Slide one of them Harpoons thisa way wouldya? Excellent.
I had to ask twice (with a little time in between) as the first answer I got was "I've really got to get up and get to work", but she eventually gave in and I got to have sex for the first time in more than two months. It wasn't particularly romantic or "connected", but when you're starving even the tiniest morsel is somewhat satisfying.
- This is kind of a theme a lot of Ms around here get caught in...setting themselves up, in essence.
The F brain is not wired to verbally give you the "go ahead" to ML. Ask a few of the ladies around here. Here's a way of conceptualizing this.
Romance novels. Tweaks the F Broca Region in the brain...the area responsible for filtering out predictability. And it's a wicked screener. Hates M predictability and sniffs it out before you know what's going on.
So how many times do you think the Fs in the romance novels give the verbal "go ahead" to the dashing priapic hero? You got it-ZERO. How many of these same heros verbally ask once or twice if the F would like to engage in sex?
You got it again-ZERO.
I could have predicted she'd respond that way to verbals, just as Chrome's W(sorry buddy) and many of the other Fs do the same exact thing...even the "HDs" occasionally (yes, you LFL )
They will give you a dozen excuses not to be the one deferred to for ML activity. The Broca Region slams on the brakes and screams, "contrived!"
Correct me if I'm wrong, ladies please; but I think your W would respond much better if you would completely lose the verbals and the asking...and started to sidle up to her, give a low deep grrrrrowl...sniff at her neck and ear...use your hand to start caressing without tickling her.
And when she starts to protest groggily..."shhhhh.....mmmmmm.....mmmmiiiiine....."
Weak protest: "But I'll be late for work."
You: "Growl. That's right. You're gonna be late for work. But after I get done with you you're gonna at least walk in to work with a big smile on your pretty little face. Gggggrowllll...." (nibbling her ear as she starts to ease up before quickly rolling on top of her.
IMO Fs like to be taken...assertively...by a man who is confident, teasing, and fearless of any kind of weak attempts at rejection.
Just my input for the next time you're in this situation. Lose the verbals. Growl, tease, have fun with her. And if she's still incredibly cranky and not budging? Blow it off. Plan your next move.
She gets in the shower to get ready. Throw the curtain aside. "Mind if I join ya? (jumping in and not giving her a chance to respond) No, I didn't think so. Now let me soap up that slipperly little body of yours. Niiiice. Mmmm-mmmm."
And if she STILL pushes you out? (impossible! ), get out and tease in sing-songy tone. "Oookay, but you can run but you caaaan't hiiide. I know where you liiiiive."
So that would be 3 or 4 rejections, right? Enough to make an fearful humorless M wail, gnash his teeth, and rend his clothes eh? But that's not you, so keep her at least smiling over your attempts...and never ever let the rejection diminish you.
Visibly hurt M feelings over being rejected is not what an F wants to see from her romance hero IMO. Right ladies?
Then again, I could be wrong. Shrug. Pretty sure I'm close though.
-Stigmata-
The difference between a warrior and an ordinary man is the warrior views everything as a challenge; the ordinary man views everything as either a blessing or a curse.
-Yaqui shaman Don Juan-
...and that holds 2x true for nice guy wussies, DJ
Stig, I agree whith everything you wrote, and it sounds like a great plan... in writing. I have actually tried all of what you suggested. When snuggling up behind her, I can expect to get that elbow pushing me back off. When I keep trying, then I have a very angry wife yelling at me for the fact that she said "no" and I continued to push. And if I act light hearted about the rejection, then I am "not taking her feelings seriously" and "disrespecting her as a woman".
But, you may be right.. if I did all of those things, I may also get sex.... sex, not intimacy with a woman going "I can see that you are going to continue to bug me until I just give in and let you do it. So... get it over with. And now, you have gotten me to the point where I am PI$$ED off, and if you don't do it.. you're really going to be hating life. so do it. do it now and get it over with quickly".
I hate that. It creeps me out. I feel like a terrible person when that happens and it is soooooo not what I am looking for while trying to re-establish an EC. It is far easier to go without and keep some peace than to try to initiate and feel like a creep.
Quote: "I can see that you are going to continue to bug me until I just give in and let you do it. So... get it over with. And now, you have gotten me to the point where I am PI$$ED off, and if you don't do it.. you're really going to be hating life. so do it. do it now and get it over with quickly".
It boggles my mind that anyone could ever say (or convey without words) anything so mean, insulting, degrading, disgusting, rude, disrespectful to someone they claim to love. No matter how "not in the mood" you are, there is no call for and no excuse for such unkindness.
Happy, I haven't chimed in on your situation but to me it would be intolerable. Your W has some seriously screwed up ideas on sex, love, and intimacy. She can't be happy with those attitudes. Would she see someone about it? What about if left with no alternative? I think I remember you saying she was unhappy with her weight. I've known quite a few very heavy women who were quite sexy in their own way. Attractiveness has less to do with appearance and more to do with attitude. Your W is in serious need of an attitude adjustment not just for your happiness but for her's as well. I simply do not believe she can be happy in a M where she actively runs from all intimacy. She needs professional help either individually or with you in MC to break through her barriers.
