That was so wrong of your SO to have her daughter lie to her mom. How could the ow condone it?
I don't have any good advice. I don't know what to tell you to with him.
I just wanted to write to you. I'm so sorry that he did that. I know that it makes things very confusing. You are a strong, capable, loving person, you don't deserve to be lied to. What was the, you don't get it do you, there is no other woman line all about? This is very confusing, even from an outsiders perspective.
I guess it's time to lay down some groud rules and possibly just detach completely and not try to work on this R anymore. Work on yourself, yes, but lay down some guidelines and let SO know that you can not function with the deceit. I'm so sorry for how hurt and tricked you must feel. I guess the story of the scorpion going across the river is true. You do have so much strength and perseverance and sound like a really great mother. You really deserve much better.
Beware, this is a definite rant. I feel like such a jacka$$, that I BELIEVED he wouldn't lie to me about this important subject.
I talked with him on the phone...and quite frankly, I think I'm done. I can't do this anymore - not with him being so messed up. He thinks it's no big deal. Says the kids think we are still together. D7 gave a few more details - OW was there all 3 times she was at SO's - including the last time when they all colored easter eggs together. That OW was already there when they got there - so, this means she's either got a key and/or possibly lives there. And he says the whole meeting of the OW as "it's no big deal". Says he doesn't want the kids in OW's life.
Says he so confused he doesn't know what to do. There's things I give him that OW doesn't and vice versa. He's afraid of losing one of us. Afraid it'll be the wrong choice.
I'm so upset about the deceit and what he did to D7. I could deal with OW factor - if it was mutually discussed and decided upon BEFOREHAND. If we're really done - then that would be the next stage. Yet - he did it this way.
Some might say I'm trying to control him - but I've had this discussion with him before. That if he wanted to move to that next level,i.e. - introduce the kids - then it needed to be done with everyone aware of what's going on. That's why I am angry. Yes, there's hurt underneath - because of all the underlying stuff between him & I, but I'm doing my best to keep it separate.
He can call me; sleep with me; hang out, eat dinner and simultaneously carry on the same thing with another woman as well? And this isn't going to screw up the kids? Why not just end it with me then? That's what I don't get. Why all the contact...why all the "everything"? Oh - I forgot - he's confused. (Yes, tons of sarcasm dripping off that.) If he wants to be with OW, if he wants them to be a big happy family - then why the hell is still involving himself with me?
He said "we weren't getting along". That's why he went to OW. I said Yes, things we could have worked on. Things that I have difficulties working on now when there is OW in the background." He said "I know." I said "I recognize a lot of things that I did in our R that I didn't do right - I know that. I know what they are. The things you need from me." I went on..."It's just that I find it so very difficult to do when you have that other R now."
He says "No woman will be a part of what he does. They don't understand - only *I* do. That I've been the only one who has ever understood (his job and his way of thinking). I said "You told me OW understood you? She doesn't? I thought all along that's what you said about her?" I also asked him if that was what he wanted - to introduce the kids and have OW be a part of their life. He said No, he doesn't want that. WTF????
He's so messed up. One minute I can do no right - the next, he says something completely opposite. It all makes ME so confused. How do I handle this? I don't feel that this is something I can let slide, but I don't know how to enforce this boundary. I mean, I asked if he wants OW to meet them - he says no. But then is he going to sneak it behind my back again? That's not right either.
Is he afraid? Having OW meet the kids would bump that R into a different status. And where does that leave me? I don't think I could continue taking the late night phone calls, the "emotional ties" that OT pointed out...that would all have to cease, in my eyes. Is that wrong? Right? I've already been thinking about putting an end to all that anyway. I'm just too confused to make any sense of anything.
No, NM, you just don't like being lied to when your kids' emotional well-being is at stake. I'm with you and so is every other parent on this board. At a minimum, you needed to know so that you could be prepared to discuss it with your kids when they have questions.
You can be "done" if you want, of course, but as GH always says, what has really changed? He was lying to you about the A before and he's lying now. The biggest change seems to be that you thought you were making progress and now that seems to have evaporated.
