in fact, don't see this in perhaps the same manner as you where H has an separate roommate-type sphere of existence that occasionally overlaps Heather's sphere from time to time...during, say, times of connection and angry conflict.

A way of my saying, perhaps that I differ from you in that I do not see H as an true "married single" but rather quite the opposite, an H who is incredibly needy and fused with Heather and vice versa...with near zero differentiation.

As Cobra said, enmeshment and especially considering Heather herself has said she ID'd with a lot of the Schnarch concepts along these lines of unhealthy codependency. The spheres don't occasionally overlap IMO, they are practically indistinguishably fused into each other. This is why, again IMO I feel taking an strong assertive stance with H as various OP have posed will only convince H even more Heather is trying to control him--as evidenced by his constant hyperdefensive lookout for any of her perceived "threats. And I believe an ultimate threat of breaking up the family and leaving will kick in his fear of abandonment full force at the worst possible time. He is still looking for contrition/remorse from her and apparently still hasn't seen it. IMO that would set him off like an bomb.

Likewise, I feel an complete GAL detachment while still living under the same roof is only going to aggravate his paranoia. He has already shut her down from attending an possible career-advancing dinner with 2 or 3 male colleagues and his "affair"-based machinations are only going to be kicked into overdrive the more it looks like she is paying less attention to the family. He will quickly amp up the overprotective bonding with S and D even more (as already shown by his saving the honor of sleeping in his bed with S) and start to entrench himself in the "us verses her" enemy camps even deeper. Thoughts of her sneaking out to rendezvous with other Ms during her hard core GALing will follow and he may even design to "get her back" with an A of his own at this stage in his dysfunction.

As you have described P3, it seems to me an married single wants to have his/her own space bubble without interference from the SO yet with some side benefits thrown in. Personally I see it as H being an incredibly needy partner who prefers his bubble totally immersed with Heather's bubble so they can be one big insular, albeit dysfunctional, family. An insecure, needy hurt H in "married single's" clothing...ie, an facade.

From an heather g post in an exchange with Lust For Life:

For the kids. He says D would turn their lives upside down. Can't say I disagree, but since we're here, we might as well make the most of it. Apparently,
that's where him and I see things differently.

- IMO and total BS from him. I see this as him using the kids as an excuse to cover up his immense fear of abandonment. I think he really loves you, Heather, but still wants to punish you for herting him so deeply. But he doesn't want to lose you or the kids over it. He's not willing to go that far to see your contrition.

Does he love you and how does he show that love?

He says he doesn't know if he loves me. How does he show that love? Hmm. I wouldn't say I feel loved. If he doesn't even know if he loves me, he probably
couldn't give me an answer on how he shows love. I feel cared about sometimes, like when I had the flu a month or so ago and he was good to me. That's
about the highlight of how loved I feel.

- Of course he says this. I'm not surprised. And I'll tell you what tips me off he still loves you, Heather...

He says he doesn't know if he still loves me

- Because he still loves you. Otherwise he would have dropped the "know" and it would have been, either "I don't love you anymore" or "I don't think I love you anymore, Heather, I'm sorry. And I don't want to traumatize the kids." See the difference? Another facade of indifference in his further effort to punish you and try and cover up his deep deep hurt over your betrayal...by trying to emotionally punish you via lording his "giving of his love" over to you. Doesn't think you've earned it yet. But I see his love is still there. Why do I say that? He cannot say "no, I don't love you."

Does he want to change anything about the current R (other than you nagging him, acting crazy etc)?

He won't say. Only that he wants to 'take one day at a time'.

- IMO further evidence of his love. People who say they want to take things one day at a time usually have positive expectations ascribed but want to baby step it. But it also shows his desire to monitor you very closely one day at a time for remorse and you working extra hard to regain his trust again. I believe you said yourself in an earlier thread, Heather, that he's waiting for you to show remorse and, thus far, hasn't seen it yet.

