I had a IC session yesterday and it went well. We talked a lot about my desire to talk to my W about things and my C took me through a few mock conversations where she played my W and I tried out different ways of asking certain things. In the end she showed me how making statements about how I FEEL can be a great way to either start communication or at least let her know how I feel without getting a defensive reaction. Mainly she said based on my W's shutting me down AND asking "what do you want me to tell you" the other night when I tried out the R talk, I should get by giving. She said I should give my W what I want, open talk about feelings, and hopefully she will respond in kind. C talked a lot about what I am or am not doing to be proactive in all this since it's obvious that my W, for whatever reason, is not going to be, and really, never has been the one to instigate these kinds of conversations, or those kinds of actions.
She also said that the better time to do this, or to start this would be in response to an experience, maybe not immediately after but the day after at the latest. I talked about my W "recoiling" from my kiss the other day and she said something like that would have been perfect to respond to by saying something like "You know it really hurts me when you pull back like that." or something like that. Just give her an honest reaction, without accusation or negative tone. She said that W may not even know she's doing it at all.
She basically told me to find the right moment and just express how I feel to my W. Tell her that I am hurt by some of her actions (not THAT action, that goes without saying) but that overall I really think things are going well between us and I would like to take it further but am afraid and unsure how to do that. I said I didn't want to appear weak or tentative (OT) and she said since it is obviously VERY hard for me to talk about these things, as it is for my W, it would be very STRONG of me to be able to talk about how I feel in a mature, honest way. I admitted that my W and I had never really been able to do that (talk about our R or intimacy) and she asked me if I wanted to continue in a relationship where we can't talk about those things...I said no. She said "then it's up to YOU to help bring about that change."
As for the affair, she said we just can't know what's going on there right now. He could be on vacation or out of her life, but C said knowing all she THINKS she knows about my W from my sessions, that she would not expect my W to come out and say OM is gone for two reasons. First because she (C) thinks that my W would be VERY happy to just ease back into our "normal" life without EVER having to talk about this again. I never told her that's how I feel too but it's not too hard to figure out. The second reason is that she may still want to hold onto him in some way and telling me he's gone would be too much of a commitment while she is still feeling her way around "us".
I also added that I thought before my W would be intimate with me again, sex or otherwise, she would have to be honest with me about them being physical if they had. I said it was a fear of mine that kept me from asking too many questions. C said she understood but that we (C & I) had assumed from the beginning that a PA was a real possibility. It was then that I brought up the forgiveness conversation I had with a few of you here last week. I told C that I felt I had already forgiven my W for starting this, and when it ended, I would forgive her for it altogether. C said I should find a way to tell her that. She said IF I truly feel like I have forgiven her, that I should tell her that and basically let her off the hook in terms of telling me anymore. I should just tell her that I forgive her for whatever went on and want to just work on getting us back again. C didn't say to do this right now, but that if it seemed like there was a barrier still preventing us from connecting, proactively forgiving her may be a decent risk to take even though as some said, she may take offense at being forgiven for something she either didn't do, or doesn't think was wrong.
C thought the ring was obviously a big step and really significant because since my W is not a big verbal communicator, it was the best way she could SHOW me that she's trying.
It was a really good session, one that I took some concrete ideas from. I was one of the first sessions that was "solution" based but that was because I said going in that i really didn't want to spend an hour going over current events and wanted to start working exclusively on me and my issues. We did end up talking about W and R stuff most of the time, but it was in relation to how I am and my issues. Surprisingly my C spent a lot of time kinda taking my W's side in things which actually made me feel better because I don't just want C to be a "yes" woman for me and not call me out when I am on the "wrong" side of things, especially when it pertains to my intimacy issues, etc.
As for my sitch at home, nothing to report. W is sick so she spent a fair amount of time sleeping when I got home. I put the boys to bed (usually we both do it) so she could rest. She's not been sleeping well the past few nights because of being sick and she also broke out in some kind of hives (stress anyone?) the night before last. We just watched TV together, I worked out, she made the kid's lunches and then we went to bed early. Totally uneventful night in limboland. The only thing that was significant was that I had the feeling, for the first time in a LONG time that the OM was not "with us". There was nothing really that pointed to that, just a feeling. I could be wrong.
"You know it really hurts me when you pull back like that."
Sounds great. Maybe better not to tell her what she knows... "Ouch! it really hurts me when you pull back like that."
Speaking directly about your feelings and desires is never tentative.
Rubbing someone's back and obsessing over whether to brush the side of her breast of not while your hands dampen from anxiety is tentative.
Massaging someone's back, firmly reaching under her to flip her over, kissing her deeply, and proceeding with further external and internal massage is not tentative.
Hemming and hawing while talking is tentative. "Gee, I don't want to push you, but I really want to be able to make love to you sometime, I'm not setting a deadline, but maybe in the next 5 years you won't flinch if I make a move."
Directness is saying: "Passion in our M is important to me. I will no longer be satisfied with a sexless M or a lack of real intimacy in our lovemaking. What I want for us is a passionate emotional and physical connection during lovemaking. I want to feel desired and I want to feel comfortable approaching you. I want to be able to ___________________."
Directness is pretty much always sexy.
As for the A, are you really going to resume unprotected sexual relations with her without confirmation that she has had a full-range of STD tests? My old C told me once with respect to be cheated on and then lied to, "Well Oldtimer, people lie about these things." And, it is true, even after reconcilliation, even after recomittment, people keep their secrets. It sounds like you are on your way toward accepting that you may never know what happened and forgiving whatever did happen.
It sounds like you think a PA may have been posssible. Will you feel safe without knowing whether she has been tested? This would be a pretty strong boundary for me after I knew about an A. I might be able to accept not knowing the details. (Though, this is doubtful. I pretty much buy into Michelle's view that recovery here requires the person who had the A to be happy to be an open book for quite awhile.) But, I would not have unprotected sex with someone who had a sexual history I was unsure of until they were tested for my own sake and my kid's sake.
If she wants you to take her back after she has been involved with someone and is unwilling to take an AIDS test to relieve your fears, something is very wrong. They sell them OTC, BTW.
Quote: Rubbing someone's back and obsessing over whether to brush the side of her breast of not while your hands dampen from anxiety is tentative.
Wow, were you THERE: lol. Seriously, damn, is that so common that...well...damn...you figured me out.
As for the rest, yes, I want to be direct and I will be.
In terms of the unprotected sex thing, well, we don't do that anyway, never have except when we were trying for kids, which WE ARE NOT going to do again so...
Like I have said in a way here, and DIRECTLY to my C yesterday, I have a feeling of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" a lot these days. I see SO much progress that is obvious and does NOT require reading between the lines (the ring, her being ok with me touching her at all which is better than even the past year when she really didn't want back rubs, better family time, planning for the future, great communication, etc) and other examples of things that COULD be progress (no OM evidence since we got back from Ireland, no more teddy bear or shirts with his cologne, etc) that I am ok with the plan as it is. I don't feel the need to take the next step yet, and I don't fear her, well, somehow wanting that and going back to the OM full time because I am not doing it.
That conversation, about what I want from our marriage and my W, and our passion or lack of it, WILL happen but not right now. We are not there yet, and I firmly believe that. My C agrees. C thinks talking about sexual intimacy or even really pursuing it is kinda like a stage 2 conversation/action. She/I believe that more time needs to be given to the process that we all know as DBing because it clearly is working. More time will let me get more comfortable with myself and strengthen the friendship that I believe will lead to more soon. I just think I have more work to do before I take that step. Like some of those contemplating their WAS returning home and being unsure if they are ready, I feel like I only want to take that step when I am ready to do it right. I have a lifetime of doing it wrong to sorta get over first. Patience, counseling, you all, and this process are all helping me get there and I realize that the real progress won't be made until I, as Nike says, Just DO It...lol.
Could I go home tonight and just start talking about what I need and want? Sure, but there's no pressure on me to do that. To clarify, I DON'T NEED to do that right now. I have gone this long without passion in my M so more time will not kill me, especially if I believe that waiting will lead to better days ahead. I am in this for the long haul.
Last thing is that I just want you, OT, to know that I really appreciate your input on this issue of being direct and not being tentative. Maybe I am not showing it yet by what I am posting/doing, but those ideas ARE transforming how I think about myself and how I want to be in my marriage. It's also giving me insight into what I want/need my W to be as well, and knowing both of those things gives me great hope that I will do the right thing in the end. I promise you it's not falling on deaf ears. Seriously, much of this is new to me and I WILL get it sooner or later...hopefully sooner!
Truly, nothing to report. TV, cleaning and bed last night. Limbo at it's finest.
BTW, that slow time at work that allows me to post so much is over for awhile. We are a couple people short and I have to pick up the slack so luckily for you I will probably only jump on a couple times in the day. I will try to keep up with your sitches and post on mine best I can.
I give your credit for trying to help other's. You will be blessed.
"A man of knowledge uses words with restraint, and a man of understanding is even-tempered. Even a fool is thought wise if he keeps silent, and discerning if he holds his tongue." Proverbs 17:27-28
Yes, GH, you are in limbo. Just KNOWING that you don't want your M to go back to the way it was, that's the first step in allowing it to grow, change, and improve over the long term. Look at it that way. Sure, maybe right now you're not at the exact place you'd like to be, but you are moving ahead....with your W, BTW.
