I have searched these boards up & down for a situation similar to my own, aside from being in a M where as the woman, I am HD & my H, LD, I haven't had much luck. Though I have been lurking for a long time, I am new to posting. I have appreciated all the wonderful, candid stories & advice. I am hoping for some help.
It wasn't always this way.
A little background (probably lots of typos & grammar issues, but I don't have time to check, sorry). This will be long...
I am a 32 yo female, married 11 years to my H, 39 yo. Been together a total of almost 14 years. We met when I was 18. And though I was young, I had already lived a life rich with experiences far beyond my age, for someone my age. People felt I was very mature. I was just getting over my BF of 3 years. xBF & I lived together a yr, my first yr of college. The xBF and I were in the process of splitting. When I met H, we fell for each other fast and been one hell of a ride since then.
Sex was always very passionate, Very fulfilling & fairly frequent. I think we have always had a way of knowing what worked sexually for us. Great chemistry & no issues experimenting. However, for much of the first 5-7 years, husband had issues with porn. Hiding it. I had no issues other than what I have seen mentioned frequently, as long as he was forthright about having it, not having too much or using it too frequently (meaning as long as our SL didn't suffer as a result of him using it), I was ok with it. He lied & was busted pretty often. I even watched movies, looked at mags with him. I thought I was pretty cool. Being a young attractive gal (I have been told, not conceited), I was rather secure with most things. But, like most people, had moments where I felt less secure. I think, after looking back, because we had such great sex, my insecurities were not showing. Ask me about that now, and the story is very different.
Along the way, within our first yr of M, we had a son, who is now 10. After failed attempts of having another one, we finally had another son, now 3. And somehow while we were busy living life, things got off track.
January 2004, my H celebrated not only his 39th b-day and our 11th anniversary, but also his 2 year sobriety date. Yes, my H is a recovering alcoholic/addict (alcohol & pills). He made many failed attempts to quit along the way. Starting during my pregnancy. our youngest was a yr old before he hit bottom. H's drinking problem had gone undetected for so long. He started at 14 & was nearly every day until 36 yrs o). His dad owns a bar. H had a rough childhood where I suspect I don't know the beginning of all the bull he was put through by his sick step-dad. My H is a very athletic, handsome man. From outward appearances, one might say he seems a very confident, very attractive man. This is far from true in regards to his confidence. A lifetime of being put down, sheltered, mentally/physically, possibly sexually abused took him from confident child to lost man in a big world with no skills. His dad also had many, many A's on his mom & then on his 2nd wife, who was the OW. His story from age 8 on would make you just cry. When he was 14-15, he came back to live with Dad, who put his bar, his drinking, his women, his career, his new family ahead of him. H was allowed to run wild. When I met him, I was so young, but my nature is so motherly, I wanted to save him, and I did just that. We ran off to FL and started a new life together. He had never been on his own.
There hasn't been an affair, or physical violence. But, there was years & years of reckless behavior, immature acts, mismanagement of our money (which as primary breadwinner being myself, it has been a struggle seeing him blow it), cruel mental games, namecalling (both sides), let down after let down. Saying I am gonna change, only to do more of the same. It got really bad, lots of yelling, no communicating & so on. When I got pregnant with baby 2, we developed patterns of no S or ML. I had a high risk pregnancy for pre-term delivery, so for the last few months, he didn't come near me, which really hurt. I have always been real affectionate...this was new to me. We were both now angry & hurting.
We moved from another state to live near family after he hit bottom & got sober. We sold the big dream home we built & got rid of alot of debt when we moved, so the finances could be a lot less of a burden & we could have family nearby for support. My step-dad is also a recovering alcoholic, so we have that in common. I gained quite a bit of weight on bedrest during the pregnancy. The pain of all we were going thru kept me from being able to loose the weight like I wanted to. I stopped caring about myself, I had always been into my figure & looks. Now I was very depressed & sad. We went long periods without S. This mad me sadder. And H didn't want to talk about it at all. He took some anti-depression meds when first trying to quit. And that took his desire away. He came off the pills & the desire came back, somewhat. But, nothing like it had been. I knew he was having issues with my looks. But, honestly, I was so angry. I just wanted him to be into me, no matter what kind of issue I was having with weight. We got in lots of fights about frequency, lack of intimacy, no oral S & so on. We just got more mad, and got less of what I wanted, but didn't know how to get.
