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Always- I love the self discovery and realization path you are on. It is so good to be able to admit your faults, see them as wrong and work to change them. At the same time though, you really do seem to be beating yourself down a bit. Almost as if you are constantly looking at yourself in a bad light. Lighten up a bit on yourself. Everything you are doing are positive steps, give yourself pats on the back to balance out the self-analyzation.

I could be way off, and sorry if I am, it's just the impression that I get from your posts.

You are doing good and you deserve a hug. So, here it is:

(((((((((HUG)))))))))

~SE

Keep working on you....pass the test....stay calm....it's just been a short week since your last big blow. Be his friend, make YOU the person he wants to come home too.

Thanks, ladies...the supportive words mean a lot.

SE: I hear ya. At times I feel that I may be too hard on myself, but in looking back at our past, H had an insane amoutn of patience, and I was ALWAYS defensive. Like your H, I would wake up later and give the meager "sorry" that I see, through YOUR words, means nothing after you torture them repeatedly. I gave him grief about all his "shortcomings" and my expectations constantly. He walked in a minefield and found himself always feeling like a failure and saying sorry and bowing his head. I hate to see him to do that now. I was insecure, and had needs that were not being met, and I got this sick satisfaction from seeing him "pay" for neglect. He made me pay by ignoring me and now wanting to walk out. How awful? I know I'm being hard, but whichever way the M works out, it's not who I want to be. I'm working on forgiving myself, but also working towards a better me...not just an OK me, but really the best person I can be, for me. I don't hide the fact that H screwed up too. Not to worry....this week, I've been waking up and meditating, and relaxing in the evenings as well, and combing through behaviors and actions I did well and how easy it was. I'm patting myself on the back and am quite proud. Even if it makes no difference in my M, at least I won't go out as a person I never meant to be. Your encouragement means a lot!

WCW: thanks for the orders! I have to keep remembering them. Really, I'm finding that making changes isn't that hard once I've let go. You're right...It has been just 1 short week where LOTS of old issues/feelings were opened up for each of us. Also like being back to Square 1--no worries, I'm happy we had the blow, I found things out I needed to, and it is also what pushed me to letting go.

I decided that I'm not tracking progress of our R anymore. I'm just trying to track my own, and really listen to H and what he's saying. These past few days are the first little bits he's let out about how he felt, in his own way (venting last night). It's nice that he's opening up like this--it's on his own clock, not on my insistence of progressing the M.

I get a little wary when things are nice b/w us. In the past months, I got hopeful, and believed Hs words when he said he wanted to try and was committed and found that he wasn't. Of course, he was saying things to appease me, as always, from freaking out and a million questions and a painful R talk. Now, I ask and say nothing. Whatever comes from his mouth is his own. So, I believe it.

Need some ideas/advice. In our blowout last week, H mentioned that he was in love with being single, ILYBNILWY, and sometimes does not want to be with me at home...feels like he's lying. Said that he comes home wishing that I were out so he could be alone.

I thought about separating to give him space. Is that good? He has not left, but it may be because he is confused or wants me to go first. I can't keep guessing what he wants, so I go by what I think is right for me. I'm going out of the country for 2-3 weeks in another 4 weeks, so that would give us the "short separation" that we might need. I thought I would let this time together until then to show H that I have let go, he is free, and I'm free too.

How can I give him space in the house? I try not to be in his space, be in another room, etc. If he wants to talk, he can come there...but in a friendly way so he doesn't think I'm mad.

He stays at work very late, partly b/c of a lot of work, and partly b/c it's probably more comfortable than coming home.

I am considering going out more. I'll be out tonight with friends. Tomorrow night, I might go to town after work and stay late. I have things that I want to do and might be nice for H to come home to an empty house.

This past weekend, I went on a drive for the afternoon so H could be at home alone. Since he works a lot, I don't want him to always be out of the house to get space. At the same time, I try to get around and leave him the car too.

I don't want to appear that I'm avoiding him, so I try to be quite friendly.

Also, to give emotional space, I don't talk R, don't ask loaded questions ("so you mean you were happy to share that with me??"), don't DO all the wifey things I used to (cook each night, etc) that might make him feel obligated, plan things to do together, call, ask questions about his time (other than normal chat), don't talk of the future at all. Am I missing anything? If we go into any of these, it's through his voluntary actions/words. Ex: he offers what he did at work, at night. He calls to say when he's coming home.

Any other ideas?

