I'm like you, I'd rather get hit between the eyes with the facts and decide upon a plan of action. I don't understand Bube's inaction either and it's very frustrating.
If I saw my mother hitting my younger sister, I'd stop her. This whole family is afraid of this woman. That alone says it all.
Bube, only you can stop this insanity. What has to happen to make you end it? Seriously. I'm afraid that when your D's actually are on their own, they won't want anything to do with either of you.
Like Cobra, I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but having been in your girls position, my heart breaks for them. And for you. You deserve to be happy and have some peace in your life. I don't know how you have the energy or heart to go to work everyday and come home and referee your W and girls.
What would happen if you just sit your wife down while the girls are gone and tell her that until she can change her behavior (long term), she has to leave within the next week? Why are you afraid of her being gone?
I appreciate your post. I’m a big boy and I can handle honesty. But as you might expect, I disagree with a lot of what you said. Some of this I’ve said before, but I’m going to say it again and, hopefully, expand upon it a bit.
Number one, enough with the A. You people on the BB are making WAAAAY too much out of it. It was a long time ago. I don’t feel guilty about it. W does not hold it over my head. I don’t hold it over my own head. I don’t judge myself harshly for having done it. It’s over. It was a long time ago. It’s history. Water under the bridge.
I think there are two things that are causing this unnatural dwelling on the A. One is that I confessed it after I had been here for quite some time. The other is that it has cropped up from time to time in various posts. Let me try to clarify. I know that my decision to get into the A was wrong. I started out here being mostly honest, but I was still trying to paint myself as the good guy. An innocent party suffering under the mistreatment of W. We all know that’s not the case – ever. We’re both guilty. But it took me a while to come clean, and when I did, there was a lot of discussion about why I had concealed it for so long. IOW, the timing of the revelation caused it to get undue attention and be examined much more closely than it would have if I had come clean at the beginning. But it wasn’t any inordinate amount of guilt that made me keep it to myself. It wasn’t the bag of rocks. I just wanted to be seen as the good guy. Also, I had dealt with the A and didn’t want to rehash it. Like I said in the last paragraph, it’s ancient history.
The second issue is that it keeps coming up. I’m assuming that it’s raised its ugly head yet again because I mentioned it in this thread. Believe me, my mention of the A in this thread had nothing whatsoever to do with the A. I only mentioned it as a way to illustrate one of the differences in the way W and I relate to the kids. I never mentioned the A, but years ago, in a fit of anger, W told them about it. A very distorted view too. She used it to try to hurt me, to get the girls on her side. About two years ago, one of them finally told me about it. My response was almost exactly what I wrote here: I admitted to it, I told them that it was wrong, and I told them that it wasn’t any of their business and that I wasn’t going to discuss it with them. The whole point of my bringing it up in this context was to point out that W fights dirty and that I refuse to sink to that level. That’s it. No big guilt complex. Now can we drop the A? It’s simply no longer germane to anything.
The next overriding issue seems to be the abuse of the children. I’ll agree that all of you may have a point with this one, but it doesn’t seem that way from here. If W isn’t mentally and emotionally abusive, she’s certainly right on the cusp of it, but I just don’t think that the girls are in any physical danger. She hasn’t hit any of them in a long time until this dog kicking thing. And we all know about W and dogs. I’ve long contended that given the choice between any or all of our family or her dogs, we would be gone. She’s said very plainly that she likes dogs better than people. D14 just did the one and only thing guaranteed to set W off. (That fact might be worth pursuing…)
Another thing is that I think all of you have this distorted view of W as some horrible Wicked Witch of the West character who is either abusing her children or busily plotting and thinking up new ways to do so. That’s simply not true. The vast majority of the time she’s really a pretty good mother. She’s no June Cleaver, but she’s not an ogre either. Now I know that this sounds like battered wife syndrome, and I admit that there are a lot of similarities. But things have improved in the last few years rather than escalating as they normally do in domestic abuse.
I agree that I need to be more assertive and stand up to my bullying W. Isn’t that what I’ve been saying? Isn’t that the very thing that others here have just complimented me on doing? What am I missing here?
As far as counseling for the kids, the older ones have done that. Both with my/our C and with another one. The bottom line is that they are incredibly well adjusted. They’ve learned to deal with W much better than I have. D14 has gone before and will no doubt go some more. But the C says that now is not the time, and regardless of what you may think, I think this C rocks.
