Happy, what a tough sitch you are in. They guys have given you good, logical advice. Here's a woman's take:
I agree: go to therapy. But here's the diff: you should first go by yourself. And tell your W that you are going by yourself because you feel that you have not been sympathetic enough with her, and have not been able to understand her and where she has come from. You are going by yourself to learn how to care for her more and how to love her more in a way that she will find meaningful.
Tell her that at some point down the road, you may invite her to come with you TO HELP YOU.
And then go.
She is one very troubled person. That thing about eating in her room alone-- yikes. I can feel the self-loathing from here.
And every time you say or imply that YOU came from a loving and stable home and all YOU want to do is establish that because it's BETTER than where she came from, her self-loathing increases exponentially. I'm not saying that you're wrong; you're right. She knows you're right. She doesn't need to be reminded that you're right. God, she is hurting sooo bad. She feels your judgment cutting through her like a knife. And when you say you CAN'T understand her-- well that's why you should go to therapy, to LEARN to understand her. She's your W, your flesh and blood, your soulmate, partner in life... if she can't share her pain with you, who can she share it with?
Yes her life was bad, and we wouldn't wish it on anyone, but it made her the woman you fell in love with. She has tremendous survival skills that drew to her a man who can give her the life she probably craved all of her childhood and beyond.
Yeah, on the surface she expresses contempt for it, because if she agrees that that is what she wants, her contempt for herself will go off the chart. What she needs is a way to be Herself and to be the Partner you want (and the Partner she wants to be) AT THE SAME TIME.
I remember one time feeding a stray cat on my porch. That cat was so hungry, he came to the food bowl and was just gobbling down the food. I petted him while he was eating, and he growled as he swallowed the food. That's how I see her. She wants to accept what you are offering without totally erasing and invalidating herself. She growls to protect her identity and to fend off your judgment.
Since you're the one who's posting, I'm saying to you to stop pushing and start trying to understand and accept her. And you will certainly need outside help to do this. That's my advice.
What do you like about your wife? What was it like in those early days, when you were dating?
Wow, Corri.. where do I start? There are so many reasons..
I loved her independance, I loved the fact that despite all the adversity she had gone through, she was so dedicated, religious and grounded. I loved that she didn't need family close by and that she was comfortable with herself on her own (I am divorced and in my first marriage had a lot of problems with meddling in-laws so this was a huge plus for me) I loved that she didn't view me as a defective for being divorced. She felt that our past made us who we are and she never judged me for being a divorced guy. She also loved my two, then very young kids and the kids loved her. I loved her beauty, her job, I loved that while she had standards and morals, when it came to the two of us and our intimate time together, she was... alot of fun! Very into intamcy, very much wanting to please.. said she expected to initiate way more than I even would (seemed hard to believe!)
My ex-wife had been abused as a child, came to grips with that during our marriage and that sent her into a deep depression that killed all desire. So even the first marriage had deep sexual problems. So when I met my current wife and saw how willing she was to take care of me in that department.. I was all over it. But the sex wasn't like THE issue, it was just one of the MANY things that I loved.
Sooo, Cory.. I answered Ze question, what is the theory?
Lil, I just finished 3 months of counseling on my own. My wife knew I was going, but she insisted while I was there that I work on improving myself. She got angry at the thought of us spending our time speculating about her. The counselor helped me alot at first and then in later sessions all he could do was wig out at the thought that my wife wouldn't want to see him (I guess counselors cannot comprehend people that don;t find them valuable). He'd spend the whole session just asking about her and why she wouldn't come. He became obsessed with the whole idea and I couldn't pull him off of it. I finally got annoyed by spending $60 an hour to just have him puzzle over why my wife wouldn't come with me. I wanted real answers as to how to deal with her, and his only real answer seemed to be "get her here" which at the time wasn't an option. So I stopped going. I am now looking into finding a female counselor in the area. I just can't see my wife opening up to a male, and definately not to the one I was seeing!!! So I am exploring options.
Without getting too involved, I see your R an extreme version of my own. I came from a very structured family, saying grace at the dinner table, blah blah despite probably more classical dysfunction than yours. X only child of single mom in broken home life. Also independent and witnessing “normal” family life was noticeably uncomfortable for her IMO.
First. Her comment on how can she expect to build a family foundation when she had none.
