Frank, I agree with Becca, you're doing so well. You love your W so much...but I think you have to let go a little. Make a committment to STOP worrying about who she is with and where when she's out of the house...she is a free woman, and if you need to worry about her every move, then it's not healthy. There will come a point when she figures it all out, until then, let go. It's so freeing.
Focus on you. You're not being needy, just nice. That's a wonderful thing for a woman to feel. You described things you did in M exactly as MY H!!! He was a good man too, loved me, but was VERY down, angry and miserable in life. Almost like he was spiraling and didn't care to stop, even when he could--almost felt like he chose to be that way. Mostly about work and led him to feel this way about life in general and feel victimized. I'm not bringing up bad things about your past...you're definately a different man and so is my H, but if you're wondering where your W is now, understand that it is a very difficult thing to live with someone who was like that. It has taken me a LONG time to trust that H is not really like that. I still have bad reactions to his venting now...even if it's normal. It's something that I have to untrain. So, H tries to make an effort to keep things to a minimum, be a happier person and control that side of him. He has seen how it is hurting a coworker of his to be that way, in family life and I think it's sinking in.
Consequently, I became withdrawn in affection, compassion and understanding. Not to blame him, but you get it.
OK, not to spill all MY stuff on your thread, but I guess I'm saying that I can see things from your Ws side (not the OM part), and can perhaps help.
She needs to see you strong and happy now, in life and with yourself. That meant a lot to me. She needs to see you get into your work and family, happily. Give her space, but try to plan on things to do, and invite her, if she wants to come. My H couldn't pull himself out of misery to engage in our M and act like a couple or give me priority, so do those things. It almost felt like he was controlling in that "when H was happy, WE (the couple) could be happy and have a normal life." It also felt like he took real advantage of the M by "dumping" all over it with his emotions, expecting lots and giving little in return. Remember, your W needs emotional support too. You've been a saint now, so keep it going.
Be strong, engage, happy, and confident. Try to plan things with her and the family. Don't act, be YOU. Show her that you're not that Frank anymore, for yourself. I loved seeing that in H...and to be honest, I didn't see his changes until he got sick of me...that's how used to things I got. So give your W some time.
I hope I don't offend, or if I've pegged you for someone that you're not (like my H)..so please accept my apologies. I just want to help and give your Ws point of view. Though I never left the M physically, I did emotionally and through my behaviors. There were many times I wished we weren't married and I thought I had made a mistake. In my mind, I was a WAW many times over.
I hope that this has been at least somewhat helpful. If not, apologies.
Frank...you got me thinking of how my H is different now in positive ways that have shown me that he has changed. SO, I wanted to share with you. Again, if I'm off, please accept my sorries!
* H is EXCITED about his life, job, etc. That makes me happy. So, whatever your hopes, dreams are, or whatever you're excited about...share this with her. Don't look at her reaction....how about things in your business, talk about how it's been going solo. Talk to her like a friend, just sharing, not needing her to save/reassure, etc. Any other things in your life that is new that you can share the excitement with?
* Friends--made me happy to see H with new friends, going out to do things and happy. I didn't see him as a person that wanted to disengage from people and social settings.
* Your W seems social, and that must be an important trait for her in a mate. It was for me. Not that he had to be a party animal, but at least happy to be out with me, happy to be a "couple"....be enthused to be out with her and in social settings. I know you HATE her friends, but don't act it. Use it as an opportunity to show them as well that you're an outgoing guy. Don't act, just whatever you're comfortable with.
* Let her go out, have a fun time. Ask her about it when she comes home and be happy/excited for her. Not prying, or pursuing, just friendly conversation.
* If you vent about life, it's normal, but do it in a healthy way. No neediness from her, reassurances. Vent, tell her that it felt good, and now you're ready to see the brighter side, solutions, etc. H does this and it really helps me to see that he can see beyond his despair. It makes me want to comfort him. I know you may be afraid to vent with her now, for fear of showing that you can get down, but if you handle it well, it can be an opportunity for you to share.
