Cobra, here is a thought I had regarding the Schnarch movement vs. SSM vs. other relationship discussed/utilized on this BB. I was reading a lot of different business and investment books this past fall and winter, which is a new thing for me even though I do own my own business. It occured to me that "Passionate Marriage" is sort of the "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" of relationship books. If you want to have a really hot, passionate sex life, you have to be willing to do the same kind of research and self-improvement and take the kinds of risks that someone would have to take if they wanted to be rich as opposed to just financially comfortable. That is why Schnarch isn't everyone's cup of tea. Many of the folks on this BB are just hoping to get a decent enough return on their sexual relationship investment that they won't be forced to survive on the occasional can of dented sexual cat food. Of course, this analogy is not perfect because Kiyosaki says that he believes that it may be impossible to become rich if you don't have a spouse who wants to be rich also.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
My wife does not make anything for me in the physical action department. ALL physical action in my relationship starts from me. I am the one that is doing all the baking.
Since so many here have not decided to give the medicine, but have also not decided to get out, I assume they are just trying to find a way to rationalize getting comfortable with their misery.
I know I can relate to this. It is very difficult to get to the mental place you need to be in order to 'give the medicine' and perhaps WAS's even prefer not to give the medicine, they just bolt instead. I know I am definitely guilty of rationalizing.
In my M, I would have actual desire just a few times a month and the rest of the time, I would only feel desire after arousal. I never really saw the need for change. I've seen the light only as a side note during the actual fallout of my M. But I guess I'd be classified as an LD who would like to make necessary changes to have a more loving, intimate R. There are many trust issues that need to be faced before this can happen. I'm assuming Schnarch addresses all this.
Something occured to me while I was re-reading this post. In general, what are the definitions of HD vs LD? I realize that will differ depending on opinion, but I'm just wondering what the general consensus is? I ask because even though I only actually desire H a few times a month, I'm not sure if that classifies me as LD or not because there are/were plenty of times when I'd rather just MB than be with H. So I guess that indicates desire, just not a desire for H? This is new territory for me and feels really odd to be discussing...
Last edited by heatherg; 04/17/0611:42 AM.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
I look at the LD/HD designation a few ways. Usually I just look at relationally. Are both partners happy with the amount of sexual contact? If not, one is is HD and one is LD within the R.
I also look at what is considered a healthy amount of sexual contact on the average (or even what has been shown to be clincally beneficial) - that is about 2x/week. That amount seems to lower people's disease risk, depression etc... More sex doesn't seem to lower it any more. So, if a person wants sex more than that amount I would consider them pretty HD. If someone wants it less I would consider them fairly LD.
Mostly, I don't worry about the labels because they aren't that helpful except as a shorthand way to identify ourselves on this forum.
I agree that SSM, BD and even Harley’s books are much easier reads and meant more for the layman. I think Schnarch tried to do this too, since PM is the patient version of the Sexual Crucible (which I haven’t read yet). But like so many of the investment books on the market, trying to make a go of investing with only this “retail” approach can be dangerous. Unless an investor truly has a firm understanding of the financial markets and how they interrelate, from a global economic and political perspective, using one of the methods proposed in those books can be a hit or miss event. If the timing is just right, the method can work. Otherwise, look out. That is why a high percentage of investors lose money (something on the order of at least 70-80%).
Many people may only want to get their relationships fixed “just enough” to make things livable. But I think most of the regular posters on this board have been through all that, know that “just enough” is only a temporary situation, and that until significant work has been done, the problems will keep popping up. I think that may be why AtlDave and others took off with the Schnarch approach. I know that is what attracts me to his ideas.
Quote: In general, what are the definitions of HD vs LD? I realize that will differ depending on opinion, but I'm just wondering what the general consensus is? I ask because even though I only actually desire H a few times a month, I'm not sure if that classifies me as LD or not because there are/were plenty of times when I'd rather just MB than be with H. So I guess that indicates desire, just not a desire for H?
The way I'm looking at things now. The best way to define HD and LD is in terms of behavior, not relative or even objective level of physical hornyness. Under my definition, you were behaving as the LD spouse when you chose to MB rather than confront your sexual issues within the context of your relationship. Nearly all LD husbands do this. Of course, I realize as I'm typing this that nearly all HD husbands do this too. So, once again I'm back to my new theory that HD and LD are two sides of the same dysfunctional coin.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Cobra... Schnarch's book really was incredibly helpful to me...all that self-assertion and boundary setting really helped me define my goals and recognize how much was missing from my marriage. I do think that one of the main reasons I was able to progress so much is that I had reached a place where I was ready to leave the M. I guess my H sensed my seriousness and finally woke up.
So was it Schnarch's concepts and techniques, or was it that you had to threaten to leave the marriage?
I've never doubted that the latter works, but am still looking for successes with the former, whether it's SSM, PM, or whatever. Particularly sitches where only ONE partner is working at it.
I'm talking out loud here... not firmly convinced of what I'm saying here... but.
Quote:
So was it Schnarch's concepts and techniques, or was it that you had to threaten to leave the marriage?
I've never doubted that the latter works, but am still looking for successes with the former, whether it's SSM, PM, or whatever. Particularly sitches where only ONE partner is working at it.
I think before anyone starts a 'rehab' effort, whether that is on a personal level or a R level, before you begin, you must decide how far you are willing to go, how much you are willing to sacrifice to reach the goal, and identify, precisely, how you 'know' when you've reached the goal.
What I see lacking with you, but correct me if I am wrong, is the that your W has NO IDEA the EXTENT of your unhappiness. I am willing to bet you have no idea how unhappy SHE is.
When a person gets to the point that they are ready to walk away from a marriage, there is a 'no holds' barred approach to presenting the 'problem.' You become flat-out honest. Anger is gone. Your resentment is set aside. Any 'guilt' you may have felt for even considering leaving the R is set aside in favor of self-preservation. In the place of "I'm willing to leave," ALL illusion is lost, and 'reality' steps in. You may not WANT the D, you may have some 'glimmer' of hope the other S will come around... but, you look at the scene now with different eyes.
This is NOT a bad place to be, but most people fear it because it IS stepping to the edge of the abyss....
What I see lacking with you, which could very well be impacting any success you might hope to have... is that you are taking NO RISKS, neither on an emotional or physcial level. You are just venting. (Not a criticism)
Venting doesn't get you anywhere. Venting to you W doeesn't get you anywhere. She needs a no holds barred... "I'm ready to get out. Just so you know... when the kids leave the nest, so do I." Period.
That was a good post Corri. I think a lot of the people here like to vent but deep down they know they are not going to truly rock the boat of their M. Would never leave even if they were depressed to the point of suicidal ideation. That is F-ed up to me (now) but I'm also understanding of their position. I don't think I would have left my M either (not sure). It took my H truly sinking the ship for anything to truly change.
