That's exactly how I see things too. But I'm not quite so fatalistic about the outcome. I am willing to bet that part of the reason the success rate is so low is that most of the people here are not in counseling. Trying to work through your own issues by yourself is very difficult and slow. If the spouse is not getting some type of feedback (on a board like this or in counseling), but only hearing what s/he should do from her spouse, I think it safe to say NO progress will be made there.
What I see from this board is that a lot of folks here have not taken the lessons to heart, faced the hard choices and implemented the changes needed to advance their relationship. I am hoping the veterans might have seen some of the successes come about and can tell us how that happened, and what it is in their situation that differed from those successes to keep them and others from moving forward.
By definition, you're not going to counseling unless you are "both admitting there's a problem, and both willing to work at it," so my point holds.
And I'm sorry, but I've seen a LOT of poor souls on here do YEOMAN'S work, over months and months and months, and end up with nothing other than their own side-benefits of their "GAL" efforts. I'm not going to name names, but we all know who they are, and you can't for a moment say that they "didn't face the hard choices."
Choc., who adds that "past performance doesn't necessarily guarantee future results . . . but it's a pretty danmed good indicator."
There have been a lot of successes on this BB. I may be leaving some folks out but I would say that the NOPs, Julie & Hubby, HP & Hubby, SuperDave, IHJ & Hubby, GEL & Hubby (recent achievement- fingers crossed), me and my Hubby have all found success at least in part due to what we learned on this BB.
The thing I've discovered about the Schnarch and related techniques is that they become easier and more internalized the more you apply them. At first, it is as though you are hitting your spouse over the head with a 2x4 and they respond in kind. Eventually, it's more like you are just giving them a bit of a nudge.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I agree that BOTH partners need to go to counseling. Just one will not do the trick and will only result in GAL. But that is where people are committing a grave error I think. No effort should be held back in getting the spouse into counseling.
Lil's post on the Stockholm Syndrome talks about this. Recall how many people find it easier to placate the spouse (i.e., not push for joint counseling) in order to maintain peace in the home? But really they are just trying to protect themselves. The hard choice is to force the spouse into counseling any way possible, to set consequences if they don’t go. Few want to be this hard.
Cobra, I agree with basically everything you've written, but I just want to comment on a couple of things. You said
Quote: The hard choice is to force the spouse into counseling any way possible, to set consequences if they don’t go.
My bf and I have been to two therapists as a couple; I've been to four others on my own since I met him; and he's currently seeing a therapist every week. All of these have been good counselors. And bf and I are both willing to work... but it's like the movies about an alcoholic or addict. The movie ends on the triumphant note where the guy (or gal) finally admits they have a problem and checks into rehab or goes to their first AA meeting... tears all around, cue the credits, lights up. However, this is where the work really begins. Now the addict has to face the rest of their life without their substance of choice. Remember also that GEL and her H were in counseling for two years and he was lying the whole time.
Counseling is good. Counseling is necessary. Especially if both people go, but it is also good if only one person goes. Counseling is the beginning of the journey, not the end. (I know you weren't saying that, just wanted to emphasize.) Also once you go, you have to keep going. So you get your spouse to go, they go a couple of times and say "it isn't working," and quit. Counseling is good, and NECESSARY, but not the Holy Grail.
Which brings me to my next point: even if one person goes, it can upset the apple cart enough to force a change in the R. (This directed to choc's point, and believe me, guy, I do get your point... even the "successes" on the board sound more like settling, getting used to doing with less, or else they were accomplished practically with bloodshed ). But I do believe that when one person really gets their sh*t together, it will totally change the dynamics of the R for good or for ill... but ultimately for CHANGE. When one person truly changes, the R has to change, one way or another. That's the crucible that Schnarch speaks of... getting out of your comfort zone and turning up the heat.
Ultimately, getting okay with the R may mean settling for less or getting out.
I do agree with what you’re saying as well. I guess when I made those comments to Choc, I was thinking more along the lines that a situation would already have to be close to needing a last resort type of effort. Most of us, including myself, will take things in steps, gradually turning up the pressure since we don’t really know what it will take to push our spouse off center and get him/her working on their issues. Taking too big a of a step risks overstepping and applying more pressure than needed, possibly creating even bigger problems.
So going to counseling by oneself may be enough to get things moving. But maybe it isn’t. I think the size of the “push” needed is directly related to the amount of dysfunction and work needed to be done. If your spouse is truly psychotic, no amount of self counseling (or “pushing”) will get them to budge. That is why the courts allow you to commit your spouse for a certain period of time. It is for their own good and safety and the safety of others. That is an extreme example.
But once you know a certain level of strong medicine is needed, I think it should be given. Otherwise, as you say, you need to just get comfortable with what you have, or get out. Since so many here have not decided to give the medicine, but have also not decided to get out, I assume they are just trying to find a way to rationalize getting comfortable with their misery. I won’t do this.
I’ve seen you pose this question several times, even in some of the old Schnarch threads from 2-3 years ago. Schnarch has several examples of women with little or NO desire turning their marriage around and having a loving relationship. Do you really want an answer to this question? What will you do if you find it? Come up with something other reason why you can’t get together with your wife? Why don’t you take Corri up on her proposal. Are ya SKEERED?
Quote: Please list a success where the women was no desire and her desire returned. Mrs. Nops has already admitted that she STILL does not desire.
There are a lot of women on this BB who have described themselves as being previously LD or LD in relationships othe than the one they are currently in who now describe themselves as being HD. However, I really think this is besides the point in terms of what needs to happen for your sich to improve.
I thought of you the other day, CeMar, when my H and I had the following conversation.
H: Why do you sometimes cook things I really like for dinner and then never cook them again.
M: I do try to cook things you like again. Sometimes you really like something the first time I make it and then you don't like it as well when I make it again.
H: That is probably because I know you made it with more love the first time.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I read the book twice and I don't remember any of the women being a true ND (like my wife). Even the one that had no desire really had desire but had other issues. I just don't remember him discussing a women that really has 0 desire.
). But I do believe that when one person really gets their sh*t together, it will totally change the dynamics of the R for good or for ill... but ultimately for CHANGE. When one person truly changes, the R has to change, one way or another. That's the crucible that Schnarch speaks of... getting out of your comfort zone and turning up the heat.