* Get into life. Explore, think of new things to do with family and initiate. Have a good time and take the initiative to build good memories. Likely she feels like a caretaker to your emotions and this is a good way to alleviate that.
* If she expresses feeling down, etc tell her you understand, listen and DO NOT react or feel negative. Don't show her that she is affecting the rest of your life...she will feel guilty and resentful.
I hope I don't offend, or if I've pegged you for someone that you're not (like my H)..so please accept my apologies. I just want to help and give your Ws point of view. Though I never left the M physically, I did emotionally and through my behaviors. There were many times I wished we weren't married and I thought I had made a mistake. In my mind, I was a WAW many times over.
You're not offending me at all. I see a lot of similarities in our relationships. My Wife thought many times that she needed 'out' of the relationship because she couldn't or wouldn't assert herself. If she hadn't met this jerk OM in Hawaii and 'fallen in love' she wouldn't have done what she did - say the marriage was over, say she wanted a divorce, then pursue OM.
She claims she would have divorced 'anyway' because she had been thinking about divorce for a couple years, but it's not true. She had problems and 'thought' about divorce, but she did nothing to move towards divorce and we spent quality time together up till the day she bombed me.
He was the catalyst. Now she thinks she can never 'go back' because it didn't work before so it couldn't work now. So in her mind she's moving on.
If I was my old 'normal' self I'd get throught this a lot easier, but I'm still on the tail end of fighting the deep depression I'd been in for the past 5 years while ALSO dealing with her OM, Divorce threats and her not being present emotionally during the holidays. I still haven't picked myself all the way back up from that, but she isn't clued in to any of that.
So, I'm just going through another phase where I feel anxious and worried. It's like I have to be F'ing perfect all the time or she'll think I'm "going back" to the old Frank. What I REALLY need is a supportive companion, and so does SHE. That's why this sucks. She has turned off her feelings so WELL. They peek out sometimes, usually when she is in need.
Oh, She just called me (8:20) and said that she has decided to stay overnite at her friends since they haven't started their massages yet (she lives in Santa Monica, 45 minutes away). I asked her if she'd gotten her 'turn' receiving a massage and she said no, they have been eating and talking for the past few hours and are only now starting their massage 'swap'. I said that I knew she really needed it so I hope it goes well.
She asked me if I was going to be able to get the kids up for school and I said it was no problem. I was pretty monotone in my voice, I hope I didn't sound needy or disappointed. I think I may have though.
I had her talk to D10 to make sure D10 wasn't going to be upset. She was upset the last time she did something like this. But D10 was just blah on the phone. She'll fall apart when I put her to bed later.
I think what is really bothereing me is that a week ago we were close, intimate, caring and then she went to visit her number one negative influence friend amd stayed overnite then came back totally disconnected from me. Now she's at the other ones house for an overnite, the one who is 'searching for the perfect man' and thinks she knows what love really is.
So it's bothering me that she'll come back with more Sh*t in her head. How 'wonderful' it is to be free and to date and find those special friends. Right. Every guy this girl has dated has been a real piece of work, as was her husband.
Of course, these are all ideas I manufacture in my imagination. She hardly sees this girl, and she doesn't have a lot of respect for some of the things she does. So who knows what she will come away with. There are times I think that my Wife is just plain stupid. I feel bad when I think that, but I do think it. Then I ask myself if I really want to be with someone like that. And I still end up knowing I love her too much.
But I'm in a rut, I needed to let her go and I DIDN'T.
I know it seems weird but I think I'll have to cry tonite and mourn her loss again. That way I won't have expectations and I can stay detached better. I'm just feeling so DOWN.
Now D10 just came into my room crying because she want's mom to be here in the morning. She's had the hardest time with all this. I told her she could call mom but she doesn't want to because she'll cry on the phone. I promised to read to her instead.
I hate it when I'm weak like this. I can do better.