Personally, I'd advise going dark for a while. I think it's impossible to DB when you're as angry as you are right now. It's helped me a lot to have time when I simply wasn't talking to my W ... I could GAL and have some peace because I wasn't constantly worrying about what I would say to her.
I know RB quoted me saying "well, what has changed." and he is right to quote that in terms of this thing being a reason to quit. I don't believe it is a reason to "give up" in the grand scheme of things, but I sure can understand how hurt and angry you must be.
I will depart a little from RB here though. I think rather than it being impossible to DB when you are as angry as you are, it is not only possible, but imperative that you do so. Now at this point I am talking more about the DBing as expressed by self love and growth, detachment, etc. I don't think it's very realistic to be working on your marriage in that state, but you can use this is a perfect "worse case scenario" and power yourself towards a more centered place.
Now, practically, I think something HAS changed. He has begun to once again, open up about his TRUE feelings of confusion about and care for OW. This hurts like hell, but it's better than him lying and faking a return to you.
Now for the specifics...
Quote: He can call me; sleep with me; hang out, eat dinner and simultaneously carry on the same thing with another woman as well? And this isn't going to screw up the kids? Why not just end it with me then? That's what I don't get. Why all the contact...why all the "everything"?
I know you are just ranting but this is a silly question/statement, one I know you answered immediately after with "Oh - I forgot - he's confused" but really, this is about him figuring things out and being TOTALLY confused. Understand, confused to him does not mean that at all times he has thoughts of both of you, which is what I think you imagine is his state of mind. I think he is confused because one minute/hour/day/week, he is totally convinced that he loves OW with all his heart, that she "understands him" more than anyone, even his W and that he needs to D and make his life with her. Then the next minute/hour/day/week (BTW, this probably corresponds with which woman he is currently with) he thinks "how could I be so stupid", my W is my soul mate, SHE truly understands me more than OW ever could. What am I thinking? I have a family I love, a home I enjoy, a W who is changing before my eyes into this even MORE wonderful woman and all this I will give up if I don't stop this affair. What I am trying to say NM is that I think YOU think he is dealing with each of you while being totally conflicted about the other. I am not so sure that is the case. This is as far out on the speculation/amateur-psyche limb I go...lol. Anyway, I just want to make sure that, aside from the sarcasm, you truly do realize that your man is confused in a way that is more akin to insanity than merely having a difficult choice to make. I say insanity because unlike just having two things to choose from, each having it's pros and cons, he may feel like at any given moment he only has ONE thing that has most of the pros and that the other is almost ALL cons, then the next moment, he flops. I am NOT giving him sympathy, just trying to give you something akin to a different perspective.
Quote: I don't think I could continue taking the late night phone calls, the "emotional ties" that OT pointed out...that would all have to cease, in my eyes. Is that wrong? Right? I've already been thinking about putting an end to all that anyway. I'm just too confused to make any sense of anything.
I think that OT's main purpose, or at least the one I seem to have gotten the most out of (correct my if I am wrong OT) around here is to get us to understand that the choices we make are OUR choices and need to be made because WE think they will benefit US, not because we want to control the outcome of something, or because someone else wants us to make this particular choice. So with that in mind, I think it's entirely appropriate here to draw up some real boundaries. As for enforcing them, well, I struggle there. I often wonder how we are to enforce a law that is put in place by authority some people (H & OW) don't recognize. If he is truly bent on having the kids around OW and doesn't care what it does to his future with you, then I guess that takes things a step farther down the road to him not having a future with you. I think that may be the best thing boundaries could do for you right now; let you know where he thinks he is at and where he wants to be so YOU can make the appropriate decisions about where to go from here, if anywhere, in this relationship.
Beware though, his addiction/insanity is strong and simply telling the crack addict that you'll be angry and leave them if they smoke again is likely not enough to get them to stop even if they really do love you. I think I am somewhat contradicting myself but that's my final sort of advice in all this. You ARE confused, contradicted and unsure because it's really difficult not to be when presented with this set of circumstances. So the best thing you can do it sort out your own head and then take a look at what you have to work with in the rest of this mess.
