Of course there is a relationship between NM and SO, they care about each other, have children together, are friends of some sort, etc... Of course there is a relationship between you and W.
There is also a relationship between annoying coworker and you — you are colleagues. Getting season tickets is trying to live in an R that doesn't exist.
Buying a pair of season tickets to something and offering to take SO or W is one thing. Buying the tickets so you have them to go with SO should SO return is another.
Imagine NM redoing a room to serve as SO's den (aka cave) when he returns home because it is still "their" home.... Over the line, suffocating... Can you imagine the unasked for emotional burden this would put on SO because he doesn't want to hurt NM further? Can you imagine how intrusive and presumptious he would feel such an action to be? Can you feel how invalidating it would be of his own pain and need for space? (Oh, I know you are being silly now, little SO. But when you quit being such a brat and grow up and see things like they really are, this nice new room will be all ready for you in your REAL home.) (GAG.)
Pretending that there is still an R in which you share your home and life together is trying to live in an R that doesn't exist. NM and SO are nowhere near where you and W are in terms of a long term committed R. Your W has chosen to pursue a long term committed R with you, SO has done no such thing with NM.
Now, to be clear, my post wasn't in response to anything NM has been doing. Nothing suggests to me that she is lapsing into annoying coworker mode, lol.
Rather, it was just to raise a red flag about the tempting idea of living in fantasy land in which you deny the very real emotional break that has occured in the M and the space and separateness required to deal with that break in a healthy way. This is how I would see it if NM were continuing to act like she was keeping "their" house together for them while SO was off having his midlife temper tantrum.
But, I see instead NM taking care of her own life, making her own home, and really extending sincere compassion and respect toward her SO, even through the very painful choices he is making in trying to find his way through the confusion of how to escape a life he found intolerable without losing that which he values most. That is SO's struggle. That is NM's struggle. Like I said in a post to you, LBSs and WASs really aren't so different.
Ok, so we were arguing semantics to a certain extent. I get your point, especially after reading your post to me.
Your definition of the paralell struggles is a great one, and one that defies the rigid thinking of "me good" "her evil" that so many of us fall into. There is only what she wants and what I want anymore, should the two be compatible then there may be a future, should they not be, then maybe not. As you said, my W and I (or NM and her SO) are not really that different in terms of where we are and what we need to decide.
OT, don't worry....I have no inclination right now to have him move back...sorry if it may have come across that way somehow.
I mean - of course, the ULTIMATE goal is for us to be back together, live together, and marriage....I know that we are no where near that point right now. Hell, we're no where near ANYTHING right now...just sorting out the confusion! There would be lots that would have to happen....A...then B, then C, all the way down to about...XYZ before we ever reached the moving back in stage!!! LOL One step at a time.
Right now, we're at the stage where he's got to decide what it is he wants. I have to live my life, without him in it, maybe never to be in it as a romantic partner again. If him living on his own, if you can call it that, is a productive means to the end, then it is something I can live with. And, if it turns out that it is THE END, then I've already passed some of the more difficult hurdles.
With him living on his own - he has no one to blame but himself for the things in his life. He can't use me as a scapegoat and I've seen how it's changed things overall. He takes more responsibility for the "bad" things that happen to him now. Before, "I" was in the way - I'm not in the way anymore and he has to look at himself.
OK - that part was written earlier today before I saw the next posts from GH & OldTimer.
Anyway....SO has never said he doesn't love me....my sitch, I think IS more about getting married, with a whole lot of MLC and childhood abandonment issues thrown in. SO has never stopped being in any kind of contact with me, wanting to ML; do family things with me. His very, very public job makes "cheating" practically impossible. I believe he told me about the A because I would have found out in any number of ways.
Add to this the fact that we have children without being married bothers both of us - very, very deeply. Our whole entire R seems to have happened backwards. And how we got here, 10 years later, with 3 kids without being married - I can't honestly say how it happened. Besides moving all around the country. When we finally settled here...it's been 5 years that we've lived in this area, things finally started to come together...we started seriously talking marriage, then something happened that made us start talking about another baby. Somehow we decided upon another baby...our oldest was almost 4 at the time and we didn't want to wait any longer. So we had #2. Putting off marriage again. Then we decided to buy a house....then baby #3 unexpectedly comes along. And...here we are today.