Like your W, I never actually moved toward D or walked out, or even mentioned my feelings, just took it out in other ways (demanding, critical, and other lovely things you can read on my thread). Like your W, I too just SHUT DOWN when H was in need of support. It's so sad to look on now, and I wish I could be that for him again, but he shut me out too. I just wished he could be supportive to me, could engage in our M, could actually be somewhat happy at times to be with me and not always be overwhelmed with other things in life that always seemed to be more important. They were, and I resented that. Again, I'm just expressing myself so you can perhaps understand W better.
Shutting him out and withdrawing to his spirals became a habit for me. I got good at it. I sensed his "tantrums" and I got ice cold, then mean. I "snapped" out of it when he finally turned that way on me and we imploded. I see your W doing the same.
I know you're hurting now. I know this is so hard, and you have truly went through hell and back. I know she'll see what she put you through. But, for yourself and your D10, you need to pull out. Are you on meds? Seeing C? Focus on your life. So W didn't come home and she's with negative friends, in the end, it's still her life. Trust her. She can talk to whomever she wants. Stop thinking about it. Start thinking of what you can do to make YOU feel better. Read to D10, play together, and Mom comes home when she feels. Let her know she's missed, but no one is falling apart in her absence.
I know it's hard now, but remember the things I wrote in the previous post...from your W's point of view, these things really mattered to me. H has recently gone through lots of stressful things at work, increased workload and the stress in our M. He was so strong, more than me. I am so respectful of that and see that he has changed. He said he didn't want to be that person anymore.
I understand what you're fighting with depression. Let's make this work for you. I'm not being tough love or telling you to pull yourself up by your bootstraps....just telling you that you're a GREAT guy. Believe that. Say it over and over. Write 3 great things about yourself NOW in a journal. You're a real catch, a great dad, and your W can't do better. NOW...feel it, believe and ACT IT.
You say that she needs your support. You're right...the way I needed it the most was to have H be strong for me, confident. I wanted someone to tell me it was going to be OK. I had to do that all the time for both of us. So, what can you do to portray strength for her, someone she wants to lean on? She's confused now, scared, in pain (I know, hard to sympathize with her), and needs strength from others...make it you.
Quote: Shutting him out and withdrawing to his spirals became a habit for me. I got good at it. I sensed his "tantrums" and I got ice cold, then mean. I "snapped" out of it when he finally turned that way on me and we imploded. I see your W doing the same.
I'm not having 'tantrums' any more. Are you speaking in the past?
Quote: I know you're hurting now. I know this is so hard, and you have truly went through hell and back. I know she'll see what she put you through. But, for yourself and your D10, you need to pull out. Are you on meds? Seeing C? Focus on your life.
You must not be familiar with my threads. I am on meds, I have been slowly getting myself up, then detached. WHen I was finally close to detachment, she had a meltdown, totally lost herself in her own hurt and pain. Then I had to be there FOR HER when I couldn't even be ther FOR MYSELF.
A few days after the meltdown we were intimate. The next day she was indifferent. Stayed that way till a week later where we did it again. That time she flirts, hugs, kisses and generally treats me like her husband. THis lasted till she went over one of her other 'bad' friends house overnite, and she came back 'indifferent' again, telling me that she needs to not depend on me to 'fill her cup' when she is down. That was 8 days ago and she has been the same ever since, except when she is down and likes it if I massage her feet or her shoulders. Saturday nite she was very in need of comfort because she was worn out from a busy day and 'let' me be there for her. Seemed like a slight crack in the wall again.
She went to her other negative friends place last nite, and of course since the previous one caused her to decide to 'kill' the intimacy I am wondering what this one will do. And of course expecting it to get 'worse'.
I spent a lot of time last nite thinking about that. About her just shutting me off after she had opened her heart for a little while. My mistake was to let it happen too easily, and to assign any 'meaning' to it. It caused me to stop taking care of myself, and working on my hard earned growth.
So as much as it pains me, I'm making myself less available to her and I won't offer to do anything for her any more. And if she asks for anything she'll have to convince me it's somethihg I WANT to do. I won't be mean, just detaching.
She may never figure out that she can have everything she wants with me. Unless what she wants is 'someone else'.
