Cobra, I'm still not following, not trying to be obtuse. The first part of your post was an excellent (really top notch) description of how low level depression and/or stress can wreck a man's sex drive. This has opened my eyes as to what H may be feeling. Fascinating!
But then you go back to Schlessinger's ideas, which have not yielded fruit in my marriage. I will continue to do it, simply because it's the right thing to do but there aint any mountains moving in my neck of the woods.
Are you saying that I need to lay off on the talking about emotion?
Refresh my memory if you don't mind....how old are you? Were you an active adult male during the feminist movement...or a child? I just wonder because you appear to have a chip on your shoulder about it, correct me if I'm wrong on that....it's certainly easy enough to get the wrong impression. I'm not name-calling or anything on this...I've just known some men who were adults during that period of time, who truly do have a chip and who do tend to use that as oh....a crutch for lack of a better word, for the reasons women find themselves in the predicaments they do.
I think most HDW's would agree with you that there are FOO issues, or a plethora of other issues that contribute to a man being LD....I think that's pretty much a given. It's not generally a natural state for a man to not want sex, it's simply part of the mans hunter/gatherer instinct to ensure survival of the species. So obviously there are contributing factors/issues to one being LD....as you said.
The problem with what you say on this ("is is a server wound to the male ego. I believe the source of all these types of problems is in the FOO. And until this FOO can be identified, exorcised and healed, the man will continue to be dragged down by it. If the wife continues to put emphasis on her discontent, her need for more quality time, his shortcomings, she is just exacerbating and perpetuating this cycle of depression in the man.")...is that it puts the HDW in a catch-22.
This is exactly the scenario that HP and I often find ourselves in....same as many HDH's out there with their LDW's. If we sit back and don't speak up....nothing happens at all, nothing changes....really. But what I read in what you are saying here....is that if we do speak up, we make the problem worse. I'm not pickin on ya here....just showing you that this is a catch-22. If what Dr. Laura described would work on our men I'd be wholeheartedly on board with what you are saying....it just simply doesn't fit for them. Lord do I wish it did!
I have personally been doing much of what Dr. Laura said in her book. I agreed with the basic premise of her book even before I read it...however, she put into words and helped explain some things I didnt' see clearly.
Her straight talk has helped me change my thinking. One of the issues you mentioned in your last post was for a woman not to express every feeling. For me this has worked. If my feelings were hurt, I'd express it to my husband. If I needed something, I'd express it to my husband. And I am very communicative and a "sensitive" woman (most are).
Anyway, I kind of decided I wanted to be a different type of senstive woman. The other wasn't working in marriage anyway!
I don't depend on my husband to meet my every emotional need. He cannot! He wants to and is unable to and therefore it can drive him nuts.
Now I don't have everything that I WANT as a result! But in this basically SELFISH society...our list (at least mine) would NEVER end!!!! But life is much, much better! And gradually continues to get better. Sometimes, 2 steps forward..1 back..nonetheless it is moving in the right direction.
Ok..to the point now.
I do think women should still initiate converstaion about the relationship...but it needs to be factual and not emotional. AND...when and how it is done must be thought through, rather than just brought up when you FEEL like it.
I have personally found that my willingness to change in this way has made me a stronger and better person in my job, my friends, and my sphere of influence. It has affected me in every area of my life.
Dr. Laura has said, and I agree with it...you look at your marriage and ask is he a good man, do I respect him, does he provide for my family, and etc...and that is why you treat the person with love...vs. in America basically we've been trained to #1 ask ourselves how does this person make ME FEEL..thus love. Hence, I don't think as many negative thoughts about my H becuase I am not being so picky and me oriented.
And if the person is a good person...they will respond in some manner to you...BUT...NOT NECESSARILY IN THE MANNER YOU WANT...because they are not you!
We are wrong when we want our H to make us or keep us happy...and women do it all the time. Strength is to be happy in yourself! Then whatever you H does is a gift!!! And not your entitlement. I could make a list of all the romantic things I wish my H would do for me...I could be a movie writer! But his character is far more lasting than the romance...and so he isn't...too bad..but rather than dwell on that and make my continual requests!!!...focus on the good, accept what cannot be changed and be thankful when something good happens. It makes for a happier atmostphere.
It has helped me to get more invovled in other things and helping other people rather than think all day long about what my H can do for me when he gets home.
My Responsibility is to think about him and do the right thing. What he does in his action toward me is his resonsibility and between him and God.
I've gone on and on trying to communicate and wonder if I have even come close to addressing what is being talked about.
I'm glad you posted this. You are a prime example of how Dr. Laura's prescribed ideas can work for the HD male, which is exactly my point to Cobra.
I just wish there were something equally effective for the LD male. Unfortunately, while they may have many of the same thoughts/reactions/responses as any other man does....they don't respond the same way in this arena.