One night, since he has been sober, but about 18 months ago, when I was at my heaviest, I asked why no S or oral & he seamed hurt by the way I asked & he said that I needed to loose weight, get a tan & so on. I was so hurt that he put conditions on his love for me. This really put distance between us. Not what I wanted.
Since then, in the last 6 months, I have lost about 30 lbs. I am 5'1" tall & weigh 124. I was very tight bodied after baby 1, but I need to make the effort to loose tummy flab & tighten up. I am very insecure with my bod. It kept me, being a HD person all these years, from wanting S. I avoided it & he didn't want it, so we did it once every couple months & when we did, it was awesome. No oral S since before baby 2. And we are trying to talk about our SL & M, but he takes it all as an attack on his manhood. No issues with his equipment. This is the issue...
He claims that his interest has just dropped, alot. We do work alot, have 2 active boys (oldest is very involved with baseball & H is asst coach, plus S is involved with school) & since we are self-employed, we work at home, together. Money isn't as big of an issue. But, we had to give up a very promising real estate career because H couldn't work as an agent anymore since he had to drink to do it before. Our finances went from making lots, to just getting by on our bills, though is not bad. Our business is really building up & are lucky to be able to be with the kids all the time. He is a super daddy. I think much of his energy goes into them. He helps cook, clean & share in the responsibilites with the kids. In that dept, he is the ideal H. Problem for me is that I seem to come last in his schedule. By the end of the day (we work opposite schedules so we can work when kids are asleep or gone -- he works about 5:30-6am & up til about 10:30-11pm & I get up about 9am-10am & stay up until 4 am), he just can't keep his eyes open or be able to focus on talking, being intimate.
We go through spurts of great S for about a week or two, then none for a couple. I am fine with 1-2 times per week, though it would be daily, if I could have it my way. However, I know we have kids & realistically, I don't HAVE to have it more often. My problems with the SL are these things:
1) No romance. He no longer tries to be romantic. No dating. No going out, flirting, nothing.
2) His idea of foreplay & mine are him -- foreplay & sex equal 10-15 minutes ; me -- both equal about 40 minutes to an hour. At time, more. I want him to WANT to explore my body the way he did when he was drinking all those years. He used to rub me down, feel my body, work on pleasing me more intently, oral sex & so on. He says I must have been married to someone else cause he was never this way. He says he always didn't care for oral sex since he had a bad experience with a past girl and that he most likely won't get into it ever again. He said he also realizes that while the women's gentalia turns him on, and so does mine, since he has been sober, he isn't comfortable being up close & personal. The drinking took away his inhibitions. They must have because I remember he did all of that, and well. I tell him that had I not known what I was missing, I wouldn't miss it. He used to be eager to please, get kinda wild. In fact, while we both drank, S was incredible. Both uninhibited.
3) He says he doesn't need S like I do. Makes me feel unwanted, insecure.
4) I just want him to be the aggressor at times when unexpected, take me by surprise, send the kids to family, seduce me & then spend the night ML, all night. Not worrying about the kids, work or so on.
5) Talking about S seems to make him uncomfortable. This was never an issue before.
6) I want S not just in our shower or the bed, same positions, same foreplay etc. I want creativity. He lost this, but once had it.
Is it normal for a man to loose drive while he is learning about his true feelings, not being drunk to be sexual? He was very sexual before. Porn & all. It seems he dropped that for the most part too. Says MB isn't even appealing. He says he doesn't know how to be the man I talk about when our SL was good. I don't want him to drink again, so this subject is touchy. I know this isn't something that would make him drink, but my unhappiness in our SL has him feeling insecure and like no matter what he does, I won't be happy, but that isn't so. I am happy in every aspect of our M, but the SL makes me bitter, resentful, snappy... I want the initimacy. I want to feel wanted. I want him to want to please me the way I love to please him. Would it be reasonable to give him more time being comfortable with learning to be the more assertive, confident person that the alcohol brought out? How can I go about helping the process. MC isn't really something we can do at this time. I want him to be comfortable talking. He almost seems shameful when talking about S. He even goes to say I must be a sex crazed woman, that goes overboard. When really, I am not. Just 1 time of good S a week, would make mama happy. If he connected more to me emotionally (his dad taught him how to be insensitive & non-emotional ; his mom is very religious & I suspect this plays into his shyness about sex now and there might be sex abuse that he hasn't mentioned), flirted more throughout the days leading up to it (meaning emails, touches, WOA), more effort to be romantic & sexual.
When I have talked about this issue with him, his first response was a counter-attack (mine was just concern) attacking me personally, blaming me for being negative, not working out...of course, I am much more friendly when I am happy in & out of the bedroom. He says he doesn't know how to be that person, naturally. How do I help? Now he says he is in love with me, it is him, not me. Do I give time, give lots of praise, try my hardest not to be angry & by doing so, will he warm back up? Anything... At times, I feel so lonely. I am too young for time to rob me of what should be a comfortable time in my life for S with my husband, who despite all he put me through, I still love him deeply. I don't want to grow more angry inside, more alone & desperate. I want to share these things with him.
Anyone been in this situation, dealing with recovery? I would appreciate some insight in to something that might work.
Would you believe that this truly does have nothing to do with .....YOU? I want you to know that right off the bat. The comments he's made to you about losing weight, getting a tan etc....is him not dealing with his own crap. Oh and congrats on losing that 30lbs, I'm still working on my last 30 from my pregnancy
Also, I want to ask you some questions. How long during your R was he drinking heavily and taking pills? Was it the entire time, up until sobriety....you know from the beginning? If so, I'm wondering if those things were part of his losing his inhibitions and increased sexuality. That is sometimes the case with substance abusers, the drugs/alcohol allow them sometimes to feel more free about some things. Just kind of depends on what he was doing.
If this is the case, I can see how things might change once he quite doing the substances he'd been abusing. Also, many addicts do whatever substance they are doing....to avoid dealing with feelings. Feelings, pesky little buggers they are, can get in the way of many things. Once the abuser stops doing what they were doing.....depression can set in and feelings can become overwhelming. Has he had any type of counseling? Have you requested any?
FYI, my XH was an alcoholic. My current H isn't, but I do have experience with this. My XH also did occasionally do drugs when drinking, what exactly? I don't know...I just know that he did....at the minimum crank, mushrooms, pot....and I have no doubt other things as well. When he was abusing his sex drive was MUCH higher. When he attempted to quit using....his SD tanked, at least for awhile. I don't know if it went downhill compared to what it was for a long time or not, I didn't have it in me to stick around and find out back then.
One thing I'm curious about too....when you asked him about why no sex & no oral...you said he seemed hurt by how you asked. So....how did you ask? How have your conversations gone when you've tried to bring up the lack of sex? Do you ever initiate yourself? If so, what's his response to that?
Hang in there...you might just find out how alone in your situation....you truly aren't What it likely comes down to at this point is that he's got stuff HE'S not dealing with....but there could be other things as well. I'm sure there are other wiser people than myself on here who will have lots of good feedback for you.
Quote: Is it normal for a man to loose drive while he is learning about his true feelings, not being drunk to be sexual?
Absolutely yes. My bf is also a recovering alcoholic (sober for two years next month). (AND his mom owns a bar.) He is also extremely good looking and exudes masculine confidence, but that hides an insecure little boy. We've only been together 3.5 years, so there the resemblence to your sitch ends, plus he's 55 and I'm 57.
The sex was better in terms of emotional connection when he was drinkng, but not so good in physical "performance." He was fairly uninhibited (although still more inhibited than I), and we were just more sexually active (looking back, I realize that I initiated virtually all of the time). One time after we'd only been together a couple of months, we had this spectacular sexual encounter-- He was just a totally open book, pouring out all of the words I longed to hear... a steady stream of the most beautiful, emotional compliments, loving words, etc. and the next day he remembered NOT ONE WORD. It had been a total blackout. I asked him, "Was that you? Did you mean those things?" He said, "I was THERE, I just can't get BACK there." Alas, one wonders why I didn't walk out the door the next day.