Here is a post from (I think) Hairdog. I read it a couple of times a week to make sure I'm still willing to stay in the battle. It was advice to a younger man who was not married but was seeing the start of a SSM.
Quote:
Oh my goodness, Scott. I wish I were you. I think I am married to your fiance's twin. Same issues; same arguments; same unwillingness to admit any ownership of the problem; same insistence that, if I just relax and "not focus on sex" that it may or may not get better, but I must love her just the same and concentrate on "growing closer."
Here are the differences between your sitch and mine: We are married. We have one child together, and I have three kids from a prior marriage who view her as a great stepmom. There are other differences, probably, but those are the main ones, and, to me, the only relevant ones.
Scott, if I didn't have children in common with my W, I would divorce her. Don't get me wrong...I love this woman. But, like you, I don't feel particularly loved BY her. Oh sure, she insists that she loves me, and she wants me to be confident of her love for me. But to me, those are empty words that match the feeling in my heart. It shouldn't be a battle just to get your wife to admit that your needs are valid. It shouldn't be a battle just to touch and be touched. Sex, as I recall, can be quite fun.
But not with a woman like your GF or my W. The only "fun" thing about sex with them is remembering how good it used to be. The fun disappears when you compare it with current reality.
And what is up with their insistence that, if we just don't "focus on sex" for some indeterminate period of time, the problems will be solved? And, like you, when you intentionally avoid the subject of sex for weeks or months, absolutely nothing happens. You don't feel closer to her because, well, you need the physical contact in order to feel close. And she doesn't feel any closer to you because she can get inside your head and she knows you are full of anger and resentment over the whole issue. Of course, you can't talk about it with her because it involves sex and that is the very subject you're supposed to NOT BE FOCUSING ON.
(sidenote: Do they fail to understand that by telling us NOT to focus on something, it begins to engulf us? It's like telling the guy holding the armload of boxes to ignore his itching nose.)
You say that her "plan" puts most of the effort on your lap. Welcome to my world, Scott. It is up to you to make your GF's world perfect, after which, she may or may not grace you with the gift of her body. And if she does grace you with the gift, don't go thinking that everything is hunky dory. No, my friend. While you weren't looking, while you were in bed with her, the boulder rolled all the way down the hill again. The wheel was un-invented. Get out of bed and start pushing the boulder up the hill again. Start re-inventing the wheel. There is no room for complacency. There is no time to enjoy the afterglow. Get moving.
Is it worth it? Can you look at yourself in the mirror, Scott, and say, "dude, you are exactly where you want to be today! You are in a great relationship with a great woman who, despite her faults, you love deeply. And, despite your faults, she loves you, and shows her love in the way that you want. You are fortunate." Or do you look in the mirror and furrow your brow and say, "dude, it's got to better than this."
I envy you. To me, your path is so clear ahead of you. One road shows me years of effort and frustration and sadness and anger and resentment. The other road...well, who the f!ck cares what the other road looks like? It's another road. And, if it sucks, then you take another. Or another.
You are in your mid-30s. Believe it or not, that's young. You are not married.
I am clearly biased, but I say, go join the land of the living.
Gone the carvings and those who left their mark. Gone the kings and queens, now only the rats hold sway.
When snuggling up behind her, I can expect to get that elbow pushing me back off. When I keep trying, then I have a very angry wife yelling at me for the fact that she said "no" and I continued to push. And if I act light hearted about the rejection, then I am "not taking her feelings seriously" and "disrespecting her as a woman".
- HG. I don't know how you are going about this but this is not normal behavior from an F IMO. I have never run across an F who reacted with hostility to my compliments on their physique while being playful. Sure, some get into the "no I'm not. I'm fat. blah blah blah" self-deprecation but that's usually it. At which point I just ignore and plow with more "you call this fat? You're insane, woman. Mmmm it's like a peach." [grabbing her a$$ etc.] "Maybe I should just go and take a little nibble on it."
Does your W have a sense of humor? Here's how at least I would handle that scenario:
I snuggle up. She elbows me away. "Oooo, I've got a frisky one." I compliment her body again, mmmmm, snif her deeply. I am always projecting positivity and playfulness. And she then yells at me?? WTF?
If she were ticklish and she were laying there or standing there in the hostile posture you suggest, scowling. "Hey, I didn't say I wanted to have sex with you, for godsakes. Get over yourself. Not with THAT Scrooge attitude, you big grouch. I simply wanted to....
...tickle you!" [diving my hands on her and tickling her all over].
And if she hauls off and screams or punches in anger? Game over. I stop all humor and playing. Get up. Stare very seriously.
"I'm not putting up with your pi$$ poor negative attitude. I was just trying to have some fun and play around with you. If you don't want sex, fine, you don't have to if you don't feel like it. Message received. I respect that. But I will not respect your displaying anger towards me while I'm just trying to have a good time with the woman I love. When you feel comfortable enough to tell me the real reason why you're so angry with me let me know. I'll be downstairs (or wherever) giving you your space."
...then I am "not taking her feelings seriously" and "disrespecting her as a woman".