And while I’m on that subject, let me answer your questions and clarify a few things. No, I have not been seeing him for ten years. It’s more like sixteen. W and I started seeing him sixteen years ago. We went regularly for somewhere around a year and a half. Since then, there have been a couple of six or seven session visits, but it’s been sporadic. It hasn’t been sixteen years of C. He diagnosed the NPD quite early and has seen nothing since then to call that diagnosis into question. He’s not slow on seeing things, and he did much of the year and a half pro bono, so I can’t buy the milking thing either. You hit it on the third one though; he said that mentioning it was pointless since I wasn’t prepared to deal with it.
I also believe that I need to empower myself. The C agrees. He’s said so repeatedly and quite forcefully. Why would you say that it’s been in very gentle terms? Wouldn’t you say that the email I quoted to you was pretty strong? Let me quote him again:
Quote: Make her leave. That is the only way you can get control. You have to tell her that it is time for her to grow up. She is creating problems with the whole family. Tell her to leave VB. Please tell her to leave. Do not beg her to stay. If you do she will think she has the right to make everybody sorry for how they have mistreated her. Make her leave.
What exactly is gentle about that? What would he have had to have said for you to think he wasn’t being gentle with me? I repeat, he has repeatedly and forcefully told me what needs to be done. It’s me that has resisted.
Why was I so resistant to his advice in the past? I don’t know. I guess part of it was my own perception that even though I was a contributor, W was the bigger part of the problem and he should be working on her. I was resentful that he wanted me to look at my little problems when there was this giant elephant of W’s issues there in the room with us. I wanted him to help me fix her. It didn’t occur to me that working on me was working on her until after I came here. Another part was that in some part of myself, I thought I was smarter than he was. I thought I knew better. I know that it doesn’t make sense to go to someone for help when you think you know more than they do, but that thought was buried inside me. I wasn’t really conscious of it. He has helped me see that in myself.
What he has said about me mostly revolves around one simple issue. I need to grow a backbone. I need to be more assertive. I need to be more decisive. I need to be less passive-aggressive and just say what’s on my mind. I’m working on those and I think I’m making progress. Apparently, a lot of people here think I am too. The C has also helped me to come to the realizations I tried to articulate in my last post. He’s helped me to see that W has no real power over me, that she can’t hurt me.
And once again, thank you for your reply. Although it may seem like it, I’m not dismissing what you’ve said.
I don't think we all (and I know you weren't replying specifically to me) think/or believe your W is some wicked witch....most of us realize we are only hearing portions of your daily/weekly/monthly interactions
I think as far as the abuse thing goes most people are very concerned for you and your children....and rightly so. No, she may not behave this way on a daily or regular basis....BUT she does have outbursts that are completely inappropriate. The thing that I believe really bothers me is that she DID lash out this time. Speaking from the perspective of someone who has been in abusive situation....it only takes that one time for it to begin really escalating and getting worse.
True, there was an added dimension (the dogs)....BUT it's simply not reasonable for her to punish your D the way she did over that....that's what has me concerned with her behavior. Behavior like that can leave such a lasting impression on a child. I think it hits so close to home for me for a couple of reasons #1 my first H was abusive.....#2 my father didn't control his anger with me, I was the 1st person he'd see everyday....and if he had a bad day....I was the person he'd take it out on. Did he hit me? No, but let me tell you the yelling and screaming I endured will always stay with me. To this day because of his screaming at me....I cannot stand to be around adults that are yelling and screaming. I don't care if they are cheering for a football game, it makes me edgy. I remember feeling like a dog cowering down at someone. I couldn't help but feel....your D felt this way too......and it's something that stays with you.
I do believe though you absolutely must stand up for your daughters whenever your W's behavior is out of line. I know she may not be have this way everyday....but WHEN she does behave out of line....you simply MUST not let her get away with it....if you are there, you MUST intervene. If you aren't present when her behavior happens, you MUST address it with her when you find out about it. You MUST be your daughters' champion and not only draw a very firm boundary on inappropariate behavior towards them.....they need to be able to depend on your protection and support.
As for your A....I bet you wish you'd never brought that up huh? LOL I don't know if there is any merit to whether or not it has an affect on what's going on with you guys today or not....but I don't really think it does. I think, as you said, it's history.
Personaly, I believe the issues you guys are facing are more stemming from #1 your passive aggressive behavior and unwillingness to confront her. Yes, you are doing better here but I think you are going to find that in the very near future you are really going to have to do some things you never thought you would, that are outside of your normal charater.... and #2 her NPD. Her NPD is something that will not go away. It's something, as you've learned, is not only nearly impossible to treat, but also nearly impossible to live with. Personally, I don't think she'd listen to your C if he did tell her she was NPD...I believe she'd look at him and think "he's just trying to pin all of our problems on ME."...that's part of NPD. Do I think someone should tell her....well yes, do I think she'll listen....NOPE.
