I don't mean this as an insult to you, you have wonderful input...so I really hope you don't take it that way....but sometimes you exhaust me.
I wasn't actually referring to his online activities....I was more referring to his avoidance of me (his online activities were a tool for doing that)...and being happy with the fact that what he was doing was enabling him to not have to truly get close to me and therefore keep me at a distance...to stay at a safe distance for him....to stay in his comfort zone and have the M just the way he wanted it....or perceived it should be.
Just wanted to edit this to add....I don't mean what I said at the beginning of this in a bad way at all...I'm in a mood today and want to make sure it doesn't come off that way LOL. I definitely value your input, you just seem to over analyze my sitch....more than I do LOL.
Quote: I definitely value your input, you just seem to over analyze my sitch....more than I do LOL.
I over-analyze everything! I think I'm probably really a Type 5 who just acts like a Type 7 when she wants to get laid. The reason why it might seem like I'm honing in on your sich more than some others on the BB is due to the fact that you are actually such a good communicator that I feel like your "story" is easier to follow and therefore easier to analyze. Though I really am wondering why there seems to be a sort of bad relationship "burden of proof" rule for LD behavior that is followed by most people on this BB. I'll pick on Karen instead of you. It was perfectly understandable that she was LD in her last marriage because her ex was drug-addled and abusive, but it's not okay for her current husband to be LD in their relationship because she is a wonderful sexy woman who just happens to have a high sex drive. What I am trying to suggest or figure out for myself is how to get around this hopeless "burden of proof" HD said/LD said black hole. My vague theory is that there are certain behaviors that are LD and certain behaviors that are HD that should be unacceptable in any relationship, no matter how bad you subjectively feel the relationship to be. If you feel like the relationship is so bad that you can't keep yourself from behaving in these ways, then whether you are HD or LD YOU need to get help or YOU need to get out of the relationship. For instance, if you are a LD spouse who is being rude when your HD spouse makes a request for sex or if you are a HD spouse who continues to touch your spouse who clearly expressed their desire not to be touched then you need to stop these behaviors for the same reason someone who physically abuses their spouse needs to stop their behavior.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I definitely agree with what you just wrote. Ya know, I used to think I over-analyzed everything to death....in some ways it's a great gift, in others...what a curse! I'm sure you can relate.
I'll bite. I think there are myriad reasons for LD. Is it ok for my H to be LD? Sure. It just doesn't work for him to have an R with me and be LD. It doesn't work for him because I become unhappy and he doesn't like that. It doesn't work for me because I become unhappy.
Frankly, I have plumbed the depths of my H's LD and asked him repeatedly if he is upset with me for the kind of things that kept me LD in my prior M - lack of trust, mutual disrespect etc... He has denied any of those issues. Additionally, given my H's lack of sexual involvement prior to dating and marrying me I think that there is more to this than relational issues between he and I. So, his reasons for being LD are different than the reasons I was LD. Does he have valid reasons? Probably but given that he won't discuss them, doesn't even self identify as LD, sees everything as situational that leaves me in rather the conundrum.
I guess I'm looking at it from the other side of the telescope. People have the tendency to try to assign reason to their feelings. We like to believe we live in a world of "cause and effect" because then we feel more like we have free will and can effect change. Since on one level,HD and LD are feelings we try to assign reasons to them. The natural tendency is to try and protect our ego strength when we assign these reasons. The problem is when we attempt to protect our ego strength by assigning the reason for our feelings to others or when we use bad feelings as an excuse for bad behavior.
I was probably overstating the case when I said that LDFolk generally have the tendency to assign their LD feelings to relationship issues. This is probably more true of LD women. LD men tend more to assign their LD feelings to a lack of physical sexiness in their W or situational reasons as in your case and only fall back on relationship issues as a reason when feeling cornered. Thus, Mr.Karen when confronted with a horny undeniably sexy Karen in a bikini while free from situational responsibilities/stresses on vacation might say "I don't want to have sex with you because you are too demanding!".
This also has to do with why LD men turn to porn, IMO. It's not so much that the porn is a way to escape from or put some distance in the relationship. It's a way to save ego strength. The logic being along the lines of -My wife does not turn me on. Therefore either there is something wrong with me or something wrong with her. Porn does turn me on. Therefore I am a normal guy and there is something wrong with her. Of course, the natural tendency of the HDW who is married to this guy is to think along the lines of - My H is not turned on by me. Therefore either there is something wrong with him or something wrong with me. All the guys were checking me out as I walked down the sidewalk in my bikini. Therefore I am a sexy woman and there is something wrong with my H.