Another message board for partners of recovering people is Friends & Family of Alcoholics. I used to post there when I was trying to understand the change in him after he stopped drinking. I'm with you-- I don't want him to go back to drinking; he's come a long way. But like your H, he is very reserved and even a bit of a prude. I had a thread on that board called "sex after he sobers up" and people told me, it would take at least a year for him to start to feel comfortable sexually (well, it's been TWO years, and he's in therapy, too... but then he also has ED to contend with-- a whole 'nother story).
I looked up that thread, and this is what one woman told me
Quote: when my H first dried out, sex was a whole different game. For the first time in YEARS, I wanted it but he didn't. I did some research and one of my sources (sorry, can't remember which one) indicated that it can take about a year for the associated depression and other physical effects to subside. I know it's difficult, but patience really does pay off. Keep the lines of communication open and spend as much time together as possible.
I disagree that you should not initiate sex. He may start to feel that you no longer desire him, deepening the depression. Here is where communication is vital. Be sure you let him know that when he is ready, you are willing. Let him know that you are trying to give him some space but miss intimacy with him. Initiate intimacy but perhaps not as frequently. I would say once a week would be reasonable but you and your partner have to decide what works best for you as a couple. Give him permission to decline your advances. Perhaps the two of you could devise a system of "signals". Or maybe a planned "date" would help. As fun as spontineity is, sometimes knowing what the future holds can fuel desire. It can also cause apprehension so the two of you will really have to work TOGETHER to find a compromise. Don't make the mistake of thinking you know what is on his mind or that he knows what your motives are. I can't say it enough ... talk it out. For me, there are few things more intimate than holding each other and just TALKING.
When they stop drinking, they're like a little baby chick who's just broken out of the shell. The protective coating that used to shield them from feelings, hurts, insecurity, is gone and everything is raw. Is your H in AA, or some kind of recovery program? As you know, here's "recovering" and there's "just not drinking," and they're not the same thing. My bf is 55 and until two years ago had probably NEVER had sesx sober. Now THAT is a sobering thought.
Don't know if any of this helps... I think there are some others on the board who have dealt with alcoholism.
"Would you believe that this truly does have nothing to do with .....YOU? I want you to know that right off the bat. The comments he's made to you about losing weight, getting a tan etc....is him not dealing with his own crap."
I "know" this, but convincing myself to actually "believe" this is quite another issue for me. My own insecurities interfere. I have become real good at blaming myself. Guess because I like analyze every little word and since he isn't accepting any blame, or when he does say it isn't me, he then follows up with a statement like I mentioned. So, conflicting words lead me to feel it is me.
"How long during your R was he drinking heavily and taking pills? Was it the entire time, up until sobriety....you know from the beginning?
Well, from the time I met him, he was a bartender, we were young & into the whole bar business until we got married & had a baby, so I just assumed his drinking was something we did because we were young & having fun. But, I know now it was much deeper than that for him. After the birth of our 1st son, we started selling real estate, which really pushed him to the point of no return. Selling homes that he felt he could never afford, dealing with sharp business men with loads of education intimidated him, making cold calls to find business was painful for him. He began drinking in the day to do these things. I didn't know this. I assumed he was just really good at it. Then I realized when he was sent home from the office from smelling like alcohol, stumbling & so on, we had a problem. This went on untilthe birth of our 2nd son, which our 1st son was almost 7 yrs old at this point. By that time, he got was drinking & driving, not going to appts, not working very hard. It was all me & making excuses for him was getting harder & harder. I know it began to affect our business. Though he could maintain composure in the day, by night time, when most of our appts were, he was pretty lit. He began hiding the drinking from me. He would show me he might have 4-6 beers over the course of the entire day, but I had no clue about the 40 ozs on the way to appts, the boxed wine he drank hot in the garage throughout the day. It got bad & he got careless, DUI...serious troubles & money issues because I couldn't afford to pay for it all, take care of the kids, a fat mortgage, cars & all.