I wish I had more to tell you about the sitch with OW meeting D. I think that was a really crappy thing to do, but not particularly surprising.
I know you will process this and come to a better place from which to move forward but in the meantime, post, vent, cry, do whatever and we'll support you.
Sorry, just have a minute... So sorry this happened. Sadly, it is not unusual or surprising in these circumstances. I hope you will talk to some friends or family to get support.
Now, he can do those things because you choose to do them. You are not in a committed monogomous R and you know this. If you were, you could talk about OW and your fears and ask for reassurance. The topic is taboo because you are not in a committed monogomous R. The thing to ask yourself is whether you are happy have sex with someone outside such a context. It seems not. So why are you continuing to do so? Why do you want a level of emotional involvement and dependency that you have maintained in such an R?
Look, boundaries are YOUR boundaries. Not boundaries about what he can or can't do. You can't control him. Unless you are going to legally prevent him from seeing your children by himself, you cannot prevent him from seeing them with OW. You cannot force him to tell you the truth. PEOPLE LIE ABOUT A's and the stuff related to A's ALL THE TIME.
What can you do?
1) Do not stay silent with your children any longer. You cannot trust him to share info with them appropriately. You can choose to share info with them. Invite him to the discussion or not.
2) Make sure your kids know that they do NOT have to keep daddy's secrets.
3) Don't sleep with him, you resent him for your choice here.
4) Decide what R with him works for YOU in this context and act accordingly. Are you content with being one of his multiple girlfriend's and sexual partners? Are you content with being a platonic friend? Are you content with being merely a polite co-parent? To be honest, I don't see how the first two would be good for you. You want more than the first and he is not treating you like a friend. But, YOU need to decide what YOUR boundary here is in terms of physical and emotional intimacy and YOU need to maintain it.
5) Decide what level of trust you are willing to risk with him on what issues. As far as your R, the A, the kids, etc..., I'm not sure why you would expect him to be honest with you now. Until you can have frank open discussions about such things and until he is willing to work to earn your trust, my guess would be that he is not ready for a committed monogonous R. In general, I don't think anyone dating more than one person is entirely candid with the other dates.
He is NOT doing these things TO YOU TO HURT YOU. He is in a very different R than you continue to be with him. Step away -- you don't seem to want the R he is in with you. You want him to have the feelings you want him to have and the level of commitment you want him to have. He is not obligated to do either. Would you want him to act out of obligation in any case?
Get a job. Take care of the child care arrangements. Quit giving up your life to support his -- you are no longer partners and it is not reasonable of him to expect this from you.
Plus, write really nasty things about them and burn them up. He is being a total creep. Then, go out and find a friend and a bottle of wine.
BTW, had you ever expected A's or inappropriate behavior before the current OW? I hate to say it, but to me he seems like a man that has not been used to monogomy for sometime....
Just to clarify, since I think my previous post was confusing, "going dark" IS DB (as Michele herself makes clear on the thread I linked) if you use it for GAL and detachment, so GH and I are basically on the same page. It's time to focus on you for a while and just ignore your SO.
You've "gone dusk" before anyway, where you would ignore most of his messages and texts, so I don't think I was proposing anything extreme for you.
My point was that your anger right now, while completely justified, will not draw him back to you, so there's no point in talking to him, because it's not going to help.
The LORD is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth." (Psalm 145:18)
OT, you rock. That is some REALLY good stuff and as much as I try to help folks around here, I just can't seem to nail it like you do.
My only thought I want to add is that you (OT) keep coming back to that idea that we LBS try to be in a relationship that doesn't exist. Well, to be fair to us LBS's here and NM in particular, the WAS tend to get us all twisted around so that through their visible actions and words to us, they get us to BELIEVE we are in the kind of R that ML and other things are possible with. We are led to believe that they are being truthful and honorable about the aspects of the R that are important to us in this respect and so we act on that belief. It's only when these things happen like what happened with the kid(s) and OW that we realize that we've been had. Of course, we're naive to believe in these things to start but I have to think that comes from OUR misguided attempt at being "good" people.