Neither one of had very good role models growing up. Both of our parents marriages ended in divorce...for 2 very different reasons. Mine, my father was an abusive alcoholic. My mother loved him despite it and I believe she only divorced him to be able to legally collect money from him to support us. Even after their divorce, they remained together, living together as husband & wife for about another 10 years.
SO - his mother blamed her pregnancy on the man she was with and got him to marry her. The result - SO. She ended up leaving about 7 years later, LEFT ALL 3 KIDS (my SO & his younger sis & bro) when she left to go have an affair with her sisters ex-husband. Literally left the young children, they were about 7, 5, and 3 when she left. I believe this has a lot to do with SO's marriage issues. Then as a teenager, SO found out the man he called his father wasn't his biological one...and so the impact from that was also devastating to him.
I don't know why I'm getting into all this. Not sure how it got brought on. lol
Anyway, back to the current day...my SO is so unsure of what he wants....he wants to get married, but is deathly afraid of it. So much that he automatically believes getting married equals divorce. I don't think he's ever learned how to work through problems. Not with his family, friends, me...running away seems to be his answer. And I think he's expected me to abandon him by now. And because I haven't, it confuses him even more. Instead, I'm trying to get to the root of the problems and find their solutions. And yes - sometimes I do the wrong things. I am struggling with what he wants from me....just like he's struggling with his own demons. And you're correct, OT, I'm not trying to maintain that we are still in a committed R - I am trying to let him go "BE" and work through this on his own.
I hope this makes sense. It may not have anything do with your replies, lol - I'm trying to respond while SO is outside...I'll have to come back and read over again later.
NM, please edit your post to remove my name, that was an accident. I'm trying to get my post fixed. I hope I don't have to have all my posts removed in order to do so, I'm checking...
Sorry OT, I didn't get back in time for your request. Anything else I should do?
Yesterday SO came over...I've been trying to distance as much as I can - i.e., not answering phone calls; getting out; being elusive - yesterday the morning started off with an email (after skipping his late night phone calls - I think there were about 4 of them) - "I know its a hard time for all of us. especially me. long story". I only replied with a Good morning and skipped asking any further details. He was coming over and I actually suggested to him that he didn't have to if he didn't want to. He took real offense, asking "Are you trying to get rid of me?" I told him I was only trying to be considerate of the limited time he has to himself and if he had things he needed to do, it would be fine if he skipped a day. I also asked him if he had any ideas about Easter, asking him to give me his suggestions by today or I'd be making my own plans. (Worded a little nicer than that.)
When he got here, he had brought lunch, so we ate. He asked if I heard something on his show and I hadn't. His response "That doesn't surprise me". I just looked at him and didn't say anything. He did some work on the computer and I decided to nap. Later on he came in and we were laying there....he said something along the lines of he wished I would make advances on him because it makes him feel special. I very bluntly said "Don't you have enough women out there to make you feel special?" Whack away - I know. His response, "Don't you get it yet? There aren't any other women." I really have no idea WTH that means. Could mean there aren't any other wom"E"n and only one OW; or it could mean that he's not even seeing her anymore. I have no idea....and didn't dwell on it. I did lay there thinking for a bit, then he had his back to me so I rolled over, snuggled up against his back with my arm around his waist. That led to....
I don't know if it was wrong to do or not. It seemed right at the time. I don't regret it, and am owning my part in it, OT. I don't know that I noticed it before, I always thought his LL were WOA and AOS, but it seems a really big deal to him that I still want him sexually. I know there's other girls out there that would be with him that way - I've seen the emails, I've even heard them...so, I ave to wonder why he turns to me when he doesn't have to.
Whatever, the consequence, lol, it's done. We probably won't see him until Sunday or Monday since we're going away this weekend. He had said he would drive to his brothers on Sunday, and I suggested to him that he didn't have to, that I could find someone to watch the kids for me so that he could have the day to himself if he wanted. I haven't asked his plans, and won't. It's up to him to decide and I'm making my plans so that they don't rely on him. If he shows up, he shows up. If not, no big deal.
Quote: His response, "Don't you get it yet? There aren't any other women." I really have no idea WTH that means. Could mean there aren't any other wom"E"n and only one OW; or it could mean that he's not even seeing her anymore. I have no idea....and didn't dwell on it.