The pills & other recreational drugs were only from time to time while at the bars working. Not a "problem" until the last year when I thought he was getting sober. He took herbal ecstasy, paxil....things legal, but the herbal ecstasy can make you mental, which it started to. It got kinda creepy. That is when he hit bottom. At this point the combo of pills kept him from wanting or being able to perform sexually.
"If so, I'm wondering if those things were part of his losing his inhibitions and increased sexuality."
Come to think of it, he was likely drinking whenever we had S. Like a false confidence. For so long I just assumed he was as sexual as me in the bedroom. Perhaps he did it to mask his own fears or issues with S.
"Has he had any type of counseling? Have you requested any?"
Since we are self employed & been on the verge of financial ruin, we haven't had the money to go. But, as we are getting more of a grip on things, this is something we plan to do. Both alone & together. We both have major issues. We are both happy in the marriage, just seems I am unhappy with the SL post sobriety. Seems unfair I know. But, I miss the initimacy. Maybe a counselor can help clear what is clouding his head, or his hangups about S. Maybe it is not even a S thing. Just self-esteem?
"One thing I'm curious about too....when you asked him about why no sex & no oral...you said he seemed hurt by how you asked. So....how did you ask? How have your conversations gone when you've tried to bring up the lack of sex? Do you ever initiate yourself? If so, what's his response to that?"
Well, at first I sent playful emails with little articles about it. He never said anything about them, so one night I playfully asked if he got them. He said yes, but he erased them. Didn't even read them because it wasn't something he was into doing. I let it go, but more time went by & I began to feel a little hurt. So, one night after S, in a soft, loving way asked if it were something I can do to change that. Maybe it was me. He got really snappy & said for me to stop hinting, stop asking, stop making remarks. It wasn't funny & he had no clue why I would think he wanted to do that. He had a bad experience with it with a girl once. He couldn't do it sober. Which I do realize at this point that he only did it while drinking. That doesn't change the fact that he was REALLY into it when he did it. Things he said indicated he liked it. The lack of OS had me searching online for answers. I went thru all the probable scenarios. Maybe the birth of our kids had something to do with it? After the fist son, OS wasn't an issue. Since the 2nd one, it has been. Only thing changed (aside from my body) is that he is now sober. I thought, hygiene? Not really, because I am very clean. I asked him about that, he said no, that wasn't it & I felt confident that wasn't the issue. No past lovers have mentioned that. I have been with women before, so I am know it can be one. I also know it would be hard to say something. I would never expect OS if I wasn't clean as a whistle, which I have had no complaints about in the past. I know that could change, but I don't feel it has. It just hurts. Just in case it was an issue and wanted to find ways to suggest or lead into OS, without pressuring him (only suggested once every few months), I told him that I planned taking a long bath together, then had strawberries, whipped cream (his fav) and some other flavorful things. I didn't mention OS. Before I could finish my sentence, he stormed out the room saying I just don't "get" it. By now, my ego was bruised, my heart, broken. I may have to face it, no OS for life. He told me he needed time. But, gosh, it seems like an eternity. Especially since lately he has really responded to me being the giver in OS. Which I LOVE doing. I never liked it much until the last year or so. Now that I am not too mad at him with drinking issues.
To answer if I initiate, well... I have always had to take the more dominate lead (since he became sober). If I don't, we won't. And I can't have that. I have hinted that I would LOVE more sexually forward actions from him. For him to just take control & seduce me. Maybe he just doesn't want to do that or fantasize about it. Maybe he wants to, but doesn't have the courage to do it. I don't know, but I miss that. He did it when we ewre drinking. Is that side gone forever? That makes me sad to think that.
Nothing like a man being a little dominate, wanting to do nothing more than please you, for as long as you want. I don't expect this every time, but once a month would be super. I don't like being the one to start it. I don't like being turned down. And I don't ask for S often. Most of the time, I just take a shower, freshen up, wear something cute but comfy & we sit there watching tv, me stewing. Or me wanting the kids to get to bed earlier, but he, even knowing I have showered & seem excited, he looks for reasons to let the kids stay up late enough so he can just zonk out.
Maybe I am too unrealistic. But, I miss the middle of the night steamy S where he woke me up to ML.
