Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums Infidelity/Extramarital Affairs/Jealousy Entering Limboland...GH Saga Part 8

Quote:

---

mixing and matching theories with GREAT success. You are probably one of those able to do that.

---

Now that it again appears that I may have the success that I have been so eagerly awaiting, let me say that I never intentionally did anything that was not DB. Kicking my W out doesn't count because I did that before I read DR or anything else for that matter and I had no plan at that point. (The experiment offer wasn't DB, but it wasn't accepted, so it isn't really a part of what actually occurred.) What worked was spending several weeks focusing on GAL, getting past my anger, recognizing and addressing my contributions to our marital difficulties ... and then focusing on being there for her while giving her space and never contacting her, meeting her emotional needs when she contacted me, acting "as if" (even through staying a night in their love nest), and letting her know that I cared in ways that didn't pressure her at all so that she could see the changes in my life.

I had an IC session yesterday. It was more of the same. We spent most of the time discussing my intimacy issues and some ways I can deal with them. It was somewhat productive and basically I just need to DO something at this point.
We also talked about my feeling that I had no way to influence people or change their mood. We didn't get that far with this conversation but she thought it was important and started to go to the "inner child" stuff to address it. I think this idea, as it relates to my intimacy issues, is an important one. It plays out in my M by me not thinking I can do anything to make my W affectionate towards me or influence her mood at all. I don't see myself as having that ability, which I clearly do but do not know how to use it.
DB/DR address this as well early on when talking about how most people think they can push certain buttons to upset their spouse but then don't understand that they can also push buttons to make them feel other ways too.
My C believes that my understanding of my personal power to affect people (NOT control them mind you), and my deserving of affection/gaining of self esteem are my core issues these days. She agrees that my R with my W has improved dramatically and the state of the affair should play no role in that. She is basically advocating a similar stance to DB/DR in just letting the thing die a slow death without my help.

So I go into this week really trying to focus once again on my needs, desires and happiness. I have been WAY too focused on R stuff lately and I think I am falling back into my old ways. I really need to be careful that I don't do that. C thinks that W is already doing that and she is just trying to live our "old" life and in our "old" marriage. I suggested that it may be ok if SHE does that (or thinks she is anyway) since I have changed so much it can never really BE the same marriage no matter what she does. C agreed.

As for the daily grind, nothing much different. My W came to bed last night smelling of perfume or something. I could SWEAR it was the same scent that was on the bear and t-shirts but I can't be sure so...
I did ask her directly and without fanfare what perfume she was wearing and she just said it was the tank top she was wearing and that it was new/had "new shirt smell". I don't think that was a very good excuse but WTH, I got nothing better to go with. I asked, she answered so I was left with accepting her answer or calling her on it. At midnight...I was accepting and going to sleep. Live to suspect another day I say.

Today will be a good one. I finally have NO obligations in the afternoon/evening and can spend some time with the boys and just doing stuff around the house. It's the little things anymore that make me happy...

GH

Quote:

---

I really need to be careful that I don't do that. C thinks that W is already doing that and she is just trying to live our "old" life and in our "old" marriage. I suggested that it may be ok if SHE does that (or thinks she is anyway) since I have changed so much it can never really BE the same marriage no matter what she does. C agreed.

---

Interesting. This is kind of where I see things now in my sitch. My W has seemed to slip back into that mode of the "old" R and the "old" way of living and I've been trying to think of ways to address that. Obviously, in my mind, going back to the "old" way really isn't the answer. I really like your take on it, it really can never be the "old" way if you are effectuating changes in your R, despite, or in spite of, what your W may be feeling, acting, etc.

The other thing that struck me was the issue of intimacy and me not believing that I can do anything to make my W more affectionate towards me. On this issue, I think both her and I have issues related to esteem which really puts a damper on things, although throughout most of our R, I had more confidence and a slightly better positive self-image which would overcome her intimacy issues. Now that the confidence has been shaken and the self-esteem has taken a blow, I find it harder to initiate any intimacy. Perhpas this is something I need to work on.

I think your C is definitely on to some things here, fortunately through your posting we all can gain some counseling vicariously!

Thanks Rob. I guess I will take that as a request of sorts and I will expand on what C/I said about my intimacy issues.

