Rob, that sucks man! I really feel for you because like some other's here, your sitch is very similar to mine, as you well know.
It seems like the theme for the week is "they just don't seem to give a damn what we say". I know I feel that way. I haven't expressed that much in my thread but I should. I too share your same frustration, Mama & Rob. I do all these things, not just for W, but for me, and it seems not to register with her at all. That said, I think it DOES register but maybe they just don't do a good job of letting us know when they DO notice or appreciate it.
Now, specifically for your sitch...
Quote: It just boggles my mind that a decision can't be made about her life...yes, I know, many others are faced with similar circumstances, but what is it about these WAS' that makes them forget about everything important, everything good and only focus on the negative?
I don't think it's so much that they forget, or don't notice so much as they don't necessarily BELIEVE in the new situation that is your M. They are still in that mode where the M represents the devil they know, that may have changed clothes and hair style, but is still the devil. The OM represents all that is new and different. They are the beacon of hope when there was no hope. Either that or hopeless losers praying on married women...lol. Sorry. What I mean is that your W's inability to just cold turkey this thing is maybe because she still sees issues in your marriage and with you she doesn't like and can't/won't talk to you about them so still thinks leaving is better than the alternative of accepting the M as is. Of course she COULD learn to communicate, read Mars/Venus, read 5 LL's and make a sincere, heartfelt effort to rebuild the marriage with you, but hell, that would actually take hard work, time and commitment...ouch. I guess seeing you back here like this makes me a little angry. I vowed to stop my sarcasm long ago and I swear that will be the last one... Try to understand Rob, that yes, you have had issues with just focusing on the good things and I think, even though I said all that crap back there, you really need to try to do that once again. She's still there, working on things, just not as hard or fast as you'd like.
Quote:
I guess that's the other part of it too.....I'm beginning to think that maybe I gave too much and never asked for enough in this relationship. I look back over the years and while I wasn't the perfect husband, I did a lot of the things that were "right" without a handbook. Aside from the obvious (not gambling, staying out to all hours of the night, etc.) I always tried to make my W feel important and happy. In short, I believe I did everything I could to make things good for her and it just isn't enough.
I'll beat OT to the punch (sorta). Sometimes I feel I did too but I know I did not. Maybe, just maybe there ARE situations where the LBS WAS almost perfect, or perfect enough to have the issues 99% the WAS's fault. Also too, it's possible that your WAS is just an evil ass for whom there is no place in decent human society.
For all the rest of us, and Rob, this means YOU, there is a huge job ahead of us in trying to put ourselves in their shoes and understand what THEY feel is wrong with the R. Maybe we thing their reasons are stupid, offset by other "good" things, irrational, petty, whatever. Point is that no matter how foolish their reasons are/were, and how many GREAT things we did during the M, those reasons were enough that they decided to stray from the marriage.
Quote: I was reading in Mars/Venus that men, in particular, need the time to withdraw from relationships at times (the rubber band effect) when they feel too close. When this natural cycle is interrupted, it tends to bring about overdependence and other various nasty stuff. Looking back, I have to wonder if this isn't the case with me. I never was truly given that space even though at times I felt I needed it. Anytime I started to pull away, i was usually sucked back in emotionally (through negative stimuli). Now, to be fair, I suppose she wasn't always allowed to have her "wave" crashing moments either because i would usually try to "help" her out of her down moods. I don't know, everything seems so dysfunctional and I wonder whether it can ever be fixed. I mean, I can see myself recognizing these things and making the effort to have better relationship skills, but I don't ever see my W doing the same thing. And while all these things are good things, what good are they if only one person is employing them?
I don't really identify with the whole "cave" thing. I think there is some role reversal in my sitch, but more on that another time. So, you will need to examine your own cave. As for me not letting my W have her "wave" time, I too feel I failed in this. We have to resist the urge to fix them no matter how easy it seems to do. After reading Mars/Venus, I can say that this is one of the most beneficial things I got from it. Letting them have their down moments is also another word for detaching.
Quote: I guess I'm a little bother today more than usual because W is again taking one of her weekend getaway trips. This will be the third one since the beginning of the year. She'll declare during the week that she needs to "get away" from things and I completely understand this....heck I need to get away from things too.
Rob, I really struggled before responding to this because my intuitive response is to say WTF? What about getting away with YOU and seeing what it's like with YOU, away from it all? I know when W and I went to Ireland, it seemed to open her eyes to the fact that life was actually fun with me, so long as the bills, kids and other daily life didn't interfere. Sure, it sounds like that trip would have been great for W if she went with ANYONE else but it meant a lot for us to be able to enjoy each other's company. I think we need a reminder every now and then that all the world's issues are NOT our spouses fault and removing ourselves from the "world" together is good.
Quote: The other thing is that typically she comes home and she "says" that she wants to work this out, she wants to get her life back, etc.....but it only lasts about two days
What do you think causes her to relapse into confusion mode?
All in all Rob, I think you just need to get back on track. I think you probably fell back into some old habits and need to get back to DBing again. Keep us posted!
Good for you Mama! Carry that PMA on through the rest of the day.
You mentioning your 3 kids has also reminded me of something else I wanted to touch upon that may have contributed to my yucky mood. Last night I attended my 3 D's Parent/Teacher conferences. Each one recieved such positive and glowing remarks from their teachers with respect to academics and behavior. I was absolutely glowing with pride! Then it hit me....we have always been a very, very close family. What effects would a split have upon them, socially, academically, emotionally? This really brought me down.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
Quote: I myself have been debating about this for several months and still haven't taken the plunge, but there are days when I question whether I can continue on without that insight.
WTH? You aren't seeing someone already? Dude, do it today. It WILL help, ESPECIALLY at this stage!
Quote: Yeah, I can identify with the last part of your statement. Truthfully, I find it hard to play the "role" of happy husband when I know that things aren't so "happy". Yet, I still try if only to save my sanity, but also that of my girls and my W.
Ah, but that's because you are defining yourself first as Husband and THEN Rob. You learn to maintain your sanity by realizing that acting as a husband is what you do in a marriage, not who you are in life, and when the marriage is failing, then you are much less husband and much more Rob than when the marriage is strong and healthy. It seems like the best place to be is when you can fully be Rob AND Husband without sacrificing either.
It's much easier to be a happy Rob, and all that being you entails OUTSIDE the marriage, than it is to be a happy husband right now.
I want to respond in fuller detail to your usual helpful and insightful posts, but I wanted to touch upon something real quick before I went to lunch.
Quote: Rob, I really struggled before responding to this because my intuitive response is to say WTF? What about getting away with YOU and seeing what it's like with YOU, away from it all?
Yes, I agree, there needs to be more of this and now that you've mentioned it, I think there will be real efforts in the future to have moments like this.
Now, to be fair, from what I can gather, she uses this alone time to just to BE. She opens up a few beers, listens to some depressing music and watches lifetime tv and mulls over her life and the mess it has become. Truthfully, I feel she needs this time. Also, she does use it to get away from the pressure that I can sometimes bring. Its either that or she's just boffing OM the whole time...who knows. But, you are absolutely correct....I think next time (or maybe even today) I will make that effort the get away to some hotel just for a day or two.
I'll respond in fuller detail to your other musings soon. Thanks again so much for your input!
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
Quote: Truthfully, I feel she needs this time. Also, she does use it to get away from the pressure that I can sometimes bring.
Um, if you bring so much pressure that she needs to get away from you, then that's not good. I know you are already working on "you" stuff but this needs extra work. This kind of thing, your putting pressure on her and the motivation behind it would be a PERFECT thing for a therapist to look into with you. Please, take the plunge!
Yeah, well, that's the thing too....I don't think I bring all that much pressure.... I dunno....this only adds to my confusion.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
Quote: Yeah, well, that's the thing too....I don't think I bring all that much pressure
Oh, it sounded like you were understanding of her need to get away becuase the pressure YOU knew you put on her. What does she say you do to put pressure on her?
Well, there are moments, no doubt. I rant and rave and gnash my teeth, but for the most part, I'm not an ogre :-) I guess she feels it essential to try and collect her thoughts and I support that. Despite her paying lip service to reconciling the M, I don't think she's been able to completely tap the source of her unhappiness. Also, I think her confusion is aided by virtue of the fact that her and OM still work together. They see each other as "fruit of the forbidden tree". That's a hard feeling to overcome. I'm convinced that no reconciliation is truly going to occur until there is absolutely no contact. JMHO.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
I'm still here perusing the boards and trying to keep up with everyone's sitch. As for my story, things do seem to improving to some degree, but (and there's always that but) still not near where they should be I suppose. In actuality, I've found myself thinking about a lot of things differently these days and finding that while I'm not completely happy with the way things are today and maybe even tomorrw, I will accept them because they sure are a lot happier than they were six months ago. There has been closeness between my W and I, but we still havent' reached the point yet where she is comfortable with talking about making changes or addressing the issues that led to the A in the first place. All in good time I suppose...in the meantime, I still work to better myself.