One thing I didn't think of, I do know that now that he is sober, he is worried that we might get pregnant again. And I worry too. We love our kids, but another one right now, with the cost of childcare & how hard it is to have time for them now, we would be crazy. We would handle it & be happy, but if we can avoid it, I am sure he will. I can't take BC because it makes me very ill. We don't like condoms because they just suck. So, maybe this hinders things as well. When we were drinking, we focused less on that. And we were trying for so long to have another baby, that we didn't worry. Now we worry, so this may hinder his desire? On top of the other issues?
Oh, I feel dumb for letting so petty hurt. Sex isn't the only important thing in my life. BUT, it sure does feel good. The EC is stronger then, for me. And when he drank, he would talk about us, be so sweet & romantic. So passionate. That man is gone. Or maybe just in hiding. If only he would come out, life would be perfect. See, my H takes my concern about this as me being unable to be pleased. He got clean, he is a good H & dad, he stopped doing much of what hurt our R (lying, porn) what more do I want?
To answer that, I just want to be loved. Entirely, without exception. For me, his lack of interest in S or OS is the exception. He loves me, but...
Lilliepearl, Thank you for responding. Your sitch is similar. I don't know why I didn't catch that before. I have enjoyed reading your posts.
"The sex was better in terms of emotional connection when he was drinkng, but not so good in physical "performance."
Both were better for us. No blackouts. He just says now he doesn't remember being the things I say he was, like romantic, creative, passionate, etc.
"But like your H, he is very reserved and even a bit of a prude. "
Yes, that is my H to the T. I do not know "this" man.
"Perhaps the two of you could devise a system of "signals". Or maybe a planned "date" would help."
We talked about this, but never followed through with it. Seems like a plan to me.
"When they stop drinking, they're like a little baby chick who's just broken out of the shell. The protective coating that used to shield them from feelings, hurts, insecurity, is gone and everything is raw."
This is so true. Gosh, I feel so self-centered.
Is your H in AA, or some kind of recovery program? As you know, here's "recovering" and there's "just not drinking," and they're not the same thing. My bf is 55 and until two years ago had probably NEVER had sesx sober. Now THAT is a sobering thought.
"He was in the program for a couple years. One leading up to his bottom and the first year following it. Our family is pretty much a big AA group, so we live it. He isn't actively doing the BB or meeting, but he is very much recovering, praying, living the way he needs to to stay sober. He is doing very well.
My H was just the same as your BF. It is a sobering thought. And sad. May be a long road ahead of us in regards to tapping into the root of the S hangups.
Unfortunately you have joined the ranks of quite a few HD wives with LD H's on this board. In your sitch, I am wondering if your H has had a good throrough physical checkup lately and maybe even had his testosterone checked? The years of addiction can take quite a toll.
Hi Karen,
Due to the fact he is very heathly by outward appearances, eats well, hits the gym, runs & shows no reason to go the the dr, convincing him to go because of LSD, would seem to add further insult IMO. How do I approach it? He seems to think I am the one with the S issue, not him. He thinks I am a nympho, which I am not. I just like intimacy with my H. He should be thrilled I love S with him, right?
We both need, but don't currently go to counseling. I read self-help books, take tests, get the info for him & he says he is too busy to read or too tired when he has the time. Again, our R comes last in this household.
Right there with ya. My H gives very little attention to the R and very little attention to me sexually either. He too, is healthy by outward appearances. How about starting counseling yourself at least for some support?
Re baseballmom He seems to think I am the one with the S issue, not him. He thinks I am a nympho, which I am not. I just like intimacy with my H. He should be thrilled I love S with him, right?
Your H sounds like a twin of my W. Just change the gender of the wording in your post and I might have written the post.
Just wanted to say Hi and it is common for posters to want to keep the R calm, not get the spouse bent out of shape, etc. Sometimes you have be very firm regardless of what you think the outcome will be. Maybe not now, but thinking "later" is a common mistake.
What it likely comes down to at this point is that he's got stuff HE'S not dealing with....but there could be other things as well. I'm sure there are other wiser people than myself on here who will have lots of good feedback for you.
Just change the gender of the wording in your post and I might have written the post.