Personally I'd ask the C why he didn't tell her. Perhaps knowing would help in a similar way that being diagnosed with depression can help you recognize when it is "acting up" and allow you to step outside yourself and intellectualize it to deal with it. I may be all wrong as the nature of NPD may preclude that kind of introspection, but I'd at least ask the C.
Gone the carvings and those who left their mark. Gone the kings and queens, now only the rats hold sway.
I don’t know, Chrome, I don’t feel like a man-o-steel. In fact, I feel like a failure for not making her leave. The C was very clear that I should make her leave. He said it repeatedly. And I didn’t. Sure, he said that I stood up to her, but it really doesn’t feel that way. It feels like she got away with it again. She treated the girls like sh!t, she created all sorts of uproar in the family, and she’s walking away unscathed again. And by letting her pretend that it never happened, I’m letting her.
The only good I see out of it is a change in my own attitude and perspective. Like I said before, I actually wanted her to leave. That’s a first. I absolutely believed that she was leaving, and I didn’t care. I didn’t care and the girls didn’t care. In fact, D18 said that if W left, it would be better for them. They also offered to step up to the plate and start doing more of the cooking.
When I think about it, leaving is her only weapon and it’s been pretty much negated. She doesn’t work, so there’s no financial impact. The girls won’t care. I’ve discovered that I’m not scared of her leaving any more either. For those of you who remember the Spectre of the Gun episode of Star Trek, the bullets aren’t real; they’re specters, shadows. They can’t hurt me. At least attitudinally, I think this has been a paradigm shift. But I guess time will tell.
You have no idea how powerful your last post is. The realizations you have... the illusion that is gone... if you truly feel that way, your life is about to change. Doesn't mean its going to be smoother. It is just going to change dramatically.
I have the biggest flippin' smile on my face.... I'd back the Zbube team in Vegas now with all my chips.
I'm echoing Corrie....your thinking is changing regarding your W and your R. This is a good thing!!!! No, perhaps you didn't do what your C suggested in assisting her to leave, but you DID do things differently this time. Changes are beginning to take place within you....the paradigm IS shifting. Because of this you are going to become stronger in this R and be able to stand up for yourself and your daughters in ways you never thought you would.
You definitely took a step in the right direction.
Hi bube, I'm not surprised that she backed down and now she's acting like everything is okay. As the others have pointed out, she has nowhere to go and she knows it.
A couple of weeks ago, my bf had a temper tantrum in my kitchen. He had been having a bad day and took something I said the wrong way. He FLUNG a package of sausage in my sink and stomped out of the room. I was taken by surprise and said, "What on earth was THAT about?"
Literally FIVE SECONDS later he came back in the kitchen with a big smile on his face and said, "What?" in total innocence.
I was picking the sausage out of the sink, and I said, "Now you're too embarrassed to admit that you threw the sausage, and you're pretending it never happened."
THAT blew his cover and really set him off. He accused me of not wanting him to be there, getting on his case, riding him, etc. I was still flummoxed.
Finally he said he was leaving and went out in his truck and sat there with the motor running for about 10 minutes. Finally he came back in and apologized-- a MAJOR step for him. He apologized again the next day.
My point being that if you let her get away with pretending as though it never happened, she will take you up on it, but if you call her on it, it will likely lead to a bigger scene. This is not a permanent change.
I don't understand your C's reason for not telling her about the NPD. If it were me, I'd certainly want a name for what was causing me to fcuk up my life. Telling her seems more compassionate that not telling her.
Edited to add: our posts crossed, but I agree that you've experienced a shift. I'm sure she will pick up on it. That's a good thing. BUT you cannot realistically expect any permanent change in her. The NPD is outside her conscious control IMHO.
Yes you are a mon-o-steel (sorry, been around Rastafarians too much lately). You are trying everything to make it work with a woman with whom most people would have found a way to extricate themselves from a long time ago. If it does happen that you two S/D, you will have that mental security that comes from knowing you tried everything.
Ditto on the great revelations too. Good work.
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
Bube, What if you were to let the "I'm leaving, no I'm not I was just bluffing" stuff ride but request that she apologize to D14?
That way, you are not sweeping all of it under the carpet but at least not replaying the whole thing aaaaaaaaaand you are sticking up for your daughters, which they desperately need.
My first wife was NPD. I diagnosed her when I was reading the DSM-IV in order to understand a disability case I was handling. I just remember answering "yes" to almost all of the questions the manual asked about a person's behavior.
It will likely do no good to tell her that she has NPD. Furthermore, there is likely little she could do about it if she even had the ability to understand its effect on the people in her life. As I recall, "long term, inpatient therapy" was about the only thing that had any chance of helping the person with NPD. How many NPDs would subject themselves to that? More likely, their response would be, "it's not my FAULT that you can't please me."
Z, you have done the biggest, best thing you could have done at this point in the process: you have adjusted your attitude. (It's the only thing over which you have 100 percent control, you know.) When you're ready, your next step will appear before you as a choice. You, with your attitude-change, will have to make the choice, and it won't be the same one you might have made a year or two ago, because you're not the same person you were back then.
I see you as a man whom life is tempering in order to help you make the right choices for yourself and for your daughters.
You did not fail by not making her leave. I am sure there will be other chances right around the corner.