Just wanted you to know....you aren't going unheard.
that's part of NPD. Do I think someone should tell her....well yes, do I think she'll listen....NOPE. That's so true GEL. And unfortunately, her "awareness" of her NPD diagnosis will most likely have very little effect on her behavior. V-Bube, I'm sure that is why the C is directing most of his advice at you directly. It's like asking someone with a serious mental illness to be responsible for decisions that they are just not capable of. Granted she does not have an Axis 1 diagnosis (that I know of), but Axis II diagnoses (personality disorders) are extremely serious. I know you are struggling with your own issues V-Bube, but my assumption is that your C is looking towards you to make healthier decisions for your F. He has been very direct in his advice, more so than many C would be. That says a lot about the level of intervention he feels is necessary at this point. Sometimes when you are immersed in a problem, you cannot even see it anymore. Like water to a fish. From an outside observer, it seems obvious your children are going to greatly suffer from what they have had to deal with. The bottom line is that they are incredibly well adjusted. They’ve learned to deal with W much better than I have. I just find the possibility of that slim to none.
Quote: The bottom line is that they are incredibly well adjusted. They’ve learned to deal with W much better than I have.
Quote:
I just find the possibility of that slim to none.
Bube, sometimes there is a great deal of damage done to children just by learning to deal.
My father was an alcoholic who could turn violent and we never knew when it would happen. So, we learned to spend a lot of time "reading the signs" - doing our damndest to not do or say anything that would instigate an occurance.
Which means that we felt an incredible sense of responsibility for our father's actions. A burden, frankly, that no child should have to live under.
The unpredictability (and these things only occurred a few times a year) - meant that we were on guard all the time. Ever watching, ever stressing.
It also meant that we all had roles that we had to play. Some of us became the family clowns and distractors, in the hopes that we could diffuse the tension. Some of us became the "blamed" person.
Those roles never go away. All of my siblings freeze in extremely emotional situations - trying to distract it, diffuse it, eliminate it. We are all conflict avoiders - if you're already in constant conflict, who wants to actively volunteer for more?
We all feel a hyper-responsibilty for other people's feelings and actions. And since we aren't really capable of controlling other people's feelings and actions, we all deal with an ongoing sense of guilt and failure - one that permeates our very soul, when things aren't going well; and the inability to really enjoy things when they are going well - because we know how damn quickly that can disappear.
And even with all that sense of responsibility, I have discovered that we all deal with a strong sense of dis-empowerment with little ability to impact our own life in any meaningful way.
Because, with all our thought, efforts and actions - he would still get drunk and still get violent. We could only bow down, take the violence - both verbal and physical - and wait for it to blow over. We're all pretty stoic as a result.
So, yeah, children can deal, they can adjust, but the lessons they are learning are ones that will frankly, haunt them for the rest of their lives.
If you think you have had little power in your relationship, imagine how powerless your children must feel. Who will be their advocate?
Please don't take this as piling on. I'm 50 years old now and still dealing with the fallout of my parents' failings. I loved them then and I love them now. But they harmed us. Recognizing the issues is a big part of the process, but it doesn't make them go away.
Bube, The fact that D19 wouldn't intervene while her sister was getting hit with a dog leash says volumes about what they think of your wife.
I know she's not ugly all of the time but she obviously does it enough that they are afraid of her on bad days and only dread her on good days. Although they might not be in imminent physical danger, the mental relief they'd feel at having her out of the house would be worth it, don't you think?
It bothers me to think of how she treats you within your marital relationship but it sickens me to think of how she has made your daughters feel over the years--second to animals, dreading the next outburst, the guilt-heaping and pity parties and general narcissism.
I think you're doing great, Bube. The changes you've made in the last week will propel you on to solidifying those boundaries. I wish you well.
Mrs. NOP Just seconding your post and the inability to really enjoy things when they are going well - because we know how damn quickly that can disappear. as I grew up in a home where verbal outbursts and threatened or attempted spankings with belts were common. Lets just say it paid to be fast at carrying out hastily devised exit plans.
ZB, I am not saying your kids will be affected the same way as Mrs. NOP or I were, but Mrs. NOP's point is very valid.
I also wanted to you ZB that I can relate to your passive aggressiveness (PA).
I have been trying to be more aware of what happens in my R with BB when I or she doesn’t do something about conflicts. PA is a common consequence of stuffing feelings and trying to smooth things over instead of dealing with the problem.
Yesterday BB had a problem (displayed=put-downs about me) with me eating some pickles. I stated why I ate them last week. She did not agree with my POV then said "just forget what I (she) said and act like I (she) never said it."
I told BB once something is said it can never be forgotten and trying to ignore the issue and acting like it never happened was just another way to avoid working on the underlying problem and commonly results in PA activities later.
If I would have let BB's comment go, I am sure one or both of us would have had some PA like feelings and maybe some PA actions would have been carried out. Maybe resentful feelings would have continued much longer than necessary.
My point? Good for you seeing that PA'ness is an issue in your M. Most likely, if you improve your skills in this area a little more, you will solve more R issues and feel better about yourself, your position as a H, and a father within the family.
About your C not telling your W she displays NPD traits. I think she should be told. What she does about it, well that is another issue.
If she is upset by the Dx, tell her to get a second opinion or how ever many opinions as she wants. Express concern for her benefit, not that you or anyone else wants to label her or find fault or point a finger at her.
This is the elephant in the living room that everyone is not talking about for some reason, but it is OK to talk about the elephant poop???????
I can see your academic reasons for not feeling guilty about your A ( it is over and past) and I can see your reasons for staying married from an ethical POV. Working on the bitter medicine steps of what it might take to protect your kids is the issue for now.
Advice from me??? Well "My Way or the Highway" works sometimes but that might be too strong. I know Go With the Flow" is wrong. Sounds like what you have been doing lately is working so add to it and step up the pace by implementing changes faster than you did previously.
OK, OK, OK, you win. GEL, MrsNOP, HP, you’re right. I’m sure that the verbal abuse has left its mark on them. I also agree that in some ways, the verbal abuse is worse than anything physical. When somebody gives you a good whack, it hurts for a little while, then it’s gone. Words and the feelings they engender can stick around forever. I do see that. MrsNOP, there is special power in your words. While my home life with my FOO was basically pretty good, I can see where I still bear the scars from my parents’ mistakes. I see the truth in what you say.
I’m probably just making excuses here, but there are several things that come to mind when I think about getting C help for the girls. For one thing, they don’t want it. I have talked to the older two and they aren’t interested. I can’t know what’s really going on in their heads, but they claim that they don’t need it. I’m paraphrasing here, but the gist of what they say seems to come down to, “Mom needs help – not me.” They seem to have a good grasp on the fact that their mother has a personality disorder and they simply discount anything she says during one of her rages. I don’t know if it’s damaging them in any way, but they tell me that they just consider the source and ignore her.
Another thing that enters the picture is their age. As I said, D20 and D18 seem to have a good handle on things. They may very well need help in dealing with the baggage W and I have saddled them with, but neither seems inclined to seek that help – even when it’s offered up on a silver platter. Since I don’t see that any further damage to their psyches is in the offing, I’m not going to try to force them. In any case, they’ll both be gone from home within the next six months.
D14 is another issue. As I’ve mentioned in the past, she has a lot of problems and a lot of issues that need to be addressed. All I can really say about her is that she will get counseling, whether she wants to or not. I’m just trusting my C when he says that right now is not the time. I’ve disagreed with him many times in the past, but in every single case where I’ve listened to him, he’s been right. But the time is coming, and she will get some help with this and several other issues.
I do stand up for the girls and I do intervene when I’m there. I think the fact that it so rarely happens when I’m around bears testimony to that. I do talk to W about her behavior when she does something like that and I’m not there. I haven’t drawn any real boundaries, but I have made it very clear that behavior like that is not acceptable. And HP, D18 did try to intervene when she heard W hitting D14. I can’t remember if I copied that part of her email or not, but she did go into D14’s room and tell her mother to stop. She told W that she, not D14 had called my mother. (She didn’t know about the dog thing at that time.)
LFL, your comments are quite accurate as well. The thing about the kids being well adjusted is, of course, relative. They seem to have done much better than I at just realizing that their mother is ill and dealing with it. As I have said, for the most part they just try to stay away from her.
I have a lunchtime meeting I need to get to, so I’ll cut this off here. I’ll check back this afternoon and elaborate if needed.
I'm not surprised your older daughters might say they don't need counseling....and they may very well have a good grasp on things (but the affects truly are astounding). I'm more concerned about your youngest daughter and her anger etc. I believe she's internalizing an awful lot of pain and anger and she's most definitely the one who needs to be in counseling.
Ok...so you do stand up to your W when she acts out and you are around, which you say doesn't happen often. So am I understanding you correctly? She behaves inappropriately more often when you aren't present? When I say that I don't mean that she necesarily pre-meditates that's what's going to happen either...it's just when things tend to happen?
If that's the case then you are stuck in a situation where it's your D's words against hers right, as to the facts of events? That would be difficult. BUT...since she has had a history of acting out (verbally or whatever) against the girls....I would assume you probably put more weight towards what the girls say happens....since you have also been on the receiving end of her behavior. If so, then I do see a boundary that needs to be drawn....and I know you are working your way to setting a boundary....you're getting there.
Basically the boundary as I see it would be...."if you feel it's appropriate to yell and scream at the girls and I, if you feel it's appropriate to put your animals before your family, and if you feel you cannot treat us with respect then you need to live elsewhere. I am no longer going to tolerate this behavior from you and I'm not going to allow you to treat our daughters this way. You CAN control your behavior...however if you feel you cannot control your behavior, I am here to help you pack."
Now...of course this is just my way of putting things.....and it's only an example. But I'd say it's a boundary. I threw in there the snippet about packing too...because I'm pretty sure anytime you try to set/enforce a boundary she's going to be likely to throw the "I'm leaving" card.....back on the table. Pre-empt it.
Just my 2-cents. I'm sure others will have better feedback for ya!
I may have had the wrong impression of the shadow your A was holding over the relationship and your assertiveness, so thanks for clearing that up. But my impression that you sit back and wait for others to tell you what to do didn’t come out of thin air. This matter of whether to kick your wife out or not was just full of indecision on your part. And your posts then and now still sound more like your running to the defense of your wife instead of setting your resolve to draw a line in the sand.
My impression is that if you ever did draw such a line, she would simply smudge it out, then look to see what you would do about it. She seems to be very confident that you will do nothing. This latest episode is just another notch in her belt. This seems to be what GEL is saying too. You may think telling your wife that her behavior is unacceptable, and by doing that you are being assertive, but my guess is that for a NPD, your “threats” are irrelevant. It seems the history in your home bears this out.
I think you need to significantly ramp up the level of your confrontations with her, set some strong boundaries, and do so at a much quicker pace. The surety as well as the severity of those boundaries is important to her. And she will test them, without a doubt.
In spite of not working, she does have considerable power. She can get a lawyer, run up legal bills, force you to pay half, get half the assets, etc. This in itself is quite scary and enough to hold many people back from divorce. It was a major consideration for me. But your wife is different. As an NPD, I wonder if she already has in her mind the segregation of assets except for the actual execution of that. In other words, does she have the sense of loyalty to you that you seem to have toward her, which seems to keep you in check? I would doubt she does and that there is anything you can do to change that either.
What I am trying to say is that she may already be set in her “battle” position, but you have not come to face this, so you avoid the matter. She won’t move off of those positions until you make her, so avoiding the battlefield plays into her hands, to the detriment of your kids. Letting D18 confront your wife is letting her do the dirty work for you. You need to drop the hammer and let your girls see it, so they know, feel and experience the sense of protection from YOU (not each other) that they have never had. There is no reason you can’t do this after coming home, well after D18 has done her part. It will tell your wife she has no place to run or hide.
Like everyone says, the girls need help. I am not surprised that you take the comments of D18 and D20 as the final word of counseling. It is simply avoidance on your part. What makes you think they have anywhere near the maturity, knowledge or experience to know whether they need counseling or not? Our counselor says the more kids resist coming to counseling, the more they need it. If they have no issues, fears, vulnerabilities, going to counseling would be about like going to the doctor. They may prefer not to go, but there is not such a strong emotional opposition to it. Listen to what everyone here is telling you. All three need help. The two older ones have simply learned how to bury it. They could actually be the ones in more need of help. At least the youngest is letting her anger out.
I think your thinking is completely backward on this and I think your defense against taking them to counseling sounds like more denial. It sounds to me like you could have a lot of shame issues under the surface, coupled with a lot of ego and fear, that is making the foundation for your denial. My dad is just like this. He always tries to be the nice guy, to not confront anyone until backed into a corner. Once there, he will come out fighting, so he convinces himself that he is not pushed around and does stand up for himself.
As long as he surrounds himself with passive people, everything is fine. Bring the NPD into the picture and he slowly backs away until the consequences are life and death before speaking up. But that is not how strength should be used. Protection of others means standing up before things reach that point, keeping the environment safe at all times, or as much as possible. Everyone else has already commented on the mental anguish these kids are going through because they never know when the next shoe is going to drop and when they will have to stand up to their mom.
If you’ve not had to deal with this as a kid, then you’re lucky. But that also means you have no idea what your kids are experiencing. Sorry to be so harsh. Again, I don’t mean to be offensive, just laying out the feelings I get from reading your comments.
I think she should be told. What she does about it, well that is another issue.