It doesn't really matter what the "real" reason is. The more you are able to assign the responsibility to yourself rather than your spouse without feeling resentment and the more you are able to take responsibility for your behavior even though you can't change your feelings the easier you will make it for your spouse to do the same. However, this is WAY easier said than done. Also, I sometimes wonder if taking too much personal responsibility for the problem isn't bound to backfire eventually because it really does become difficult to avoid resentment and also there is a certain condescension or lack of respect you are showing your spouse when you let them avoid taking on some personal responsibility by taking too much on yourself. Also there is the natural tendency to want to assign responsibility to outside forces beyond either of your control such as hormones, FOO or just thinking "this is the kind of thing that naturally happens in relationships". Once again it's hard to know what is the "real" reason and uncontrollable outside forces can be used to justify either ending a relationship or maintaining a lame status quo.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Karen, here is my concrete piece of advice to you based on my rambling, perhaps incoherent post above . Since your H is largely blaming his LD on situational reasons, perhaps you should say something like this to him the next time he turns you down. "Do you realize that you are using an excuse to avoid having sex with me that you wouldn't accept as an excuse from one of our kids for not mowing the lawn? The grass doesn't stop growing just because nobody is in the mood or feels like taking the time to mow it. My sexual needs don't disappear like magic either.". If he makes the argument that you should have more control over yourself than grass, you could say "If I am feeling healthy, happy and in love with you, I will want to have sex with you on a regular basis. Which of these factors would you prefer that I minimize in order to limit my sexual feelings?".
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
The last comment was actually very helpful. My H would never tolerate an excuse like that from the kids. The problem is that my H rarely, if ever, actually turns me down. Rather, he pre-empts sexual behavior by grousing so much (tired, kid problems, work) that it is clear that he doesn't want sex. So, back to the post above about personal responsibility - the responsibility we all have to take is for our own sexual desire and our own behavior within the R and not to confuse that with the responsibilities of the other. What I have largely failed to do is to actually pin my H down in the way that HP suggests. "H are you telling me that you don't want to have sex with me because you are tired?" Then, if I were to get an actual refusal I could deal with it in the way you suggest.
I tend to get myself in the following trouble... I try to take personal responsiblity for my own sexuality and I know that I don't really want to have sex with someone who isn't interested - therefore, I don't initiate (until eventually driven to it at which point things range from fair to great). But....my natural libido causes me to be interested on average three or four times/week so I will "test the wind" with my fingers and try to see which way it is blowing. Then H hits me with the "tired spiel" or alternatively, demonstrates relative interest - joking, innuendo, azz pats that eventually, within a few days, results in sex. In the interim, in an effort to be true to my own desire to have sex with someone who actually wants me I live on a roller coaster of "does he/doesn't he, will he/won't he." Inevitably, I begin to try to understand how he arrives at the will he/won't he, I have tried to assign it to myself (maybe he's not attracted, maybe I'm not holding up my share in the R, maybe I'm pressuring, maybe...) or him (maybe he has low T, maybe he's not in love with me, maybe he's sexually repressed, maybe he's depressed). At different times, different explanations make sense.
I am going to open another thread to provide room for your answer since this has become a total hijack.
Quote: "If I am feeling healthy, happy and in love with you, I will want to have sex with you on a regular basis. Which of these factors would you prefer that I minimize in order to limit my sexual feelings?".
Of course, as you may or may not know, W has, more than once, said to me that I should look into testosterone-lowering medication to limit my "urges."
Karen: it's hard to be in this situation. It causes so much emotional damage, and it seems to me that it is a rare case where the spouse finally "gets it." At least in my limited experience, which is pretty much within the confines of the ssm board population for the past couple of years. Mojo has such good advice, and her words, especially her suggested "comebacks" to our spouses, seem almost infallible. In practice, though, it's really all about whether the spouse is willing to see your needs as valid, and to make an effort to step outside their comfort zone in order to show their love for you in the way you desire it to be shown.
"If I am feeling healthy, happy and in love with you, I will want to have sex with you on a regular basis. Which of these factors would you prefer that I minimize in order to limit my sexual feelings?".
Echoing Hairdog, I think this is an excellent reply too! I’m wondering if it could be made even more powerful by combining it with Schanrch’s observation that the rejection from our spouse is phrased to make us vulnerable rather than him/her, kwim?
Any thoughts on a concise, to the point message with these two thoughts?
Quote: "If I am feeling healthy, happy and in love with you, I will want to have sex with you on a regular basis. Which of these factors would you prefer that I minimize in order to limit my sexual feelings?".
Not only is this good, it's so good I'm going to have it put on a T-shirt and wear it around the house.
. Since your H is largely blaming his LD on situational reasons, perhaps you should say something like this to him the next time he turns you down. "Do you realize that you are using an excuse to avoid having sex with me that you wouldn't accept as an excuse from one of our kids for not mowing the lawn? The grass doesn't stop growing just because nobody is in the mood or feels like taking the time to mow it. My sexual needs don't disappear like magic either.". If he makes the argument that you should have more control over yourself than grass, you could say "If I am feeling healthy, happy and in love with you, I will want to have sex with you on a regular basis. Which of these factors would you prefer that I minimize in order to limit my sexual feelings?". 