I think that's why I like your post so much because you then go on to talk about deciding what level of trust to afford the WAS and on what subjects. I think, obviously, this level of trust defines what is then possible in the R and for NM, I think her trust level just dropped a few notches and thus, so too did the level of their relationship.
NM, it sucks to get so far up and then have the ladder yanked from under you. I really feel for you and suspect that something like that is possible with my sitch. I hope you can get through this and still maintain the great work on YOU that you have been doing lately.
As usual, listen to OT and implement as much as you can.
First, let me thank all of you for your posts....this is pretty much the only place I have any support and the thought you all put into your responses means a lot to me.
Am going to try an answer/comment the best I can...a little combined, and a little apart.
Yesterday when all this happened...as well as when I saw him today, I was the frickin' posterchild for calm, cool, collected. There was no yelling, no crying, no blaming, simply stated how I felt. I think it was my DBing's finest hour.
Quote: Here's a great thread if you're interested: "Going Dark" 101
Thanks Rb...that will be my next reading for the night. Or maybe I'll just ignore it all and read Harry Potter again!! My mind needs a break.
Quote: This is as far out on the speculation/amateur-psyche limb I go...lol.
Thanks for the amateur psycho-analysis! LOL
Quote: Anyway, I just want to make sure that, aside from the sarcasm, you truly do realize that your man is confused in a way that is more akin to insanity than merely having a difficult choice to make. I say insanity because unlike just having two things to choose from, each having it's pros and cons, he may feel like at any given moment he only has ONE thing that has most of the pros and that the other is almost ALL cons, then the next moment, he flops. I am NOT giving him sympathy, just trying to give you something akin to a different perspective.
Thanks for the different perspective. I'm starting to think that I may be looking at alternate perspectives too much. I've looked at things in so many different ways, and the fact is that I have no idea where his mind is at - he can't be truthful about his R with OW to me; he can't be honest with OW about his R with me; and he's just screwed up in the head right now.
Quote: My only thought I want to add is that you (OT) keep coming back to that idea that we LBS try to be in a relationship that doesn't exist. Well, to be fair to us LBS's here and NM in particular, the WAS tend to get us all twisted around so that through their visible actions and words to us, they get us to BELIEVE we are in the kind of R that ML and other things are possible with. We are led to believe that they are being truthful and honorable about the aspects of the R that are important to us in this respect and so we act on that belief. It's only when these things happen like what happened with the kid(s) and OW that we realize that we've been had. Of course, we're naive to believe in these things to start but I have to think that comes from OUR misguided attempt at being "good" people.
GH - You've described how I feel better than I ever could have. When he point blank tells me "OW will not be there" I believe it. To NOT believe it would keep me in a negative cycle, wouldn't it?
Like I stated earlier, I had been thinking about going dark because of the emotional ties that OT pointed out...he's relying on me for certain things....and because of these emotinal ties, I get lulled into believing things that may not necessarily "be". I mean, I KNOW he's seeing OW, although it appears not as much as before (more on that later - re:things he said to me today); I've never tried to ignore her presence. Yes, I act "as if" she doesn't exist for DBing purposes - but not to give myself false thoughts. She exists, I know it. Their status of their R is what I'm not aware of...I tend to assume they are together until otherwise clarified to me.
When something likes this happens, he goes on about how confused he is. He said some things today regarding his R with OW. His email: "I am truly sorry about not telling you about OW being there when D7 was there, and I mean it, All my kids will ever think is that she, like everyone else is just a friend. I dont like the relationship I have w/ her, and never have. Thats the truth."
