Quote: The only thing I can tell you Frank is that I have found a couple things that seem to be working with my W, similar to your W's hair brushing, and as I continue to do these things, unasked, she seems to be warming up to me. I guess, try to identify the little things that give your W small moments of passionate feeling and build on those.
GH
Yes, it does seem to help - a little. I agree with the 'why do WE have to be the ones doing it all and they do nothing' but that's why this all happened - in their minds. I'm all for saving the marriage but a little help would be nice. How can I feel like I'm saving it when I see a 'partner' who isn't much of a partner in this right not. Is this the way she will always be?
Ok, so identifying the 'little things' like brushing hair is nice and doing things without being asked - also good. I'm finding that I just don't like doing some of these things all the time. Especially when I get nothing for me.
Still running my life having to fill my own cup all the time, and fill hers.
I'll catch up on your sitch and hopefully get some new perspectives!
Thank you for saying to Frank what I just simply couldn't.
Amy
Why couldn't you? Don't get soft on me.
Okay. Your wife is nowhere near out of her MLC, Frank. She just got scared of actually having to move out & do things on her own. So she said the right words... And because of the hope that her words gave you, you backed off from detaching and now you are catering to her. You getting up from reading last night to go make sure she wan't offended is a prime example. That was just ridiculous. IMO her response to YOU was RUDE. You are following her around like a dog that someone MIGHT turn around and pet. YOU are doing all the work and your wife is an unappreciative, spoiled brat. She's not trying to save the marriage. She's biding her time.
Quote: Your wife is nowhere near out of her MLC, Frank. She just got scared of actually having to move out & do things on her own. So she said the right words...
I have been thinking the same thing. My intuitive side has been nagging me that something isn't right - this was too sudden. But I've been hoping...
Quote: And because of the hope that her words gave you, you backed off from detaching and now you are catering to her. You getting up from reading last night to go make sure she wan't offended is a prime example. That was just ridiculous. IMO her response to YOU was RUDE. You are following her around like a dog that someone MIGHT turn around and pet. YOU are doing all the work and your wife is an unappreciative, spoiled brat.
That's part of what I've been saying - I'm trying TOO HARD and it comes across as needy. And yes, she does seem to be unapprociative and spoiled. After all, she can go off and have an affair, scream 'Divorce Divorce! Freedom! Find my path!" and then when she GETS it after affair fails she says what she has to to 'fix it' so she can say she 'tried'. At least that is what it looks like to me.
Quote: She's not trying to save the marriage. She's biding her time.
Do you think she has NO intention of saving it or is half heartedely trying? She has done a few things that seem to indicate she is making an attempt - however feeble. Got a book on relationships, sometimes she does flirt with me, or hug me on her own.
Since her big issues were not "I can't live on my own" but were more "I won't see the kids every night" when I said she was welcome to move out then I'm not sure what she is biding time FOR. That's never going to change if she divorces me so there is no point in putting it off. Instead, she should have played hardball on getting money out of the house (which I OFFERED her anyway).
And it wasn't like she just 'sat down' and said "I want to make this work", she was very humble and dramatic about it which for her indicates there was some real feelings behind it. But then, they could be fear.
I think I made a mistake by believing her and immediatly putting forward the effort. I should have stayed where I was and made it clear she had to win me back.
WHat do you think I should be doing right now?
I"m seeing Counselor tomorrow and I'll bring this up again. Her last bit of advice was to play hard to get, don't be so accomodating. Make her think I'm not that easy to win back. I think we'll talk about this and then she will see W on Thursday in individual.
Oh, here's something interesting. The other day D15 dropped her boyfriend (15 yrs old) and is now dating a 17 year old geek. Now, up until this BF15 was always over the house, or she was over there. But now it's the 'la la land' feelings she is chasing (again). This is part of being a teenager and W and I were talking about it. W said she did similar stuff at that age because the 'IN LOVE' feeling was exciting.
So, I said "Yeah, but that only lasts for a few months, then you have to actually deal with being in a real relationship" and W agreed with me. Interesting.
I almost want to say the her "Hey, this isn't going to work. You don't want to try because of yout fears and I don't really like you any more like that. I wanted a woman who lived with some passion too and you just don't. You expect someone else to do it for you. Well go find those 'someone elses' and after the newness of each one wears off see where you're left.
What's really tough is the sublte message it sends D10. She sees some of the 'flirting' and I know it makes her hopeful. She'll get hurt the most.
So much for a saved marriage...sigh. At least the things she keeps doing make me want her less and less. But it doesn't make it hurt less, it just makes me want to get away from her.
I've paid my dues. Our life and stability is 100% better than it was, the kids have a better relationship with me and I'm much more aware of how the things I do influence them and W.