Actually, the reason I post today is to hopefully gain some perspectives on a somewhat unique situation I am facing in my relationship (at least I believe it's unique). In the past, I have mentioned that my W is unhappy and down, and I attribute much of this to the fact that she is dealing with so many issues stemming from the EA, whether its confusion, guilt or a combination of both...there is no doubt that she is down. Surely depression is common among WAS', but my W's depression has manifested itself in a way that seriously has me concerned for her.
Let me explain....before I met my W and when she was a teenager, she was aneroxic/bulimic. Obviously, there are some deep seeded issues that contribute to such a disorder and I don't think these were ever fully explored with her. The point being, by the time I met her, she had moved beyond these disorders and was rather normal about her eating habits, although she fussed about her weight and still had a very negative body image and very low self-esteem. In short order, we found ourselves pregnant with D10 and, again, while she still had a negative body image, she never went to any great lengths to shed the weight and so forth. In fact, in all the years I've known her, this was never an issue, although she always felt as though she was overweight, etc.
Since the time that things have gone awry in our R, my W has dropped weight to an alarming degree. Today, she is 5 foot 6 inches and weighs a mere 98lbs. She doesn't eat any meals and only snacks on low fat, low calorie items (e.g., pretzel sticks). She is overly concerned with calories and fat intake. Sadly, she still thinks she isn't quite "there" yet in terms of weight, but from what I can gather she is "okay" with where she is at. She refuses to seek help because it likely would require her to take medication which, you guessed it, would likely cause her to gain weight. I know that typically eating disorders are a manifestation of an underlying personality disorder characterized by issues of control and perfection, and that the thing she is going through is the impetus for the weight loss (i.e., the only "thing" she has control of in this world of hers is weight loss...striving for a "perfect" body image that is unattainable).
The fact is, I am concerned for her, but as far as I know, she is maintaining the weight she is currently at, she just looks so damn frail. I want her to be happy and healthy and many days I wonder if I'm in the way of that...although she has told me that she couldn't be happy without me and our D's. I really just don't know what to do....I have told her that I am concerned. I had a talk with her last night and expressed these things to her....I told her that I loved her with everything I have and that I only want her to be happy and healthy. I told her that I was concerned about her obsession with weight loss (I didn't state in these terms) and I really felt that for her sake, she should seek the help of a professional. This is a really touchy subject for her and I only wanted to state my opinion and move on from it. The point is, I know that she is unlikely to do anything about it. She acknowledges that she is a "mess" but won't take steps to improve her quality of life. In turn, I am so confused as to what the right approach is.
sorry for the rambling, but these things are at the forefront of my thoughts today. I suppose I am gonna have to seek out professional help for guidance (I wonder if Dr. Phil is available ), but I wanted to see if anyone else is also experiencing the same sort of things.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
I swear Rob, I don't make this stuff up to make you feel better, or like you're not alone. I swear our wives ARE the same people because my W has the same issues, and they've gotten worse since all this started.
My W actually has a little different problem in that she's actually gained a bit of weight since she lost her personal trainer ( ) and she is extremely unhappy about it. Add that to all the other unhappiness she has going on and it makes for some serious depression which, you guessed it, my W refuses to see anyone about.
I don't know what to tell you. The subject is taboo around my house too. I still manage to get across my concern for her but anything past that and she openly resists.
This also brings up the issue that was discussed last week about our W's not valuing or listening to our opinion of them. I KNOW it's not that easy, but as people/men, I think them not just agreeing with us when we tell them how great they look makes us feel like they don't respect our opinions. Add to that little hurt, the fact that during the peak of the affair, my W's self esteem was at an all-time high and so was her physical condition. Now that the A is semi-over, she is back to complaining 24/7 about her body and is not going to the gym anymore. Again, for me, I KNOW it's not about this but it just feels like OM "did it for her" in terms making her feel better about herself and now that she's "with me" again, she feels worse again. I tell her she looks great, give her specific compliments, validate, everything and still she seems to not give a damn what I think or say. Irrational, I KNOW, but I do feel that way sometimes. I know it's all about how THEY feel about themselves but I know for me, if my W said I looked good, it would mean something but that's me, not her and to expect her to act like I would is unrealistic and not helping I suppose. Anyway, we had this whole complicated conversation last week around here and probably don't need to revisit it today.
Like I said, I can't help you much other than to say you're not alone in what you are feeling. I can only hope that with a more stable marriage and validating husband, my (and yours) W will be able to begin to see herself in a better light. I know I cannot force that on her, nor do I want to.
), but I wanted to see if anyone else is also experiencing the same sort of things.