This is why total detachment IMO or full on assertiveness for him to get over it is stepping on an hornet's nest.

Both ways will only show H that you are arrogant enough to think you can just get away with your betrayal and do your own thing (hard core GAL detachment as in the first example) or behaving in your own way aggressively by calling the shots and telling him what to do and what you demand from him (asserting yourself in the second example) .

Personally I think totally reining in your angry responses should be your primary focus. H knows quite well how to push your buttons it seems. You have to use your martial arts mental training and be cognizant of this baiting tactic and use the force of it against H via deflection away from you while keeping an peaceful and positive demeanor. Reacting negatively will only feed him.

So if I were to choose I would, as Cobra stated, err on the side of, say, "loving congenial detachment." Yet an detachment that does not compromise your boundaries. Set them and don't crumble. It's possible to be firm with H without losing your temper. So be very firm with what you will and will not tolerate without showing any anger. If you feel it? Walk away and reframe your thoughts onto something else until it passes. And it is important to not let him disrespect you in this regard. The more you stand up for yourself while staying positive the more H will, in fact, actually respect you. You have let him push you around for quite some time in your R and in a strange but common way he disrespects you for both/either crumbling easily and/or flying off the handle in hurt tit-for-tat anger. Cooly but caringly remind him through your tempered responses that he cannot have all of the power and control over your r to do as he sees fit.

Why does he have such low standards for his own M?

He didn't used to, but then I cheated on him. Now, all bets are off and he is choosing the lesser of two evils for the benefit of his kids. Or so he says.

- Or so he says--exactly; for the kids; for reasons I have already explained.

Ah, so his standards for your M have dropped significantly since the A. Naturally. Boy he must really love you to hang on to his hurt over your A for so long. At least that's one of my tip-offs here. Do you see what I am saying?

And better yet, what are your standards?

My standards are much higher than this. We should be sleeping in the same bed. I am wearing my rings and we are still together two years, post A....he should
be wearing his ring as well. We should be able to talk about issues in our M. We obviously can't resolve every issue we have, but we should be able to
*discuss* every issue we have. If he is so interested in porn, seeing other women naked, you'd think he'd be at least slightly interested in getting some
alone time with ME, away from the kids. My standards are not to be treated like a princess, but to be treated like I matter, like I am an important and
valued person in his life. I expect to be talked to as such.

- No bed. No ring for him. Soooo, no, no talking, alone time together, or cessation of his porn to rub in your face. He can't let go of his resentment. And since I think you said he has no friends and prefers to be alone it has taken over his brain like an virus. There is no detachment or distraction from his thoughts.

the human brain can only focus on one thought at any given moment during the day. when that thought is negative and the subsequent series of thoughts are negative it will have an toxic effect on this person along with all who interact with this person. It seems to me your H is stuck in obsessing over your betrayal and hurting of him so much so that he latches on to this one thought and infinite loop cycles it all day/ night long. IMO he needs to go out by himself with friends. He needs to exercise and eat right if he isn't doing so. He needs to do things to get his mind off of his resentment or it will drive him crazy like cabin fever.

...And at some point he needs to feel comfortable enough to open up with an frank discussion of everyone's lingering feelings over any past transgressions.

I didn't intend for this to be so long. I wanted to address an dynamic I see in your R and I guess I will address it in an subsequent post. I meant only to address that I do not see H as an married single--despite exhibiting traits of such--nor do I think it would be an good idea for you to become an married single yourself as IMO his resentment will stay put and he will think you once again think you can do damned well what you please via leading your own life without him.

Finally, Heather, let me just say this. I don't see you as an F who would collapse to the floor in tears and beg H for forgiveness and pleadings of sorrow after he discovered your A. If my thinking is right on this I think if you had done such with an display of total vulnerability at the figurative feet of your H back then his current attitude would be much different and he would have been satisfied that was the remorseful behavioral display he still seeks from you today.