I said I still felt like my W was not open to intimacy with me for some reason. I told C that I felt that with the OM issue still hanging around I needed to get closure on that via a R talk and also air some of my concerns, etc about where we "are" right now.
C immediately asked why I needed to TALK to my W, especially since we spent the first part of the session telling C how my W was NOT a verbal communicator and prefer ed actions to words. We reviewed all MY actions and changes illustrated by those actions and how they HAVE obviously registered with my W. I agreed...so back to the intimacy...

C suggested that my W will respect actions and RESPOND to them much better than words. I said I was afraid of taking action and was waiting for SOME sign from W that she was open to that. C said that W may never give me that sign if she is waiting for ME to initiate. C feels that W MAY think that her wearing the ring, saying she's trying, not seeing the OM at night, etc ARE W's way of communicating that she's open to "more".

I said I understood that but...C said but nothing. I just need to realize that there is many ways I could DO things, and not just kissing, hand holding, etc. I said I was already giving W little touches now and then, little hugs from behind when she was in the kitchen, etc. C said that was good and to use those moments, if W is open to them (which she seems to be most of the time) and expand on them. Hug a little longer next time. Add a little kiss on the neck after the hand on the shoulder, etc.

C stressed that when she counsels people on sexuality (which I suppose she is going to have to start doing with me soon, lol) one of the most important things she stresses is that BOTH partners understand that the goal of intimacy is NOT sexual intercourse.

I interjected and said in the interest of honesty, it WAS my goal right now after 6 months of not having sex. C said that was not true because she knows I have said repeatedly that I just want to kiss and hold my W and that I have learned to separate sexual desire from intimacy and that one does NOT necessarily lead to the other and vise-verse. I agreed.

So, she said that I needed to figure out what I wanted and then figure out how I would get that or even ask for it in the moment. C said this was really NOT the best way to do this because if I am thinking when the moment arrives, I will likely NOT DO what I need/want to do. Her point was that my W want passion and to feel desired, not to feel like there's a plan at work.

From there we moved on to address something I never really realized before. My W has ALWAYS seemed to enjoy intimacy with me when I seemed/was passionate. It seems like a no-brainer but since that passion was not the easiest thing for me to express, I just didn't express it much. The times I did...wow...it really made a difference for my W. I am not saying things were passionless, just that there is a difference between (C clarified this) sexual energy and passion/desire for your spouse. When I thought about this, I got scared again and said that to my C.

She asked why I was afraid of passion. I said I was afraid because I could be rejected and to be passionate like that, I was exposing emotions that were hard for me to expose. When I got shut down at those moments, I was very hurt and it made me not want to do it again. C just said I need to learn to feel comfortable with MY feelings and expressing them WITHOUT regard to how my W reacts. She said it's not the same as not caring about W's feelings but that I could learn to BE passionate and express it without getting bent if my W was not receptive. C said it didn't mean she didn't like/want the passion, just maybe not right then.

I thought about that and then somehow got on the idea about me not being able to "get her in the mood" and my overall feeling of being powerless to alter someone's mood/feeling/opinion.

The last thing we really touched on was my feeling that my W has ALWAYS seen intimacy from me to be an attempt at sex, and rightfully so because for our entire relationship it has been. C asked why that was. I just said I didn't know. She then asked why I was that way and explored some of how I first became sexually active, etc. Long story short, I never really developed my intimacy "skills" beyond the sexual realm for whatever reason. She sees me stuck in an adolescent state where I am shy and unsure of what to do when confronted with intimacy outside the bedroom. She is right on with that. We are going to work on that more, but for the time being I just wanted to figure out what I needed to do/say to my W to let her understand that I KNOW how she perceives my intimacy and she's right, but that I now understand what I have been missing and want to change.

C suggested that once again, I could use actions here rather than words and just SHOW her that I can be passionate towards her and not have it lead to sex. I told C I think I was working towards that and she said that was good.

That is the gist of our talk yesterday. Last summary for those of you taking notes...W likes to feel desired. I am afraid of expressing passion. I need to take initiative and be responsible for either acting or asking for what I want/need.

Hope that helps other than to air my dirty laundry so-to-speak...

GH

All in all, we didn't get real deep into the intimacy thing, just scratched the surface and touched on what seems to me to be the over-riding issues. First, that my W, considering her history of low-self esteem steming from a bad body image and her lack of initiation of affection, seems to need me to step up and initiate things. She MAY be waiting for me to step things up but no matter what, I need to understand that if/when things DO get back to where we are starting to be intimate, SEX should NOT be the goal right away. Since one of the things

Today I feel strange, just a little sad and melancholy. Really it started last night. It's just a feeling, and I guess it was brought on by these recurring thoughts that I DON'T want my old marriage back and it seems like my W is moving, or has already moved back to that. Sure, it's better than the alternative, FOR NOW, but long term, it can't be this way. Also, my W's continued coldness is taking it's toll on me but hell, I've lasted 10 years, why not another couple months...

I am starting to get a bit depressed thinking that I did all this work and now I am back to square -1, and in my mind, back on track to have everything happen all over again.
I know, like I said to Rob yesterday (or someone anyway) that I can change things by virtue of MY changes it's just that I am not sure my changes are still in effect. I hope it's just a case where I am so used to the "new me" that it no longer takes the effort to maintain the changes and thus they are transparent to me. When I look at my life, and how I live it, I see the difference between now and then. What I don't like is that due to my W's semi-trying to "get back to us" I have fallen off in the GAL area, mainly due to her requests. For work reasons, I was gone much of Friday and Saturday but the rest of the time, I have been around the house, sometimes under-foot so to speak and I don't like that. It comes back to the age old issue in my M; my W seems to hate it when I am gone, but doesn't really seem to like me around too much either. Maybe it's simply finding a balance when I am around the house of not being around her too much OR too little. In the end, I can't worry about that too much. I am going to do what I want to do until such time comes where we are really working on our M because to do anything else doesn't make much sense right now and would be counterproductive.

As for my own happiness, I am MUCH happier than I was a year ago, 2 years ago, really, since the kids were born. I am slipping a bit there too though, yelling a tiny bit at the kids, but W is too, which doesn't excuse it but it doesn't make it all just me being angry. Overall though, I am a happy person these days. I don't really know if it honestly all comes from within (we all know that somehow, by some miracle we get happier when our WAS act nicer towards us...lol) but it feels like it does.

So my problem today is being too attached in a sense, but even that isn't quite right. I still live day-to-day without letting my W's emotions or moods pull me down. I have become very good at maintaining my own mood and just "being" for my sake. That has been the most dramatic shift for me since I was constantly matching my W's mood before and lived much of my life FOR HER. I don't do that anymore...for the most part. I just feel like the sitch is wearing on me again. The not knowing is getting to me. The desire to talk is welling up in me again, and while I know, thanks to my C and OT's advice, I can talk to W in a direct, rational way, I still don't really feel the time is right for that. Either that or I lack the necessary intestinal fortitude to do it...I hope it's the former.

I guess this is the limbo version of the roller coaster. It's more like a raft ride down a gently river with dips and bumps here and there. It's not the intensity of the ride that gets you, it's the monotony. That, and the thought that anywhere up ahead there could be extreme rapids and a deadly waterfall.

I guess it's time to get out the charts (DR) and try to figure out where I am so I can be best prepared for what's ahead. Surely some uncharted waters...

GH

Alas, my good friend, I know exactly the feeling you describe. I wish I could be more of a cheerleader this morning, but maybe I'll stick to pointing out a couple of things instead. First of all, I still like the point you made yesterday about effectuating changes in the relationship based upon what YOU are doing. I really think this is key. Your W, much like mine as we have already established, is not likely to make the changes on her own. Its so much easier for them to slip into the "old" mode because, quite frankly, its easier than making changes. Quite frankly, if they had had the werewithal to make those positive changes, it is likely that the A wouldn't have occurred in the first place. Now I'm not suggesting that our W's are weak, but I'm also basing this upon experience. Changing "old" habits in an R takes work...a lot of work. I mean, you and I have seen for ourselves how hard it is to change our behaviors, reactions, etc. In my sitch, it was easier to seek emotional support outside my M as opposed to making the changes necessary to have that emotional support in my M. Can't explain why, but it required less work.

Now, your W and mine both seem to on the fence here as to the next step. It appears that both of them have cooled things off with the OM and are now stepping back to examine the M. This is really a crucial time for you and me. Effectuate those positive changes, show her that you have changed, and changed for good.