Update: Had a nice nite with friends yesterday, took my mind off of things. Came home, H was not there, at work doing a presentation. I had a wave of emotions (major PMSing) and insecurity and sadness. Cried a lot and then caved and called H at work. He was not at his desk. I freaked. Paged him, and he called back immediately from a coworkers desk b/c his computer pooped...who knows what else, but I didn't think about it. ..thankfully I told him that the house looked like he ran out of here in a panick and I was worried if all was OK, computer probs (he always faces these)--didn't want him to think that I was checking up on him. He said I was right, we chatted a little, I let him go b/c being respectful of his time. I gave him a pep talk...don't think it makes a difference for him though.

Also, b/c I knew he would be swamped with the presentation, I made a friendly gesture of washing a few things he needed to wear and also making a simple dinner if he wanted. I emailed the info, and said no pressure, there if you need. He came home LATE last night...we chatted. He thanked for the stuff I did. I said no sweat. He started to go through things he did and why he could not wash his stuff...then he caught himself and said, "I don't know why I say this, b/c I feel I have to justify how busy I am and why you have to work so hard..." I said, "It's no big deal, I like doing this, I wish you wouldn't outline your work like that, you don't have to justify or explain. I'm here to help." It's sad that we've gotten out of this phase of needing each other's help, we function independently. He never asks me anything, and vice versa. But, I don't want to start that now, and be pushy.

This morning, he reached out to touch me, big for him. I gave him a back rub (his favorite) and said it's no big deal, just that he has a busy day. I didn't want him to think I was taking things too far, expecting anything, etc. He seemed nervous, scattered (about presentation), so not as funny, nice as usual. I didn't mind, just was cheery as usual--trying to let him know that I accept his moods, and don't get affected or turn it around to make him feel bad for me feeling bad.

Weird: This morning, I got in the car (which he had last night) and the drivers seat was pulled up a lot and I found a zip lock bag in the front seat. H lets people use our car. Of course, he might have been with F coworker, who knows. But, I would think he would have driven. I seriously think he let someone use the car. Whatever.

This morning, I woke up and felt a little more forgiving of myself. I know I acted poorly and did some mean thing. I was not that person before. I don't want to be now. I WAS good to H, many times when most people would not have been (our past break-ups). I was sweet to him and gave him my best. I have to remember that now. I fell off the track and hurt him, and for that I will be regretful, but I am not branding myself. I will shed that, hold my head hight and go back to who I was.

The rest will be as it was meant to be written.

Journaling: I feel like my posts are TOO long and too many, but I also consider this my e-journal, so here goes.

Had a nice day at work today...one of those days where the thought of M isn't always nagging at the back of my mind. Called H to say Good Luck on his presentation...I initiated getting off the phone. I actually had no urge to keep talking to him. He was short, he's nervous--so I didn't wait to have him kick me off the phone, being needy.

Reality check...I spent some time today thinking of how all this ever happened. H is being someone I don't know at all. I had such great memories this morning of times we spend together, how committed he was, how in love with me he was, how much he wanted US. He neglected and didn't try hard at times, but I see all that he was, now.

I think of these things and it's hard to believe the man I see each day, now. It's like living with a stranger. Then, i think that's what it must have been like for him the last few years, when i would go into my cycles of bad behaviors, feeling afraid of me. Like living with an alien. Hurting because you wonder how this person you once trusted to love and care for you deeply hurts you so much. So, now we've both done that to each other. I want out of that cycle--not with any outcome in mind, just to be better and acting on the intentions we went into our M with.

I think of what would be hard about D. The memories. I would not miss anything about what we have now, which is very little. I would miss the great times we had together, the wonderful H I had. The deep love I had from a person that I no longer have. The loss. It's what makes me sad now...when I look into his eyes and see nothing. Again, he must have had the same loss as well.

All in all, I feel this is a horrible wake-up call. I am deeply ashamed at how poorly I treated a beautiful R. How I always took it forgranted that H would never leave or stop loving me. Regret is so painful. I guess everything happens for a reason. This was the call I had to wake-up and be a better person. As much as I say that I am getting back to the person I was, that person did not have the ability to forgive, or to feel pain for what it was and let it go, or to see things from another person's eyes. In these ways, I have grown.

For some reason (and I might live to eat these words), I have this deep feeling that things will turn around for the best. I feel that it's so hard to trash the memories (H said that too) and hard to believe that you could have had such an intense love at one time and it's just gone. Then, I see the blank look in Hs eyes and I feel that I'm trying to beat a dead horse. That sometimes in life, you screw up and you lose. I know that I'm at this point where I've let go, and I have, but I still let the pain and loss seep in. Even if things work out, I will always feel loss for the years and moments I wasted with my behavior.