The past had its problems but it wasn't 100% hell, it was actually very good, very often. So I'm no longer going to accept crap for it any more. I've earned that.
I think also that I'm going to give her a hug or a kiss WHENEVER I FEEL LIKE IT. Often. I like to. It feels good to ME. EVen if she is a 'board' at the time. Her Love Language is 'touching' so I'll touch her, with the expectation that she doesn't really want it but I'm going to GIVE it because I WANT TO.
Quote: WHat do you think I should be doing right now?
I"m seeing Counselor tomorrow and I'll bring this up again. Her last bit of advice was to play hard to get, don't be so accomodating. Make her think I'm not that easy to win back. I think we'll talk about this and then she will see W on Thursday in individual.
I think SHE should have to win YOU back somewhat, too, Frank. She's the one who had an affair. And yes, you have more than atoned for your past.
My thought is that you should detach. And stay that way til she puts forth some real effort. Using more than dramatic words. She needs to be sweeping YOU off YOUR feet.
Quote: My thought is that you should detach. And stay that way til she puts forth some real effort. Using more than dramatic words. She needs to be sweeping YOU off YOUR feet.
Ok, this is a different kind of 'detach' than totally ignoring her. WHat do you think it 'looks like'?
Quote: I would say do exactly what you were doing before her big dramatic talk with you that Thursday night.
You were getting used to her not being there and making her get used to you not being her "best friend" (read: doormat).
That seems extreme but probably realistic. I thought that just expressing myself, when I want to kiss or hug her. might be a way to get some change.
I think it's more of a balance. Don't show affection, but don't be totally available either, like I was before except not be SO detached I don't even talk to her.
Ok, W just called me. SHe's at the 'Hawaiian Massage' friends house, the people who put on the retreats where she met OM. To refresh your memory, they like her a lot, knew she had problems with our marriage and were very much against her pursuing OM because it was wrong, and they thought he was a total loser. I see them as very nice, not perfect and a reasonably realistic view of life and spirituality. And they like me and see I am a good person.
During the months of OM she didn't talk to them about us or him because she knew they wouldn't approve.
Today she is taking care of their 18 month old son so she went to go pick him up. Apparently they had a talk about our issues this morning. When she was leaving our house she just yells upstairs 'bye frank' in her 'neutral' voice and I reacted. I went downstairs and sarcastically said "BYE W". I just think her attitude is very impersonal.
Anyway, she got mad right then and said I was being 'passive aggressive' (I was) and I said I just feel like she doesn't really care but I was echoing her attitude. Well we couldn't talk because of the time, so she left.
I think her friends must have talked to her about this situation, and her relationship building because she wouldn't have thought of discussing it on her own.
Anyway, she called me from their house, actually while on a walk with their child, and said a lot of things, which I responded to. Basically here are the points:
- She thinks we are both not trying to make this work. And that if we ARE going to make it work we have to both actually make the effort.
- She asked what it is that stops me from putting in the effort
- I told her that when I DO put in the effort, I get very little in response. She asks if the reason I do anything is to get something in return? I said 'no', but I usually get rejection as a response.
- She recognized that she isn't making an effort and has fears. So we talk about that. She says her fear is that she'll make the investment in our relationship, trying to do all the things we used to do but do them 'right', and it'll just be a failure because of old behaviours that will slowly creep in.
- I told her that I have a fear that she will just try half heartedly and I'll get hurt again because she'd just go run off with someone else. I reminded her that my hurt is fresh in my mind still.
- I told her that I also feel like I'm constantly being judged, and that I'm being expected to make all these things happen with no help. But most of all that I'm going to say or do something NOW that makes her think that when tough times come again that I'll go back to taking my 'medicine' (drinking) so I can feel better. I'm not going to do that, I said, because I want the rest of the years ahead of me to be filled with the things that really matter to me, not pleasing others. I went on to talk about the time I spend with my daughters that I didn't do before.
She says she wants that too. She's very afraid it will go 'bad' again and then she's older, and she can't live like that again, she can't be hurt any more.
And I mentioned our trip last week to the snow. We didn't have any fights between us all and it was just pleasant. I had FUN. I hadn't had fun in so long I forgot what it's like.
I said that the only thing that was missing from our sledding experience was that I couldn't grab her and roll in the snow with her and laugh with her.
I mentioned that one of the things that was always great was when she and I would just go places together. We would talk about our interests, our dreams and just have fun. No sex, just being best friends. I missed that.
She did too. So where we're at NOW is wondering how we can 'get started'. How we can stop witholding from each other. We're going to talk later about this. I'm glad (and surprised) that she talked to her 'sane' friends.
At least it's in the open now. She says she wants to make it work still. What to do next, well, I still don't know.