Quote: You say that she needs your support. You're right...the way I needed it the most was to have H be strong for me, confident. I wanted someone to tell me it was going to be OK. I had to do that all the time for both of us. So, what can you do to portray strength for her, someone she wants to lean on? She's confused now, scared, in pain (I know, hard to sympathize with her), and needs strength from others...make it you.
That is the right thing to do. I have to do it with detachment though. When I let myself get 'happy' with the apparent 'coming closer' I fell down hard when she pulled away. That was my fault for letting myself get attached. Her 'friends' tell her she will be OK when she is divorced and on her own. So we have opposing goals.
Frank, Sorry if I was projecting too much, and I was not familiar with details.
You have the right track. Detach. She will come if she wishes...but remove yourself from the madness that is someone else's life. You have enough on your own plate.
If she has a meltdown again, be there for her, but, as you said, in a detached way. She has to learn to pick herself back up and be a happy person on her own, as we all do.
Quote: Frank, Sorry if I was projecting too much, and I was not familiar with details.
No problem, you were still helpful.
Quote: You have the right track. Detach. She will come if she wishes...but remove yourself from the madness that is someone else's life. You have enough on your own plate.
Yeah, right now I'm staying in my out-of-the house office till later. I told her I needed to do some work (which is true) and she said sorry I would miss dinner. And of course told me to make sure I take care of myself and eat! She feels a little guilty because she knows I couldn't get anything done over the weekend because I had to be around for the kids, so SHE could work and make money. I told her it was silly of me to think I could work on the weekend, it hasn't happened so far!
So here I am. Trying to get stuff done but not having a lot of success. Too much other stuff on my mind. I figure I'll go home around 9:30. I know she'll be awake and the kids won't be. That will give me a chance to ignore her and see what she does.
Quote: If she has a meltdown again, be there for her, but, as you said, in a detached way. She has to learn to pick herself back up and be a happy person on her own, as we all do.
Yeah, I'd almost welcome a meltdown right now. At least then she'd move in some direction. Patience Patience.
Becca was willing to bet me today that she WILL come around and see that she's got a pretty good man here. We'll see.
Well, just got home around 10:30. D10 was up - she was missing me. W was geting ready for bed. I went and Said good nite to D10 and she felt better.
W reheated dinner for me, gave me no hug or anything - although she did rub my shoulders but asked if it was 'ok', and was she 'annoying me'? Very uncomfortable. Don't know why. So I felt weird and I'm real tired. I think she feels bad that I didn't get work done over the weekend because of her schedule. I wasn't angry about it so she shouldn't be either. Old behavior though.
She didn't sit with me when I ate, she just said goodnite and went to her room, got in bed and turned off the lites. Ok, she's tired, no problem. Before she went to her room I asked her if she was feeling uncomfortable around me or something and she said she was just tired.
AFter I ate my plate of food, I knocked on her door to tell her good nite and thanks for making dinner. I bent down and said "I'm gonna kiss you on the forehead!" and then I did.
I said "You didn't mind that I did that did you?" and she said "It's up to me to tell you my boundaries and I'm ok with it". I said I'm just making sure I'm respecting her boundaries since they have been changing.
This is so friggin weird. I have no idea how to act with her since she changed her behavior so completely last week. So now I'm coming across as not confident. But then, so is she. I could sense that she wasn't sure what was 'ok' and where I was at. Was I mad? Was I tired? She couldn't tell.
I dunno. I got to go to bed. Since she wasn't upset about me kissing her I'll conclude that she's not totally done with me - today.
I agree, it's always like that. I'm sorry. It sucks. The best thing I can say; detach and take care of yourself. Focus on you.
That is all there is to do, now isn't it?
Well this morning is the same. Little spoken, very little eye contact. I'm glad hse has these friends who help straighten her out and keep her on the divorce track so she can 'find herself'. God forbid she might be able to do that AND stay married. What a sad society we live in. So much self centeredness.
Well, I'll be ok. I see COunselor today so that will help me anyway. I think BECAUSE I need some response, that's why I don't get any from her.