I guess there are two questions here:
1) What did he mean?
2) Is he telling the truth?
It's remarkable to me that you're at the point where you can avoid obsessing about that and not worry about OW. You have clearly made a lot of progress in detachment. I probably would have unfortunately ended up in an R talk if I were in your place.
The LORD is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth." (Psalm 145:18)
I wish the circumstances were similar to yours , but my W takes the same approach whenever I bring up the OM. She plays it off like not only is there no OM, so-to-speak (she claims it's ONLY an EA after all), but that I am crazy for thinking there is. I think it's part of the WAS natural defense mechanism for avoiding all talk of the affair. A full description of it can be found on page 678 of the WAS Handbook.
Seriously, when my W says those things, it always stirs up all those conflicting emotions/ideas in me. WTH is the best way to sum it up. I mean, does she REALLY believe that I am that stupid? OR, am I really that stupid for thinking there is more going on that there actually is, as she says. It is a often used tactic by the WAS because it WORKS.
My W adds to the "You have nothing to worry about" and "It's not like that" variants of the standard "there is no OM" tactic by saying things along the lines of "I can't believe you think I would do that!" That one in particular makes me chuckle inside. Then again, it also makes me wonder if I am ascribing negative traits to her that don't fit. Maybe she isn't a woman who could have a PA...then again, I may never know that.
Ok, so back to you NM, you are right to question this in your mind, and probably right to question him directly about WTH this means from him. It's frustrating as hell to think these people would simply choose NOT to tell us in a direct, honest way, when their affairs are over. I suppose it's their way of holding onto them as a backup plan.
Thanks Guys, for dropping by. Well, by even saying anything at all, it was not as detached as I could have been, right? Or, perhaps I was fishing. Sometimes I just "do" or "say" without thinking about all the hidden meanings or underlying agendas.
This is the 1st time in a long time that I have said anything about OW. Our sitch may be a little different because I knew from the start about OW - he in fact came to me about it and my initial reaction is and still is..."well then go". I never tried to stop him. I just don't have THAT in me...I don't know how to explain it other than I'm not going to make a complete a$$ out of myself for someone who doesn't want me. Been there, done that. My theory has always been similar to the DB theory, let him go...you know that "If you love someone set them free" saying and all.
So the whole "OW" has been something that I have been able to deal with upfront - for the most part. He's not denied it; I've not buried my head in the sand about it. I knew we're dealing with other issues that led to the OW and I've always known that. However, once OW got involved, it led to other problems that have to be dealt with 1st in order to get "US" back. And it reminds me of what you were saying the other day about how if we look at it, our M or R wasn't perfect...and that's how we got here. I knew we had problems, just had no idea how to resolve them. Didn't realize that "I" could do a lot of the work on our R myself that would start the domino effect of CHANGE. Duh, is all I have to say about that.
In a very, very strange way, it took the OW to get me to take a good hard look at him, me, and our R and whether I really truly wanted it or not. I've had to look really deep inside and determine whether I really loved him, would I want to spend my life with him. And, well, I'm still here, so I guess that says it all. In the end, some of the issues can't be resolved without us being back in a committed R. So I continue to work on the things that I can, while not in that kind of R with him. Difficult, but not impossible.
And, I didn't sleep with him yesterday because of anything he said, BTW. It just felt like it was something I wanted to do. I've been sensing tiny progress. I hope I'm not wrong about it.
Detachment is about not being reactive. It is not about acting like your SO or his actions don't matter. Detachment should be part of a good M.
I think it was the perfect opportunity to address the topic directly in terms of what you want -- he brought it up. "SO, no, I'm still confused about what is going on. If you could be direct with me about what is going on with OW and us in your head, that would be helpful."
There would be lots that would have to happen....A...then B, then C, all the way down to about...XYZ before we ever reached the moving back in stage!!! LOL One step at a time.
, but my W takes the same approach whenever I bring up the OM. She plays it off like not only is there no OM, so-to-speak (she claims it's ONLY an EA after all), but that I am crazy for thinking there is. I think it's part of the WAS natural defense mechanism for avoiding all talk of the affair. A full description of it can be found on page 678 of the WAS Handbook.