Well. Hers is no foundation. A vacuum. You had a pretty healthy one. Hence, any foundation, if not detrimental, will be suited to fill the vacuum. So let’s go with yours for now, eh? People with no idea of foundation are usually the ones we see on the news. Who go away to Cancun for 3 weeks while the 7 year old is home taking care of the 3 year old. IMO that would be the “middle ground” for the 2 of you in your sitch. Not good obviously.
Next. Kinda popped in my head for some reason, but this has some semblance to GB Shaw’s 1913 play Pygmalion; where the wealthy Henry Higgins bets he can change Eliza Doolittle from a cockney underclass girl to an belle of high society. Of course, he pushes and pushes and she rebels, runs away, and marries an idiot. It’s not who she is.
Not to say there is any merit to the comparison; just saying your polar differences mirror the story and you really have to not push or make her feel like she needs to change from who she was at the start of your R. Otherwise IMO she will leave you for another M closer to her idea of what her view of family is.
Frankly, if I were to guess at what kind of M she would identify with through similar “family” backgrounds he would either be freshly paroled from prison or in and out of an alcohol, heroin or method addiction. I don’t think she really wants somebody like that to bond with because he “understands where I’m coming from.”Yes, you’re a catch IMO.
Next. She needs an individual counselor sooner than later. Hopefully an MC or C will connect with her and she might agree to see her/him individually to sort out her FOO hang-ups.
Your W’s self-esteem is zero. She doesn’t want to see you with your family or calling them because she feels like an alien. Part of her feels jealous. Part of her is really hurting and wants to cry that she was denied this. Hence her hard shell/wall where she defends her wounded fragile interior with harsh words; ie, ridiculous hugs to you, calling your parents, having them over, stupid sex etc. The latter comment tells me there is a more than even chance there is some kind of S abuse in her past. But you mentioned this suspicion before I believe.
Again, I have had to deal with many of these issues I have just mentioned with x, just not as severe. But I saw and heard her spoken/unspoken reactions to my interaction with my family as she had basically none.
Lots and lots of baggage there, HG. And you have to make it clear you don’t want her to change one bit. You fell in love with her for who she was and is. And vice versa. You don’t expect her to want you to change who you are and you started this R with certain beliefs and she can’t expect you to change them after 8 years...esp. since she acted one way at the beginning of R and a lot differently now.
But she has to want to get rid of the self-loathing she definitely is having. For the kids’ sake if no one else.
Try and get her to forget about both of your FOO differences, ie the negatives…throw them out. And concentrate on the positives. H, W, kids, home, sharing and support. All that other crap is history from both of your single years. Doesn’t matter anymore who was raised by Ward and June Cleaver and who ate out of dumpsters.
Anything besides that is an unfair comparison and wallowing in “woe is me” self-pity. The past is just that—past. Can’t control it. Done. Makes you miss the present. And also forget about the future. Can’t control that either. Pointless.
Her comments from your post:
She also doesn't know how we can continue to be married when we have such different pasts and no common base in what we consider to be family. She gets so frustrated with me and keeps saying "just try to see things from my point of view here".
- Again, I don’t remember any vows including, “Do you promise to have, hold, and keep him/her from this day “backwards”? Ummmm, that would be no. And I am not Bsing you on this, but I have an tall blond/blue eyed M friend who is currently married to an French-speaking African pygmy whose hut-living family previously never left the jungle of equatorial Africa. And they have 4 kids. So let’s talk about vastly different “pasts,” shall we?
Considering when she saw snow for the first time she thought it was the devil sending his demons to attack them I'm gonna guess they have some diferent ideas on how to raise the family as well without going out too farr on the limb of that banyan tree.
Let’s just remain true to the people we are and learn to focus on the other person’s needs primarily and less on our own selfish agendas (and, yes, a regular sex life isn’t asking too much).
Let’s lose our pointless ancient history unwillingness not to cast aside single life remembrances for healthy nuclear family growth and kids who will grow up avoiding nasty dysfunctional FOO issues of their own.
Makes life so much easier and bearable for everyone.
-Stigmata-
The difference between a warrior and an ordinary man is the warrior views everything as a challenge; the ordinary man views everything as either a blessing or a curse.
-Yaqui shaman Don Juan-
...and that holds 2x true for nice guy wussies, DJ
So everything you talked about in the things you liked about your wife... I noticed that intimacy was mentioned in with a whole bunch of other things, and at the end...
So... aside from the intimacy issue... (try to be objective, I know its hard when you are mad), do you still feel those things about your wife? Or has that changed too? Are things basically the same as when you met EXCEPT for the intimacy?