I also fear that if things do work out, will they ever go back? Will it always be partly broken? What about all these people you read about who get back together and their M is better then it was before, ever? Sometimes I wonder if there will always be a weakness, a crack that, no matter how imperceptable over the years, is still there. At other times I believe that this is just the process of discovering unconditional love...how can you if you aren't faced with conditions you have to open your heart to. Years ago, I would never have thought I could live with someone who did things to me that have already happened. H feels the same way. Here we are. At times I feel that going through a painful time like this, where you forgive and sin yourself, and still stand together, there is no more intense trust, closeness, love. You have seen the other person in their good and bad, you have been hurt by them, loved them still, you have been human and allowed them the same.

OK, just venting, thinking and journaling. Sorry for having to read this.

Update Journal:
H stopped by at my office to drop something off after his presentation. I was happy to see him and beaming. He smiled too. We chatted for a bit about his presentation (went well) and he ran out of here. I didn't chase.

I went out of town for the evening, to give him space. I called to let him know and he was short, and not very converstational. No worries, I went on as usual.

This morning was nice. We had a nice chat, he seemed quiet, but nice. I didn't push, just being myself. Told him I was really proud and happy for him. Doesn't seem to make a difference what I say and how I compliment.

Had some sad moments last night. Feeling sad and hopeless, but feeling better today. I think my emotions are all over the place. I understand that he's having a rough time with things, testing, and still believing. He's still angry at a lot of things. Something tells me that he is also feeling a LOT of guilt over things too, which is understandable.

I felt like such a horrible person, and think of how H must see me. BUT, I feel better because I know I wasn't always like this in our R. There were times in our R that I was good to him, great to him, in situations where I offered my grace and forgiveness. My love with no strings attached. So, I'm not going to feel lousy for everything I did, neither should he. I'm gonna go back to who I was, with improvements, and rise above this mess. Pull myself out of the insecurity, etc. I know well enough that no one H finds will be what I was, and in many ways still am. He knows that too and admitted it. I am stronger than that.

Good things lately: no R talk is nice. Our mornings are much better. We both get up, talk and go to work strong. That's important to H, to not get down about things in the morning to stress his day and feel weak. I don't want to make him feel weak, I want him to go into days strong...I make sure we have good days and strong mornings.

Also, no questions, lots of space. I have distanced myself, lovingly. I still care a lot, but now enough to let him go. He needs space to think, and not be on my schedule of marital progress. He's sorting out is pain, his mistrust, his old feelings for me and new, his feelings for other people (coworker) and most of all, what he wants in life and marriage. He said he wanted a partner that he was excited to be with, to share life with. That's not me. Temporarily it was another woman, but I don't really think she would have filled that role either. Just excitement, but that was easy as all I caused was pain. He said it was what he liked about being with her, it was fun, exciting, joy--things that we did not have. That hurts, but oh well. It's the truth.

For now, more of the same. I feel good. I don't feel like a doormat, and I don't feel scared and insecure. I feel strong. I know my value in his life and in the life of others. I am a good person, a loving and valuable person.

Realization:
Interesting...when I snooped in Hs email, all of coworkers emails were deleted (that's where I read them). He didn't do this for me, b/c he had no idea that I would check. Yet, all of MY emails were still in the Inbox...even painful ones and silly ones. He mentioned that he reads the significant ones repeatedly. You would think it would be the opposite...saving hers and deleting mine.

I thought about this...and I remembered something H said when I confronted him last week. He was shocked. He said he had no thoughts that what he did might be bad...he thought it was innocuous. Maybe it largely is. BUT, it was like he was coming to the realization that it was inappropriate level of friendship. Yet, though he thinks it's innocuous, he still hides it from me. But, what I'm realizing is that maybe by deleting all the emails, he's hiding it from himself too. It's nothing he pursues, he doesn't go overboard, and he deletes emails, sees her with other friends for dinner occasionally, talks when she calls...seems that he's weaved it into his life without wanting to face what it might be. Part of his subconscious. Hmmm, wonder why? Is it what he really wants? Does he not want to face things to avoid guilt? Is it a way for him to not let things get out of hand or place it with lower priority? Who knows. Interesting though, will have to think more on this. Any insights anyone?

Always

I see such strength in you and love for your H, I know this is going to work. I see you doing so well. You feel low. But you are doing everything so right ... well except for the snooping. I would like to see you promise here that you have seen all you need to see, and realize you will not find your answers in an email.

That is one of the hazards of staying together under one roof. You are so lucky to still be together, you should promise to respect his privacy, his pain, and his problems as his alone to solve. You do seem to understand all of this, now you just have to act on it.

