Great points with the boundary (SP) setting. I have to detach myself such as space-time-My bond with my son and me only until god brings her back.
"A man of knowledge uses words with restraint, and a man of understanding is even-tempered. Even a fool is thought wise if he keeps silent, and discerning if he holds his tongue." Proverbs 17:27-28
Quote: Is that about right? Boundaries are not so much about others respecting you as you respecting yourself?
That's about the way I see it....truthfully, if it were about respect for you, then the first boundary would have never been crossed (i.e., exclusivity of the R). The boundaries are about respecting yourself.
Interestingly, you mention that it involves a certain amount of deception when it doesn't have to....This is something I had said to my W not too long ago when she was hiding her phone card to make her calls to OM during the day. I finally said, look, you have a cell phone and we have long distance, why spend needless money on phone cards if you're going to do it anyway. Besides, he knows how to dial a phone....however, I think the deception is part of the "game" really. Part of it is that they know they are doing wrong and throwing it in our faces is even wronger. On some level, they still care about our feelings.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
Thanks for the link OT. I read a bit and have a question, one that is central to my R problems.
As I have said, I have been, and continue to be gone quite a bit between day job work and my outside photography work. Because of this, my W has always had tons of "me time" to be alone, whatever. She also had, for the last year, she's had all day free from kids, etc. Now please, don't jump on me for that. She tells me herself that she has tons of free time and such so that's not just me speculating what she may or may not do in the days. Actually, a lot of our problems are centered around her wanting me home more often and more than that, "around" more when I was home instead of being in another room, etc. Now she gets to this point where she wants "me time" durring all this that is going on and such but STILL she gets upset or unhappy when I have to go work in the evenings or weekends. WTH? So it's not just having space and freedom, it's WHEN she has the freedom that matters. And it's important that I have a life, but only when SHE is ok with me being gone? Is this normal or is my W possibly as controlling as I am? It's what I have never understood. If she was gone as much as I used to be, I would want nothing more than to spend time with her. She seems to just get resentful and like I am somehow interrupting her life if I ask her to spend time with me when I am home. It's really hard to figure out. Is it that I didn't put her first and ditch some of my "life" in favor of her when SHE asked me to? I ask all this because it's the pattern I see most likely to repeat as I get busy with wedding season.
GH, I know that you've heard this song before, but do you think you could ask her what she would like in terms of your work schedule? Maybe the next time she brings up something about your going to work on an evening or weekend, you could decide to have a real conversation on the topic and create a plan together that meets both of your needs.
The LORD is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth." (Psalm 145:18)
I have asked, and she always just bows to whatever is best for me. Most of the time she is ok with it. The problem is that my photography gigs are the ones that cut into family/her time and once booked, I cannot back out so if the day/night comes and she is in a mood, or a state where she wants me around and doesn't want me to go, there is not much I can do about it without just abandoning my career. Bailing out on a wedding at the last minute is a sure way to not be a wedding photographer anymore. To be fair, the conflict has never really been about that though because it is a fairly new situation, and it pays pretty well. It has been more about my sports photography and as I have admitted here before, I did abuse the situation and was gone more than I should have. That has been fixed but maybe too little too late. My day job schedule is not really an issue. I have offered to move my shift so I can help out with the kids in the morning, but she says she doesn't need me to do that, or even want me to because then I would be home later in the afternoon and that would be worse. SO, long winded answer. The short one is yes, I have asked her, and I have altered my schedule and it still seems to be an issue sometimes.
I was just reading a post on Heather's thread (this seems to be my pattern lately, read, then think of something to post on my thread) and I had a thought. Jabez told Heather to take some form of relationship inventory. What it was is not the issue. What it made me think of adds a little to my sadness of late. God, how I would LOVE it if my W would do something like that, something that would give me clues as to what she wants. My W has never been one to communicate or work on our R. If it was something that seemed artificial to her, like some kind of quiz or something, she immediately cast it off. She has always been one to believe that if the R is right, it just worked. I have never believed that at all, but over the years, I have just accepted this about her and I think it has led to conflict avoidance in a lot of cases. It sucks to be in a situation where your partner is totally unwilling to actually address your relationship in any meaningful way. It gives you a sense that anything that becomes a negative force in the R may just be left to exist rather than address it and try to work through it. Actually, that is what happened in most cases, and a large contributing factor in where we are today. I just hope this will not be the ultimate hindrance to us reconciling. It seems like she will, at some point, have to talk about "us" and her feelings. If not, how do we ever get to a point where we are both aware of the other's needs and are willing to meet them? Communication is the issue in many if not most of the sitches here, and in my case, it's a total lack of open, honest communication about our relationship. On any other topic, we can communicate effectively, whether it's the kids, weather, politics, etc. When it comes to us, she somehow thinks that should be off limits to talk about. Oh, and for those that know my sitch and maybe have a feel for my history, I assure you, this attitude is not a new development, or a reaction by her to trying to communicate and me not listening. IF she did try, she did it non-verbally, and maybe, just maybe my non-reaction did cause a rift, but I am not a mind reader so...