- Sorry, HG. I find this manipulative. If it were me. "Maybe if you could share these feelings you're having with me maybe I could better understand where I am going wrong."
And the last part. "How is being in love with you and admiring everything about you, physically, mentally, and emotionally showing you disrespect? Please explain."
Along with:
"And how is lashing out in anger at your H who is just trying to show his love for his W not disrespecting me as an man? Again, please explain."
But, you may be right.. if I did all of those things, I may also get sex.... sex, not intimacy with a woman going "I can see that you are going to continue to bug me until I just give in and let you do it. So... get it over with. And now, you have gotten me to the point where I am PI$$ED off, and if you don't do it.. you're really going to be hating life. so do it. do it now and get it over with quickly".
- I agree with Lil. Are you Fing serious? Do you know what I pictured with this kind of an response? I know it's not literal and probably a bit extreme but most of this would be the response of:
An F tied up in some basement in Iraq held hostage by a bunch of let's just say very bad kidnappers. Especially if you replace "bug" with "beat" along with the last lines.
As I've said a number of times before, an F happy with herself internally is an F who embraces or at least is comfortable with her own sexuality, and the pleasure derived from such. If she was always like this then maybe it's something else. But to act in this manner is a red flag to me she needs to open up and tell me what's really bothering her. No way I'm letting this fester. Her inner dialogue must be really dragging her down for some reason.
I hate that. It creeps me out. I feel like a terrible person when that happens and it is soooooo not what I am looking for while trying to re-establish an EC. It is far easier to go without and keep some peace than to try to initiate and feel like a creep.
- HG. I feel for ya, man. Who wouldn't feel like a creep? But listen to me. If you don't listen to anything I've ever said, listen to this. I devoted a freaking thread to it.
Stop being a beta male.
You are telling me you're rolling over; giving up. Or at least it's easier and you are leaning this way. Miserable in your R while enabling her super thick walls.
And, heck, Corri even devoted another thread addressing your wish to "keep the peace." Cage rattling, from her Stupid Question thread.
You do not have to "go without." W does not have all of the power in the R, even though you are choosing to give all of yours away to her. Fifty-fifty. Don't give up. And don't personalize her rejection.
Confidence. Determination. Counter her shtty attitude with strong boundaries as to what you will and will not accept from your R. I'd start with a discussion about what makes each of you most happy and fulfilled within the R...along with an open and frank discussion about what bothers you both as well so you can both get on the same page of an healthy happy R.
2 schillings.
-Stigmata-
The difference between a warrior and an ordinary man is the warrior views everything as a challenge; the ordinary man views everything as either a blessing or a curse.
-Yaqui shaman Don Juan-
...and that holds 2x true for nice guy wussies, DJ
Crudmuffins. Sometimes my blunt comments and apparent harsh/critical tone get me into hot H2O. Limits of text. Urg. Tried to edit but MWD MB timeout wouldn't let me back in. IRL these comments would come across totally differently IMO. And definitely supportive and empathizing.
Should have wwritten, "don't let yourself fall into the trap of beta behavior." . (as I had let myself) Just concerned for your resolve. I let myself become 10x the beta you ever could become for that matter. Still astonished how I let that happen. Maybe, as you said, it was the easier road. Just kinda unplugged from the stress and mentally checked out.
Anyway, keep up the good fight alphaman. The fact that you're here says a lot about your resolve already.
-S-
The difference between a warrior and an ordinary man is the warrior views everything as a challenge; the ordinary man views everything as either a blessing or a curse.
-Yaqui shaman Don Juan-
...and that holds 2x true for nice guy wussies, DJ
Great post! Think I'll print it out and re-read it each night before going to bed.
You definitely make a compelling point and I think that you're probably right on the money with respect to the assertive, confident, playful attitude being a lot more appealing than the "wimpy" (for lack of a better word) alternative. The sad part is that, even as I write this, I could easily display the very attitude that you've described with another woman (hypothetically speaking of course), but after years of rejection and a general lack of interest from my own wife, I no longer think of her as sexy and playful. I know - that could very well be as much my fault as hers, but it's still sad nonetheless.
I appreciate your suggestions and I'll definitely work on making a bit of an attitude adjustment.
You need to do a 180 with you wife if you ever expect anything to change. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over that has never brought change and expecting it to do so.
I would really recommend you call a DB Coach...Laurie is very good...who will give you some 180 ideas that fit your situation and personality. I found it to be well worth the investment.
Quote: I hate that. It creeps me out. I feel like a terrible person when that happens and it is soooooo not what I am looking for while trying to re-establish an EC. It is far easier to go without and keep some peace than to try to initiate and feel like a creep.
A LOT of us celibate and semi-celibate HDs feel this way. Whether those words are actually spoken by our spouse, our shouted in so many non-verbal ways from the rooftops of her psyche, it simply makes you feel awful.
)
), get out and tease in sing-songy tone. "Oookay, but you can run but you caaaan't hiiide. I know where you liiiiive." 
No matter how "not in the mood" you are, there is no call for and no excuse for such unkindness. 
Do you know what I pictured with this kind of an response? I know it's not literal and probably a bit extreme but most of this would be the response of: