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Well. Was talking to D15 tonite. Seeing how she is doing. She brought up that she is wishing that we would 'move forward'. I asked her what she meant and she said

D15: "Well Dad, Mom want's a divorce but I think she's like a baby bird and will need to be pushed out of the nest. She is so indecisive but she has to go so we can move on".

D15: Dad, I can see you trying to do things, trying to keep her here a little longer hoping she will stay indecisive or change her mind, but she isn't going to. She wants you to be friends with her because she loves you but you really have to let go.

D15: She doesn't have any romantic interest in you any more. I see my friends do the same thing. They hang on when they should let go. Mom talks to me about guys sometimes, I wouldn't be surprised if she started dating soon.

D15: Remember 5 years ago when you guys got almost all the way to a divorce then stopped it at the last minute? Then we all went through the last 5 years of your depression, Mom unhappy? Well now Mom is the one who is messed up. Do you want to try to keep her here and go through another 5 years like that?

D15: She says she wants a divorce, so why don't you give her what she says she wants? It's better for all of us so we can get on with life. I know that hearing it from me hurts but I hope it helps you to do something instead of staying stuck.

Well. I was surprised she came out with these comments. I didn't expect it. She is very intuitive and talks to W. She thinks W is acting like a teenager and said that when Mom goes she would assume Her and D10 would live with me because it's the most stable place to be.

And that's all.

I disagree. As wise and intuitive as a 15 year old is, she knows nothing of what it takes to make a mature relationship work. It is true that she sees what is happening and sees that it would be easier for all involved to just call it quits, but that doesn't mean that that is the answer.

If you think that what she said is waht you need to do, then do it. But do it because YOU feel it is the answer, not because she does.

The most intelligent and intuitive 15 year old in the world cannot have any idea what a marriage is truly like.

I realize that this sounds harsh and I truly do not mean it to be. I just can't think of another way to say it. You are doing fine, Frank. You will continue to do so no matter what you decide.

I think D15 feels comfortable talking to you. I agree that no matter how mature or intuitive a 15 year old is, they have no idea what a marriage really entails.

I think kids often want a "quick fix". They are the techno generation, after all. Things are uncomfortable and D would like to get back to being comfortable. I had similar comments from my sons. They don't understand how long and painful it is to unravel a long-term R. How could they possibly understand that when they have yet to experience it? I think they mostly want the bad feeling to go away and view a quick divorce/separation as the way to achieve that.

How did you feel about D15's comments? Other than being surprised that she voiced them, I mean?

Spitfire

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Becca1975:

As wise and intuitive as a 15 year old is, she knows nothing of what it takes to make a mature relationship work. It is true that she sees what is happening and sees that it would be easier for all involved to just call it quits, but that doesn't mean that that is the answer.

spitfire23:

I think kids often want a "quick fix". They are the techno generation, after all. Things are uncomfortable and D would like to get back to being comfortable. I had similar comments from my sons. They don't understand how long and painful it is to unravel a long-term R. How could they possibly understand that when they have yet to experience it?

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I love you both, I really do.

Todays talk with W about 'what to do with the house' and her 'moving out in the summer' are facts.

D15 wasn't saying 'I want it over quick', she was saying 'I want you to stop suffering for no reason Dad'. She does spend time with W, and if she says W only wants me as a friend then she's getting that impression from somewhere.

She lives here every day. She see's our interactions. Hugs, friendlyness. She is an observer. SHe knows W is indecisive about MOVING OUT and said so. BUT she also thinks W is positive she wants a divorce. She was calm about it. She was just stating facts as she saw it.

Don't forget, W has been 'thinking' about this on and off for at least the past 3 years. She's journaled about it a year ago when she went to Hawaii in February 2005. She even wrote that her 'friend' said that she has done what she was supposed to do with me, and it's time to go onward in her journey. This is the kind of stuff in her head. It's only now that she went far enough to actually do it.

I dunno. I just think that I can't ignore D15's observations. She lives here.

I just don't know what to do. W keeps pushing me away. Tomorrow is our 'family photo' day for our last ever family portrait. Things are very sad around here.

I'm ok, I am just thinking I shouldn't have any more expectations or hope. I was already there. Now it's even more so.

Well, you'd all be proud of me. W was very very tired when she got home. She had promised D10 she would read to her and when she came upstairs she ran into my room and jumped onto my bed. Which is of course THE most comfortable bed in the house. The master bed. She misses it a lot since she sleeps on a crappy mattress on the floor in her room downstairs. She doesn't have any money to buy a bed, and won't ask me for money.

She lay there with her eyes closed, moaning at how much she missed te bed. How good it felt since she was sore from doing so many massages today. How her legs hurt. Feet hurt.

Being a nice guy, I offered to let her sleep there and I'd sleep on the couch. She said that wasn't fair to me because the couch is uncomfortable. So then I said she could sleep in the bed WITH me. I said "Don't worry, the kids have NO ILLUSIONS about us so it wouldn't be hard to explain."

She didn't say anything and I just politely turned and left the room. I saw D10 and told her to read with mom in MY room because mom was sore. So they read on MY bed.

A little later (10:30) W was lying on the couch watching TV. She said she was just staying up for a few minutes so she could give Captain (Our African Grey Parrot) some time out of her cage. She asked me if maybe I was going to sit on the couch - here - by where her feet were, and watch tv so I could stay in the room with the bird for a little while and she could go to bed. I said ok and sat down by her feet.

She gave me the remote but stayed on the couch. A couple times she would give out a quiet 'moan' of pain from her legs and feet. I KNOW she wanted me to massage her feet. She gave me that 'look' and a smile when I looked towards her. But she didn't put them on my lap or anything to give me a 'hint'.

So,I smiled back and did nothing. She did this a couple of times and both times I smiled at her. But did nothing.

She didn't get pissed or anything at me. She was just tired and wanted to be pampered. Didn't happen. I didn't 'take the hint'.

If she had ASKED I MAY have done something. But she didn't, she wanted ME to OFFER.

One thing D15 also said earlier was that W is spoiled because she gets whatever she wants around here.

Well not any more.

So she laid around a bit and finally, with much groaning, she went to bed. No saying of 'sweet dreams' like last nite. No more games. No friendlyness. AmyC and now D15 both say 'push her out of the nest'. Well she got a nudge.

I'm going to start by not being a nice guy who is always there for her. Whether or not she actually 'leaves the nest' doesn't matter. She is going to FEEEL like she did from now on.

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How did you feel about D15's comments? Other than being surprised that she voiced them, I mean?

Spitfire

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Her comments are based on observed reality. No matter what I have done, W is still detached and still talking divorce. I noticed that her 'divorce' book is not in her room now, so I would guess it's at her office for some light reading in betweeen massages.

Her comments this morning about 'needing to do this 'journey' without me' is lame. Like 'feel sorry for me because I'm leaving a great man but I HAVE to do it.'

Give me a break.

Alpha Male time. This is MY house and this is MY family. She is asking to be on the 'outside' so as D15 says 'give her what she is asking for' Let her leave the nest.

I'm angry, but it's a good angry. It's the one that comes and tells you what you need to do. i may file a forced separation request or something.

Hey Frank, Hope you and family have an OK day today...I know it's tough. Glad to see you so strong.

I know that D15 is just a kid, but in a way, she's very observant in a way you can't be. Also, she's your kid, and like you said, time to take the family back...in a way, she was telling you how all this made HER feel...kinda unstable house.

I agree with Amy (esp. since she's been in the driver's seat) and others. Time to LET GO. For real this time. Be nice, cause you're a nice guy, but it sounds like your W is really spoiled. She also has low self-esteem and doesn't have a good concept of reality...life without you. If she can't make ends meet to live in the same house as you, how does she think it's gonna happen on the outside.

Whatever her reasons, they are hers and she seems set. Whatever, not your problem anymore. You stay focused, grounded and get the alpha male back. If she wants to leave, let her...

You've tried the loving detachment and she's still pushing...so just do nice detachment.

There is only so much of this you can take before it gets toxic for you and family. Right now, this isn't about YOU, it's about her and only she can sort that out. You're a respectful guy, so give her space and time.

I'm getting to that point myself. I am in loving detachment mode, and see progress, sort of, and I also understand that I did a LOT to hurt H and this is a direct result of it....but, at the same time, I can't go on much longer like this...while he still lies and sees whomever he wants...I trust I'll know if the time is right.

Hi, Frank.

I have been reading your thread and want you to know that I really admire the lengths you have gone to for your marriage.
That said, I will cut to the chase and say, "please listen to AmyC." I am afraid that you will lose yourself completely if you keep letting your W call the shots here.

Please, if you haven't already, go look at my thread in "Separated." It has some stuff in there about being able to let go. Trust me, I know how you feel. I have been fighting my H's decision to leave the marriage because I knew (still do know) that he would come to regret it later. But, Frank, I have to let go and let him experience this all for himself.
By telling your W that you love her and always will, you are just making her more determined to show you why you are wrong. You have to let go and show her that you have faith in her decision making processes. And, that means that until you ask her to leave (and I really hope you do at some point), the old mattress is HER CHOICE. Quit saving her.

Like you, I want to believe that my marriage will be saved. But, my H isn't on that page with me. I can't force him there. I can't force the "love is a choice" theory anymore. He needs to live it. I have been just as guilty as you at not making my spouse live with his choices. I have been bending over backwards, hoping that he will see what a great person I am.

I've shown him. He knows it. Now, he needs to miss it.

Hope you will visit my thread. Betsey and H2H have lots of good stuff on there.

Best wishes,
Pam

Thank you all for supporting me in 'letting go'. I'll talk to C on tuesday and consider options for her to move out. I DO believe that at the very least, picking my family and myself up once AGAIN, and becoming strong, for their sake, will have an effect.

I feel so weak and hurt this morning. I REALLY need to cry for an hour to let it all out. But, I can't. Giving up hurts.

I haven't been talkative to W this morning so of course she notices and says 'Are you ok?'. I only replied "I'm really tired". Her first thought will be to think I am being 'moody'. Oh, and her 'divorce' book was on the floor by her bed so I guess she's been taking it with her and reading as I suspected.

Pamela, I hear what you are saying. The mattress, her life, her OM were all her choices. I need to quit acting like I love her. I think D15 helped when she said that 'Mom wants you to be her BEST FRIEND'. She was very specific about the 'BEST FRIEND' part. No, I can't do it. My best friend wouldn't treat me this way, expecting me to happily let them break my heart.

So that's her view though, she doesn't have to deal with actually 'losing' me by leaving me. What is that all about? Guilt for having to hurt me? Why DOES she do the 'friendly' things she does? She doesn't LOVE me. Does anyone else have a WAW who does this or is it just me? Is it because I am just too nice? I should be like other 'normal' divorcees and play hardball?

And since by her statements and actions it's clear she feels like she needs to 'explore her womanhood' meaning sex, then what is that to me? She's getting more opportunities to meet men and since she is 'free' she can come on to them if she wants to. I think she is already doing that with this one guy she mentioned who 'showed up' at her office looking for accupuncture referrals because he was 'drawn to this place'. Nice line, probably works on all the single females.

Well, I don't want to be around for that. It's the same thing she did when we broke up when she was 20 except she moved away from me, went back to live with her dad, so I didn't have to bear witness to her actions then. This is just 15 years later, we've been through good and bad,I didn't 'take care' of her for a while and she lost the dedication to our marriage, all in secret so I couldn't know how serious it was. She gave me "I'm unhappy" hints but nothing this serious. But she told her friends of course.

Regarding the guy she met at her office, Tom the instructor also said it's not unusual to 'trade massages'. It's a way to get a feel for someones techniques. Somehow I don't think this is the intent. And I need to not project my own feelings into this.

Tom said that it's pretty normal for people who do those kinds of work to go to Spas looking for referrals so there is nothing 'magic' about it like she may think it is.
I spoke with her massage instructor last nite because we talk about web work I am doing with him. I mentioned that she was saying she expected her business to expand enough by summer so she could afford to move out. He laughed and said she is very naive if she thinks that getting a bunch of new clients recently means it'll keep growing that fast.

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One thing that I need to not let turn into hate is the fact that in Feb 1995 her 'counselor in training' 'friend' was advising her that her 'journey with me was over and she could move on because she was released from me'.

Then during the summer I helped her make a DVD video of her 'hot stones massage' technique AS A FRIEND and she KNEW this was in W's head and did nothing. NOTHING. Not even perhaps mention AS A FRIEND that maybe I should be looking at my life and my relationship because she 'senses' issues and maybe give some abstract examples??? That wouldn't be a conflict of condidentiality. That's something a FRIEND woud do. But she was willing to use me. Some 'spiritual' person she is.

Maybe she figured it wasn't "any of her business" and by then W and I were sort of getting along but what the hell, she feels like she can advise her on life decisions like this but doesn't feel like perhaps there is some moral conflict of acting like a friend to me to get what she wants?

It's more than that though. There were apparently several people who 'knew' W had issues but nobody was a good enough 'friend' to try to help at all. And her two 'best friends' were toxic as hell yet treated me like their friend.

More than that, I have never been able to understand what she sees in those two women. They are pleasant enough but their lives are far from 'successful' when it comes to relationships.

I'm just ranting about this, but it's another lesson learned.

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So, how DOES she feel about me really? Any guesses? How do you go from 'best friend and lover but secretly unhappy' in September to 'Adultress and now divorcing ' because she "can't stay with me and go through her growth". What is really being said? And is D15 right about her observations? It's just over, that's the way it is.

A lot of tension in the house this morning. W is irritated by D10 and it seems like life in general. Today will be fun. Not.