As for talking, it may be a good idea to at least bring the subject up in a direct way. Look, at some time, you are going to have to. I think the best tact here is to have a simple, direct way of stating that you want to know where things stand. Gauge her reaction, if the time is right, she will talk. If not, you will know it and you can pull back and examine. The point being, you will never know if you don't at least try. That's my humble opinion.

Good morning grasshopper,
It is so hard to be patient, and not get exhausted, isn't it? Your post struck me because I think the ambivalence, and not knowing what is going to happen, is always the hardest thing for me. This affected my marriage throughout - I was the planner, he was the "let's see what happens" one. I am much more proactive in creating/causing, so my biggest frustration in my marriage was trying to figure out how to do that when I was in a partnership instead of by myself. I know how to do it on my own, but wanting certain things in the context of partnership made it all so much more complicated! They just don't always think/behave/choose the way we want them to How's that for getting the importance of giving up the need to control?

Anyway, you said

Quote:

---

It comes back to the age old issue in my M; my W seems to hate it when I am gone, but doesn't really seem to like me around too much either. Maybe it's simply finding a balance when I am around the house of not being around her too much OR too little. In the end, I can't worry about that too much. I am going to do what I want to do until such time comes where we are really working on our M because to do anything else doesn't make much sense right now and would be counterproductive.

---

I think you are right on here, and I would even say that you will need to keep doing what you want to do, forever. I get the sense that you have sometimes sacrificed your own needs/wants/good ideas etc. to cater to your wife's, and you will end up in the same sitch if you let that happen again. Granted, sometimes we need to cater to our partner's needs, but if we do that, it needs to be becaase we WANT to, and after conscious thought about it and choosing it.

A thought: Maybe your wife's coldness is related to your lack of personal power. I know you love your wife, and are a dedicated husband and father. Give her someone she can respect too. Keep trying to find that balance. You have done an amazing job in weathering this crisis. Part of what has allowed that to happen, is that you are getting in touch with yourself and getting a life that you love. You noticed you slipped a little last weekend? OK! What are you going to do today that will give you pleasure? I think that is the very best thing we can do, in the face of "I don't know what's going to happen". If you think about it, we never really know what's going to happen anyway, even when we've planned for it. So might as well make the best of the journey, starting today and each day.

PL, I will reply to you first and Rob, I will get to you after lunch.

PL, I realize now that your word, exhaustion is really the one I was looking for that entire post. It's not detachment or lack thereof, it's just simple exhaustion and the letting down of my guard and slowing of growth I feel because of it. I need to recharge.

As for the GAL stuff, I think my major problem, not just now, but for my entire marriage is that my enjoyment, MY PERSONAL, ALONE enjoyment comes from things that are found in my home. I don't need to go out to do them. Mainly this is because I REALLY love my photography work and I enjoy being on the computer, editing the weeks shoots. I also like video games and spending time with my kids. All that can be done at home. Sure, I take the boys out ALL the time, and I am away from home doing photo gigs all the time too so I do have a life and I DO enjoy the hell out of it. Like I said, and have said in my threads before, it's the idea that I need to maybe be HOME more but not be AROUND as much.

I really appreciate your words today. They really helped me realize what my prevailing issue is. I need to really just give myself time off from thinking/acting in this sitch and do my little GAL thing for awhile. I actually did do that last night and it helped a bit, but more is needed. I did that in the beginning and it worked. I just need to do it again, and then don't ever stop.

I have more to say on this but I will make it part of my reply to Rob.

GH

Thanks Rob. I don't need cheerleading as much as good, honest advice.

I appreciate your ideas on both where our W's are and my desire to talk about it with her. I think the time is near, and it's really just about picking the right time and place to do it. I already know what I want to say to her, and how to say it, it's just a matter of doing it. Of course, that's the hard part after SO long of denying any R talk.

I know what has to be done it's just that with so much positive stuff going on, it makes it all the more difficult to bring the up subjects that will at once bring the A, OM and my W's feelings back to the forefront where they have not been in awhile. I suppose that is a good thing in a lot of ways because it DOES need to be dealt with.

My whole focus in all this is to be direct and to the point with her without all my passive/agressive, wishy-washyness creeping in. That is really hard for me, but I know I can do it. I already do that now in most of our daily interaction, it's just one more subject I need to address that way.