I know - I KNOW - don't believe what he says. Actions speak louder than words. This man is truly, deeply confused. He made additional comments, when we were talking very calmly about things and what to do next...States he's played out that R; he does not want the kids to think WE are not together; doesn't want them in OW's life. Added further that he hates having sex with her and that he's addicted to me. Doesn't want to be away from me (yet still not ready to re-commit - WTF dude!!)
I told him that I thought it might be best if we ceased any interactions that were on a personal level from this point forward. That the things we did (i.e., the calls, the sex, the 'little' things) were things that I felt only 2 people in a committed monogamous R should be doing with each other. I told him it wasn't his fault I felt this way, that it was me. That I let myself believe these things were perhaps more meaningful than they really were. At this, he starts freaking out. The old "I'm confused."
I understand he's confused...that makes me confused. I felt we were getting closer...being more forthcoming with each other. Which is why I was continuing with those things...he was seeing me differently....seeing that I was, perhaps, not all the bad things he thought...the things that led to OW. Some of the things he said to me about his R with OW; the closer we were becoming - he's never said these kinds of things to me before. I mean, I'm very well aware that he does not say ILY; doesn't say that he misses me (just not talking with me) nor does he say he wants to work on things. But then, he doesn't want to completely sever all ties with me either.
That leaves me in a tough position. The amount of contact he has with me - when I tell him to knock it off (of course in much nicer terms), it makes him do it more. When I say no more ML - it puts his libido into overdrive.
I don't think I treat him rudely or mislead him in any way when asking him to slow this stuff down. I point blank tell him "don't do it if you don't want a committed R with me as it confuses me". He won't even give himself the chance to miss me. That's what is so frustrating.
I guess I just need to make a decision and stick to it regardless of what he may be thinking these days. OT, you're right. My boundaries. I need to work on them. All I can think of right now, is that I just want him to leave me alone about anything personal. I don't want him calling, emailing, texting things that have double, ambiguous meanings. I mean, if I don't answer the phone at 2 AM - then he leaves the message that he misses talking to me, why won't I talk to him, he likes to hear my voice before he goes to bed. I mean, I think I'm trying to give him space...the he acts like he deosn't want the space. If I act like we're headed toward working on things, then something like this happens. ARRGHH!
I know I missed answering some of the great points everyone made. I've actually printed out the whole thread and am reading it again. I'll probably continue to quote and answer when I can.
Thanks all!
I'm sorry if this post is all over the place....kinda like my life!!
Quote: Yesterday when all this happened...as well as when I saw him today, I was the frickin' posterchild for calm, cool, collected. There was no yelling, no crying, no blaming, simply stated how I felt. I think it was my DBing's finest hour.
That is amazing! Wow. That's impressive that you were able to channel all you anger away from him.
Quote: That leaves me in a tough position. The amount of contact he has with me - when I tell him to knock it off (of course in much nicer terms), it makes him do it more. When I say no more ML - it puts his libido into overdrive.
So, if you don't give it to him and he doesn't really like ML to the OW, what would happen to him in a couple of weeks? Might it not be enough to get him to get off the fence and make a decision? Honestly, NM, the weirdest thing about your sitch is that your SO seems to be desperately pursuing you, even as he continues the A. I personally don't think you're in any danger of his simply deciding to walk away from you forever.
Quote: All my kids will ever think is that she, like everyone else is just a friend.
Highly doubtful. Our kids are smarter than our WAS's think. The very fact that it had to stay a "secret" was enough to tell your D that this was no ordinary friend.
The LORD is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth." (Psalm 145:18)
The issue with the kids. Let him visit them at your place until you feel sure that he also has there best interest at heart and will do nothing further to confuse them. Which if they think mommie and daddie are still together but hmmm theres this other person with daddy to will confuse them.
Right now sounds like SO is having his cake and eatting it to. Because he is confussed. You might want to put him on a crash diet. Don't answer those late night calls. Let him call and talk to the children but if you have nothing important to tell him then let the calls end with the kids, And sex well I would say now is the time to go dark with that dynamic of the relationship now that you have confirmed that OW is still around.
Take him to a place where he has the option to miss you. To come seeking you.