-Stigmata-

PS. Phase 3 said something about H not fully committing to stop drinking since he drinks the non (miniscule) alcoholic O'Doul's? I disagree. I don't see any problem with that. I think his effort to quit an btch of an addiction like this and switch to non-alcoholic OD is not only admirable but, again, shows that he really loves you, Heather.

Okay, to continue...

I am not so pessimistic over the chances of you regaining mutual love and trust in your R (as perhaps has been expressed by yourself and OP) for reasons I have already addressed. I think your M can be saved and restored once the figurative "reset" button is pressed and there is an steady, albeit painful, migration toward individuality.

This relates to the dynamic I see in your "loss of individual identities" R. For me, the married single concept might be plausible in an normal couple with an normal history of single relationships but there is no such history for you and H. You met, fell in love, and married starting in your teens--thus bypassing all of the important social dynamics one learns while maturing into young adulthood.

While most of us had left our parents' home, gone off to colllege or the workforce and explored the ups and downs of single life, especially as it relates to dealing with PITA roommates, dorm mates, dating nightmares etc. both you and H have essentially bypassed all of these life lessons.

Most of us (at least I have anyway) have had to deal with numerous roommates while we were single, some of them who were complete selfish or inconsiderate monsters who you didn't want to even speak to for days often times. Living with OP requires a lot of trial and error IMO to see what works out best for yourself and the OP. And since we're often talking about 12-month lease terms here there is no feeling of frustration that you're chained to this person for the long haul when resentment creeps ihn over eaten food/stolen CDs/missing clothing etc. and the like.

What I see is you and H have been placed into an real trial by fire life arrangement through your early sheltered R--with few skills at your disposal to handle the big time ups and downs people have when they choose to spend an lot of time with another person and live under the same roof.

As a result, it's easy to see that you and H have effectively become each other's entire existence through some very formative years. As a result IMO any disruption in that wholly fused oneness will be amplified ten-fold. This is now why I think I understand H's 2-year punishment of you for your A. In my case, since I did have a lot of life/roommate/dating experience I had the tools to eventually stop the punishment of x for her A way before 2 years--which was inversely ten-fold worse than your EA BTW. And I have to admit even though I had good "dealing/living with" and dating OP" experience I often found those thoughts creeping back in over a period of years. Should have sought an C.

The fact that your H is even willing to sit in an MC's office shows me he not only cares for your R but loves you and your kids. After all, I am certain he feels like if anyone you should be the one who needs the therapist...since you lost your mind and went outside the M to have your needs (I prefer the word "wants") met. You are each other's life and only frame of reference. And once you brought OM into this dysfunctional fused no individual identity fantasy life the bubble burst along with H's whole existence--seeing as he had no individual identity and only could identify with the fused Heather-H oneness persona.

Boom. Left him without an identity to fall back upon. No single life. No college guy who's GF cheats on him and he goes right back into his messy dorm room, regroups, and takes his identity outside again to mix with OP and Fs once again.

And so this is what I see. You are both so intertwined from such an early age that you cling to each other from an scarcity mentality. That the fear of separating both of your underdeveloped "single" identities will leave you both afraid of being abandoned by the other permanently and all alone in the world if you step too far away from each other.

Fortunately for you, I see you as someone who is further down the road of having your own individual identity outside of your R. Good career. Contacts. Hobbies. Friends. ie, normalcy.

Your H, on the other hand, is lagging behind IMO. I think he's terrified and somewhere his unconscious knows more and more, day by day you don't absolutely require him to live your own life; whereas without you IMO he would feel completely helpless and crawl deeper into his video games, TV, and porn. All virtual realities.

Finally, his treatment/responses towards you. OP have said it's cruel and mean. Yes, I agree but I do not believe it's out of an lack of love or concern. In fact, I don't even think he realizes how mean his reactions are. Remember the saying how kids can be so cruel to each other? His responses are so immature I find it hard to believe they are not coming from an teenager. To me this signifies his stunted development in close human-human interaction. Where emotionally he in fact is still an teenager.