I am feeling a bit better, having planned some time to myself this evening and getting my thoughts in order. As I was told VERY early on here, time IS on my side and will not forget that. So long as things are PROGRESSING, then time is my friend, not my enemy even thought time spent in limbo is very painful indeed.

GH

Hi GH,

As you feel more secure and less panicked, you'll get more honest about your own happiness, present and past, your own needs and desires. This is an incredibly painful and sad process to go through.

I actually disagree with Rob about the LBS being the one who is willing to do the work where the WAS won't. I think the LBS and the WAS are pretty darn close together — both live in an M that is not working and living a very painful existence. It is pretty much luck of the draw who breaks first.

The LBS then *becomes* someone who will really look at themselves and do the work because of the immense trauma of losing a loved one. The WAS does not experience this shock to the system because they don't experience the loss. Typically, they know that the LBS is still there for them.

The problem with this uneven growth becomes very apparent with reconcilliation. The WAS really hasn't gotten anywhere, whereas the LBS has. The couple is no longer matched in terms of emotional maturity or R skills.

Meantime, the LBS is calming down and starting to "get" what drove the WAS away in the first place. The LBS finally starts to see the miserable aspects of the old M, not for the WAS (the LBS has wallowed for months in self-pity about how miserable they made the WAS), but for themselves. On the one hand, finally getting how bad the M was for oneself and the deep feelings of sadness and hopelessness that come with that can give the LBS more empathy for the WAS. On the other hand, it also presents the challenge of having to choose whether to insist that your new R be the kind of partnership you want or instead going with the flow and most likely becoming a WAS yourself a few years down the road.

Basically, W has to do the work you did when you were a LBS, and you have to do the work she did when she was a WAS. You are coming out of denial about just how bad things were for you. WAS got how bad things were for her long ago. WAS needs to get how much she was part of the problem. You got how much you were part of the problem long ago.

You are hurting yourself, your W, and your M by not being straightforward about what you want in terms of a partnership and then working through compromise to a shared vision you both can live with and *want* to live with.

I can't imagine that your W wants the old R. She is probably reluctant to make any demands that you change the R because she feels guilty about the R. As far as *she* knows, you are fine with the status quo. You just keep going with the flow. Is she really going to want to voice her discontent with that after you took her back even though she cheated on you? The hopelessness is probably creeping back into her outlook. Even *after* all that has happened, things just remain the same -- nothing will change -- an H who won't stand up for himself, a passionless M, someone she lives with that she resents for being away because when he is there she never gets what she needs from him. I wouldn't be surprised if in her own mind a plan is starting to develop on how to leave after the kids go away to school. I wouldn't be surprised if you haven't started to have vague thoughts about such things yourself. If not, give yourself another 6 months this way and I bet you'll have them.

Get this: your W cheated on you. You were both miserable in your old R. Your W needs to make amends and work with you to rebuild trust and intimacy. You need to make your expectations for a new M that is DIFFERENT from the old M crystal clear, if for no other reason than to give you both hope that a wonderful life is possible. In a nutshell, you need to insist that your W step up to the plate now. Continuing to shoulder the burden of maintaining the R yourself is to stay firmly planted in the fixer role. You aren't even giving her any space to try to fix things with you. Instead, you are painting her into a corner in which she will always be the partner who doesn't care about improving the R and you have to do everything necessary to even keep it afloat. It is hubris to think you can do so. It is condescending to W to think you have to. It is chasing failure and pain for all in your family to continue to try.

BTW, it is great that you are recognizing passion as a need of Ws that you aren't meeting. I've mentioned this before, and your reply is that your W knows you want her. It is a huge step from there to where you are now. Congratulations, I'm sure it was painful to get there and it took a lot of strength and courage.

Oh, and one related thing, if everyday you make an effort to make your W feel special, appreciated, considered, and desired, I expect she will feel less resentful of your time away.

Bring her coffee in bed, thank her for taking care of one of those "little chores" that are a real hassle that you never have to deal with, buy her something that shows you were on her mind (this can be *very* small) or tell her something reminded you of her during the day or you saw something she might like, look at her with open lust in your eyes and an "mmmmmmm."

Best,
Oldtimer