You have the intelligence to know that R's are ever-changing. And, by finding and integrating DB'ing into your life, you now have a very useful tool to help you along the way. What is today will not be tomorrow, or next year, or 10 years from now. As long as you are willing to keep growing, changing, and ALWAYS be open to doing 180's for the rest of your life (!!!!) your M will never go back to the comfortable rut that led you to this journey.
There's a part in DR that goes over how YOU feel when WA starts coming back.....Pulling It Together, then there's a part in the Infidelity section (page 218 - I just went & looked it up! LOL) that deals with the emotions YOU are feeling - maybe you should re-read over those - it may help you.
Quote: There's a part in DR that goes over how YOU feel when WA starts coming back.....Pulling It Together, then there's a part in the Infidelity section (page 218 - I just went & looked it up! LOL) that deals with the emotions YOU are feeling - maybe you should re-read over those - it may help you.
Um...did you read that post where I said I never really read DR? I have it now and am on page 77...lol. I DID read DB though.
This is an excerpt from OT's post on NM's thread. The rest of the post is worth reading as well, but this description of what WE all look like to our WAS when we pursue is GREAT and really opened my eyes in a way that they were not before. Enjoy...or not.
Quote: Did you ever know someone, maybe in elementary school, maybe in a job, that *really* wanted to be great friends with you, but you didn't want to be that close to them? This person would have been OK as an acquaintance, maybe someone to go out with after work for a drink occassionally, but was not a person that you wanted to have a heart to heart convo with, ever. This person seemed to need you, seemed a little clingly, a little pathetic and very sad. Even after they quit asking you to do stuff all the freaking time, they always looked up expectantly as you made your way toward the door for lunch. You could always perceive the slight hurt in their eyes when they overheard what you did with friends over the weekend. This person was always just waiting for you to adopt them as a close friend. This person did sweet things for you without putting any demands on you -- bringing you a cookie, telling you about a good airfare to someplace you want to visit, offering to dogsit when you went on vacation, getting angry on your behalf when your boss snarled at you... Do you remember the cloying suffocation you felt just being around this person? The stress of having to deal with this person's emotional neediness day to day? Sure, they weren't asking you to do stuff all the time anymore, but you could *feel* their desperate desire for a pal? Ugggghhhh... Exhausting. Then there is the anger and resentment that comes from having to live with this unwanted burden. The funny thing is, the person would really have been OK and you can see why some other folks in the office have no problem with that person as an occassional after work drink buddy. If only the person would back off and sincerely quit being the best friend in waiting, you'd probably be fine with them. But NO ONE likes someone who insists on standing in a more intimate R with them than they want with that person.
Hello???!!........is the place I used to visit all the time? I am not sure?
Hey GH Just had a chance to read your posts! You are doing awesome my man! You told me once not to long ago how far I had come since we first started talking on this board.....and you have travelled a long way on this journey also! Be proud of the person you are and who you are becoming!
So what are my comments now that I am a little more caught up? Stay the course. I agree with OT that you need to be more direct and let your W know exactly how YOU are feeling. Don't leave anything up to debate in her mind about you. Be assertive but not over powering. I know that has worked very well for me. I no longer keep my feelings bottled up. i think about what I am going to say before I say it to my W, but I am clear on how I feel. Like you I want more intamicy with my W. I told her exactly that, and that I want her make love to me and develop the passion again. She agreed that is what she wants and to let it happen slowly. So what is happening is the kisses are getting longer, the hugs are tighter, the naked encounters are increasing, and we are letting it build! You and I are in different sitch right now. I am trying to recouncil a second time. I see a definite end to my sitch. It will work and we will have a better marriage than I ever imagined because my W and I both want it, or the BIG D! I am Ok with both. I am evaluating our progress daily. We are moving away from the big D, but I still am evaluating whether my W is ready to being a loving and commited marriage.
The one thing for you GH is your W sees all the positive changes you have made! She sees the man she knows she wants to be married to! She just can't open up and admitt to it because of what she has done. You have to be able to foregive her and that takes time, and an open heart. She has to do the same, but for herself nad what she has done. That takes time! My W is still working on that! She is feeling the pain of all the bad things she has done to me and the kids over the last year. Foregiving herself has to happen before we can move forward. Each day it gets better. Your W may not verbalize itike my W, and just slip back into your marriage. Just keep up your growth and the changes you are making personally to keep her on her toes, and excited to be with you!
Tim
my story http://www.divorcebusting.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1049617&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1
lol. Seriously, damn, is that so common that...well...damn...you figured me out. 
I will probably only jump on a couple times in the day. I will try to keep up with your sitches and post on mine best I can. 