It's as if you've become his bratty sister, his inconsiderate/stealing college roommate, and his GF turned W all rolled up into one and his only way of dealing with you is through the tools available to an teenager--the silent treatment, immature verbal insults and responses, and punishment befitting an bratty sister and not an eequal W. All actions that would be written off as normal cruelty for an young boy/kid but downright hostile and hateful if ascribed to an grown man.

Like I said, once you are both able to regain your individual identities and allow them to grow a bit on their own through maturation etc. I think you can come back together in your R and continue raising the family with a nice sense of normal healthy differentiation. The good news is you are already well on your way to understanding this and are finding your own identity.

The bad news is H has been stunted in his development or understanding of his own identity by your A and still has a long way to go. And the primary reason for his roadblock is his harbored resentment which consumes his mind and leaves no time for him to concentrate on understanding himself as an self-actualized human being and focusing on his goals, dreams, and ambitions both outside of and inside of your R.

Hopefully that sign of remorse he is looking for from you will come sooner rather than later.

-Stigmata-

PS. I would also not discount hampering things could be that H is still suffering from perhaps remnants of an post-alcoholic depression. It is not out of the question given his behavior and cold turkey abstinence. Might want to look into it.

Stig,

Another amazing work of insight! You have describe Heather’s H exactly as I see him, far better that I could have, as a very hurt and scared child, desperately trying to get back the oneness he once knew with his soulmate. This was me years ago, when in college I dated/lived with a girl for 5 years (which at that time was an eternity). When I went to grad school at Tx A&M, she stayed behind at UT. I felt unsure if she was the right one to marry but knew I had to decide soon. I was testing her and she failed, had an affair, starting sleeping with someone else. I was absolutely destroyed. She was my whole life.

Everything that was me was wrapped up in her, and I only had myself to blame. What I wanted/needed ore than anything else at that time was to hear her complete remorse, sorry, I want to see her suffer for the betrayal and the pain she caused me. My whole future had vanished. (It was very much like Blackfoot’s situation. BTW, Blackfoot, where the H are you!!) But I was too angry to let her back in, and too dysfunctional within myself to know what I had done to create this mess, how I did not give her what she needed. So I focused my anger on her. The only way I think she could have done enough to help me get over the affair was for her to completely obsess over me to smother out my abandonment fears to the point of my finally having to come up for air. I think then I would have felt secure with her again.

I now know how unrealistic that would be in practice, but that is how I felt at the time. I also think that is how Heather’s H feels, which is just what you describe Stig. I think I mentioned somewhere that these types of extremely fused situations need to get back to a point of stability sufficient to just allow daily life to move forward and the growth process to slowly begin. So I think H and her husband should re-enmesh, as unhealthy as that may be. Stig, you are right in that Heather should profusely apologize, make him see her breakdown, rolling in tears, maybe even throw in some good theatrics. It is all illusion anyway.

The one thing I have not thought about is that HE should get a life. That will help him feel fulfilled, he will sense some “justice” knowing she is tied to the house watching the kids and waiting for his return. (Some of the insights from schlessinger may be helpful here too.) That will help him heal and get over his anger. I think that is an excellent idea Stig. (I am also glad you too saw the danger in Phase3’s recommendations!)

Heather, I hope you understand that what we propose is not the DIRECT route to a healthy relationship, but a detour back to dysfunction in order to slowly move toward differentiation at a pace you both can tolerate. Things may be moving too fast right now. You might also want to look into some books or websites on narcissism, as I am now getting the feeling your H has a healthy does of this that keeps him wrapped up in his shell. In fact, you might look into some of these behaviors in case some of them apply to you, which would not be uncommon for a couple with as much limited emotional growth as you two have had. Extra awareness certainly won’t hurt.