I don't know how similar any one else's sitch is or their SO's, but I see what you saying as being one of the main sticking points in moving forward in my R right now. My W has always sort of looked at things the same way...R's just "happen" and you shouldn't have to work on them to make it work...sort of a romanticized view if you ask me. The other problem is that she is unwiling to verbalize her feelings, emotions, needs, etc. Years ago, I remember initiating conversations designed to get a better feel for what she needed in oour R and she really never had any answers.
I guess whether or not its a major hindrance to reconciling depends upon what it is that you are willing to accept. She may never open up or work to make you happy. This is something you may have to accept and should factor into your decision (i.e. choice) to work it out. Only you can change you and your perception of what it is that makes you happy. This is kind of where I see myself right now. I am the only one that can make positive changes and hope that they have a trickle down effect...and maybe they will. But I also must accept that she may never be the sort of person who just pours her heart out to me or actively tries to work on building a new R. The real question is not whether she will be able to do so, but whether I can, want or will want that sort of R going forward into the future.
Another thing you had mentioned on an earlier post of yours centered on the control issues that your W seems to exhibit. Funny, I still maintain that our W's are either one and the same person, or twins. My W no doubt has extreme control issues, (trust me, its not just idle observation) and some of this has manifested itself in her weight loss regime. I can't change that sort of behavior either and its also another trait that I must examine and wonder whether it will allow us to build a healthy, fruitful relationship. These are some of the things that you and I both have to think about....
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
Quote: R's just "happen" and you shouldn't have to work on them to make it work...sort of a romanticized view if you ask me. The other problem is that she is unwiling to verbalize her feelings, emotions, needs, etc. Years ago, I remember initiating conversations designed to get a better feel for what she needed in oour R and she really never had any answers.
Holy shlit! You hit dead on again.
The most important thing I think you/I need to consider in all this is this; we both seem to have accepted that our W's do not, and maybe never will open up to us. You also seem to have said (correct me if I am wrong) that much like my W, yours seems to not go FAR out of her way to learn what makes you happy and do those things (well, for that matter, I guess neither did we really). I am NOT saying they don't want us to be happy and aren't willing to affect that, just that since they are not verbal creatures, they rely on their perception of what makes us happy (often really just a projection of what makes THEM happy) to guide them in their interaction with us and ultimatly they fall short of meeting our needs/desires, and vice versa btw. Here is the important part. Ok, they don't do those things with US, but are we sure they don't do it with OM? We seem to believe it is a character trait in our W's that causes them to be non-communicative, but what if it's a character trait of our relationships and really just a dynamic that has either grown to be, or has always been for whatever reason. Is it a fatal flaw or something that can be worked on? My point is that I am afraid that my W IS open, honest and eager to please this other man, and of course, him to her. Actually, it seems clear that she probably is so what does that mean? I know it means a whole ton of things that I could post about forever, but the main point is that I/we may need to realize that it IS possible for our W's to communicate their needs, and for them to WANT to hear ours but they are just NOT right now. Did they ever? Could they ever again?
It makes me think that contrary to my last post on the issue of my work schedule, that this lack of communication IS a problem I contribute to somehow and maybe helped bring out in my W long ago. I am going to really think about that and see if there isn't some 180's to be done in that area that may help her feel ok to open up to me. Hopefully I/we am already doing the right things. Maybe it's just time that will aid us in this. More time validating and not judging could do the trick. We'll see. I just feel like I don't really want to live in a relationship that relies on guess work and trial & error for it's success. If I have learned anything in all this, it's that direct, honest communication is not only really hard and rarely practiced, but it's essential in a healthy M.
Quote: Please stop pursuing him. You are only pushing him away further. Stop it. Immediately. As hard it is, try your best to ignore the OW's presence. She is not the reason your M is in trouble. She may add to the confusion right now, but the problems were there before she came into the picture.
This was from a post by NM to Mama's thread. I just felt the need to respond to this basic tenant to DBing and really a lot of other approaches to infidelity.
I believe this is true in the beginning. I believe it is true that the problems that led to the affair are the real issues to be tackled, but the case of Mama, PArob, Tim, Frank (well, in the past) and others who have had their bombs reinforced by the fact that their spouse refused to give up the A even after it came to light are different. Right now, the OM in my sitch IS the problem. My W and I have really never gotten along better and I believe it is genuine, not one or the other of us sugar coating things. We still argue and have our moments, but since we are more open and since I have taken responsibility for my happiness and NOT put that responsibility on her anymore, things are much less tense and just, well, better. I really believe that if the OM was out of the picture that we would have a fighting chance, but so long as he is in the picture, we are stuck dealing with that. My W even admits this now. So, when I see this advice to ignore the OM/OW and that they are not the real problem, I react on two levels. On one level I think it's important to recognize that as truth so we as LBS get with the program and start to make our changes that will make us the true person we are, and probably start addressing the issues that cause problems in our M's. On the other level, I think it's crap because in time, all other things improving with any luck at all due to DB or whatever, then the OM IS THE ISSUE, plain and simple. Until our spouses extracate them from their lives, it will remain the over-riding issue that prevents us from moving forward.
Sorry for the rant...now back to our regularly scheduled programing...