My W says she feels nothing for me after 25yr of M, and almost 10months of Sep. You believe that? I don't. I do believe she has buried it under layers of pain, resentment, and anger ... that she has not yet faced. She says she doesn't love anyone else. Neither does your H. How would I know if my W had become involved with someone? Actually, how would it change what I want, or how I would DB and wait?

It wouldn't. So with time, I have eliminated that from my list of concerns; right along with missing limbs and other things I have no control over for her. I want her back in any form possible, when she finds her answers. Don't you feel this way about H?

They are both in incredible emotional suffering and can not find their answers. They believe themselves to be functioning in a normal lucid although depressed state. They say and do things they forget or regret. We won't judge them by that and I admire you for focusing on how he starts each day. What more can you do?

What is an EA? I understand it is when two people discuss their private life with someone of the opposite sex. They discuss something they would not discuss with their spouse. They form a bond of sorts for each other. Maybe it is empathy or an actual attraction.

Is that what we are doing here on this board every day, to some extent? Well I don't blame you for not being attracted to me but I am very impressed with how well you are doing. I had copies of emails I should not have looked at. When I first saw them a year ago I could see them as nothing less than evidence of trouble outside the home. Today they look much like the teasing we often do with each other here on this board.

From now on just assume if there was an email it was no more meaningful than spam, which he also deletes. Don't bother looking. If you are concerned about someone outside the home, realize they too were or are just another form of spam, that he will delete. Trust that he is hurting and still trying to find his way out of the fog and back in your heart where he wants to be.

W2S--THANK YOU!!! So nice to receive your post....it's nice to hear from someone!

You are absolutely right. I made that vow last week, and I intend to keep it. I have no desire at all to snoop. I feel that I have found everything I can, and can assume the rest, so what else am I looking for. Also, it makes H feel humiliated, ashamed, caged and spied on. He feels like a failure. I agree, he is in a tremendous amount of pain, and is working through this the best he can, as am I. If that means he has a "friend" then so be it...it's what one of my counselors said. In this case, it was more than just a platonic friend...there was attraction and kissing. I was mad because H had said that there was no one else, got quite mad at me for even asking, and had said he was committed to making this work. Then, when I was even just sad, claimed that he had tried his best, and things were not working. Well, I don't think it's trying your best when you are emotionally invested in others.

I don't blame him for not trying, he wasn't, and still is not, ready. That is OK. I just didn't want to be lied to, and then blamed for things not improving when I was trying as hard as I could. I am deeply ashamed at snooping and for making him feel humiliated. I got quite angry and all the horrible behaviors that come with that (disrespectful, etc). Four hours later, I was fine. Yet, I am glad I found what I did. It's not anything I will ever make H feel badly for again, because forgiveness and understanding is something I'm seeking as well. But, it was good for me to hear him, for him to tell me how he really feels, to see that there are other people out there who make him happier now. I needed to face that, to see myself, truly, from Hs eyes.

While I can see my faults and what I need to do, I've also been feeling good about myself as well. I think back to how I was when we met, when we first married. I see myself now, and am horrified, it's not who I am. I was good to H, gave him the best of myself and my youth. Similarly, H was good to me, he never lied and only loved me with all his heart. I am not a mean person taking lifes frustrations out on random people. So why am I letting myself be that now? I cut that last week and feel so good. Seeing him happy with another person, oddly, made me cut out of insecurity, fear, anxiety (not to say I don't have my days). After all, I can only be myself, a better me, and see what comes next. I can't try to make him fall back in love. I have to trust that it will come in it's own, natural way. I want to stop hurting his heart. I am a good person, a worthy person, I make lots of people happy, I'm giving and nice, I have values and dreams. I will not be that person that H sees.

Also, somewhere in all the anger, I lost a realization that I had this morning when I woke up to a beautiful morning in nature. Life is good. I am healthy, have friends and family who love me, a job that serves a community in need, a roof over my head and comfort, a value system that I am lucky to be able to live by and honor, a job that I love and have dreamed of for 15 years, and wonderful people all around. I also have a wonderful H. Whatever happens, no matter how bad life seemed, it was still good. I will always cherish and draw happiness and content from the memories of my H when he loved me. I was lucky to have had that. He was good to me, more than words. So, when life is so good, why be so mad, frustrated, insecure, angry, needy? I know this sounds simplistic and pain is human, but so much of my emotions were so unnecessary.

It's time for me to grow up and see things for what they are, to act mature and stop my part in making the madness in my life.

It's true, what you focus on expands. Make it good.

Always,

You're doing a fabulous job here! Keep up the great work...

Betsey