Perhaps maybe you could do something simple like put the title to the van in her name. Or mention you are going to so that will not be a issue in her mind. So she sees you are not holding her back you are opening the door for her.
Just a thought.
I think you are doing great upheaving ones life reguardless how much it needs to be done is a hard choice to make.
This is the third time I have started to post a reply on this thread. Each time before I hesitated because I did not want to sound too harsh. I empathize deeply with your situation and the impossibility of dealing with a narcissist. But I also am in Lil’s camp in my frustration over the effect of all this on your girls and the role you have played in their pain.
I believe that we are all here on his earth to learn our own set of lessons in our path toward development/enlightenment/nirvana/heaven/whatever. It is up to us to decide how and when we wish to learn those lessons, if we even choose to learn them at all. But each of us does nor operate in a vacuum. We impact others in our lives, those we depend on and those who depend on us. So any move we make can help or hurt someone else in some way. But we cannot remain still either, for that can be equally devastating, as I am seeing in your situation.
Perhaps maintaining the status quo and putting up with your wife’s abuse was the right thing to do at one point in your life, especially when your kids were small. Assuming the abuse at the time was limited. But things have changed since then and this may not be the best thing for them now. It seems everyone is saying this very thing to you, even your own daughters and your counselor, yet you seem determined to keep your head in the sand. Why is this?
Your posts have always given me the impression of concern for your wife, of wanting to do the right thing, for moral or religious reasons, but I fail to see how any of those reasons are powerful enough to overcome a parent’s concern over the safety of their children. Only in the rarest cases will people not take action if their children are being harmed at school, by their friends or someone at church. So your past justifications for not splitting with your wife, or at least taking a more proactive position to protect your children, ring hollow to me.
The most common situation I am aware of (and others please correct me if they can think of others) in which parents do not protect their children is when the parent(s) is/are the one causing the harm themselves. The power of denial can overcome almost everything else. This is not to say I think you are harming your kids, obviously your wife is, but I do not see how you are protecting them either. And therefore I feel you are equally culpable (which is why I have been reluctant to post, but here I go).
I also feel the major factor keeping you from protecting your kids is your concern for yourself. I think you have hidden this deep within your defensive walls. I know at one time you had an affair, but to me, why you are content to bear that cross for so many years says more about you than it does about your wife. I am guessing that you reached a point long ago when you decided to take matters in your own hands and find happiness. But you lost your nerve, backed down, and came scurrying home. Your wife seize upon the opportunity to keep you groveling ever since. So you had an affair! You did not kill anyone! You were not perfect then, did not have full knowledge of why and what you were doing. But you didn’t operate in a vacuum. Your wife had a lot to do with your leaving. You are only 50% to blame. You’ve paid your dues, so stop feeling guilty for it! For the sake of your kids, enough already!
Also, you’ve read enough on this board to know that your wife has no right to keep holding this over your head for so long. Or is she? Maybe you are holding it over your own head. In fact, I can’t see how she can hold it over you if you don’t let her. It comes back to what Corri has been preaching. Stop giving away your power. Stand on your own two feet. Create your own values and beliefs that are necessary for the safety and well being of yourself AND YOUR KIDS, regardless of what anyone else says, INCLUDING THE CHURCH.
I see your lesson in life as needing to become assertive and stand up to bullies, to become your own person. The longer you take to overcome this hurdle, the greater the pressure will become, forcing you to eventually act. Exactly as Lil has warned you, this could reach the point one day that one of your daughters is injured or worse because of the chaotic home environment. It seems the weaker ones always pay the price. Will that be your wake up call? Won’t that be a little too late?
You decide what you need to do for your kids, then do it. No matter how deep your fear of abandonment, of retaliation from your wife, of betraying the church or anything else, go through with it until your children are physically and emotionally safe! Get your kids the counseling they need. Who cares what your counselor says! Why are you letting this man dictate to you what you should do with your kids? These are your kids! Get a second opinion.
I have some suspicions about your counselor too. I seem to recall you saying you have been seeing him for 10(?) years? Why has it taken him this long to come to a diagnosis of NPD for your wife? If he knew about it long ago, why did he take so long to tell you? Either he is slow on seeing things, or he is milking you financially, or he did not think you were ready to hear the truth. Which could it be?
Again, I believe you need to empower yourself. Many are more dependent on your strength and leadership than you may realize, or want to acknowledge. But that is the case. Your children’s future depends on it. I would even say that your marriage depends on it. Currently I believe it is impossible for you to salvage a relationship with the power balance as it is now. The past 10 years seems to have confirmed this. How many more years do you need to erase all doubt?
You counselor is telling you what you need to do, but seems to be saying it in very gentle terms, so as not to be too direct or to offend you. Why would he take that tone? Have you been defensive to taking his advice in the past? Perhaps you could share with us some of the comments your counselor has made about you. What do you need to work on, what has he identified as some of your core issues that you need to overcome?
I think that trying to find the solution to your problems within your wife is what has been keeping you frozen like a deer in the headlights. You cannot negotiate with her. So the real answer is within you.
One last note, I know others have criticized me for being too hard in some of my comments, so let me say that I do not mean to be offensive. I am concerned and I think some straight shooting words are needed. I intend for my comments to be positive advice, though I know they may sound very critical. I mean no offense.