GEL, I am 47 years old. I don’t feel I have a chip on my shoulder about feminism. My mother does not believe in feminism at all. My sore spot comes from control issues with women (my mom). Since beginning marriage counseling, I have come to realize just how little I stand up for myself against both my mother and my wife, both of whom have personalities every bit as strong as you and HP, if not stronger. It has occurred to me that this feminism trend is simply an institutionalized, or maybe traditionalized, pattern of the same dynamic.
I understand that this male depression situation puts the wife in a catch 22 situation. I do not know the answer top break out of this. But I feel men are in the same Catch 22 with their wives. It is not less frustrating for us to figure how to address this, so in some ways, I can say welcome to our world.
HP, Let me apologize for calling you a “spoiled princess” on the other thread. I don’t mean to be insulting. But step back for a second and take a look at how you are coming at me. I know you are upset, that you feel fully justified in how you feel, that I somehow attacked you and you are simply responding in kind. But the tone of your response is as strong as some of my responses. I know that when I respond in that way, I am reacting because of my own issues. I think you are doing the same.
And like so many have stated on this board, if you react this in cyberspace, then you likely react like this in person. Whether justified or not, most men do not like to be attacked like this. And I suspect your husband is well aware of this fact and does a certain amount of walking on eggshells to avoid this. I did the same with my wife, until I learned to stand up for myself in counseling. This had the affect of making our arguments REALLY bad. She had NO intention of giving up the power and control she always enjoyed (though she did not see this) and I had no intention of backing down to her any more.
But before all this started, I felt I was always giving in. At some point I would have enough, get really angry and blow up. I never thought I was doing the controlling, that I was only occasionally having to defend myself. On the other hand, I think she saw me as someone with an uncontrollable temper, who would explode for no reason, and she was walking on eggshells, not knowing when I would explode.
So when you say your husband used to blow up over the house being messy, I don’t think he will recall those times as a period when he had everything under control. I suspect he will think he has been doing everything he could to support he family and you showed no appreciation for his efforts by letting the house get messy. I don’t even want to address whether his perspective is right or wrong, because it does not matter. All you need to understand is that is how he saw things (assuming I am correct) and that is what accounted for his anger.
Now you are wondering what you can do to “fix” things. As GEL says, you are in a catch 22. You feel every right to speak your feelings, and for him to hear and acknowledge you. But you justification of this “right” is based on the female perspective, because these things are important to women.
If your husband does not have any friends, makes you the center of his relations, is a people pleaser within his family, then my guess is he is VERY insecure and has VERY low self esteem (you may want to find out what in his FOO makes this so). I also suspect there could be some shame-based interaction in his family that affects him. This could mean he feels responsible for the feelings of everyone else, but not himself – obviously a dangerous situation. Couple this with the male value system of needing to appear strong, independent and not mired in feelings, and he has a MAJOR contradiction to deal with.
I’m not going to try and tell you or GEL how to fix this situation, that requires a counselor. But I am trying to explain that is situation might exist, though I don’t know for sure in your specific cases, after all, I am hypothesizing. This is a frustrating situation, I know, but if there is any validity to my suspicions, then I think my theory is important for you to understand.
One last note - I am not saying that women should not express their feelings. I am saying that they should not have expectations that the man must react to those expressions in the way a women would. Some men will do so, others don’t. Just as some women will understand the importance of sex to a man, others won’t. I think it is more productive for you, the woman, to better understand why your husband thinks as he does, and understand what he is willing to do in his response. The difference in what you expect to receive from him and what he intends to deliver is the source of your disappointment. He can change what he delivers and you can change what you expect.
Nicegal,
It sounds to me like your are saying the same thing too.
This is an excellent thread. I have to get this book. For the record, I am the HDW and entered this relationship with distinct feminist tendencies. In my own experience, the 'feed him, sex him and admire (respect him)' theory has been proven correct. I believe this can be applicable to some LDH situations because men are men, regardless of their sex drive. My H is quite fond of reminding me that he is just a simple guy and it doesn't take much to make him happy. While 'much' is a relative term, there is some truth to that!
Cobra, you make some excellent points. My H has tried to make some of these points, but I probably filter what he says. Can you expound more on the "action based communication" of men? I see this a LOT with H. When I try to approach him verbally, he tends to get defensive and clam up, and he will sometimes attack because he knows it is the way to shut me down. Very often, though, his subsequent actions will show that he has heard me. As a woman, this is not validating to me. Maybe all I need is to learn that actions speak louder than words, lol!
Quote: both of whom have personalities every bit as strong as you and HP, if not stronger.
Having a strong personality is not a crime. Nor is it an unfortunate result of feminism. Strong women have been around since the beginning of time.
I have the ability to use my strong personality to do harm or to inject vitality into the lives of those around me. I won't be so grandiose to say that I *exclusively* use it for good, but it is rare these days that I use it in a negative way.
Quote: Let me apologize for calling you a “spoiled princess” on the other thread.
Apology accepted.
Quote: I know you are upset, that you feel fully justified in how you feel, that I somehow attacked you and you are simply responding in kind. But the tone of your response is as strong as some of my responses.
See, I didn't think I was coming across hatefully. I was going for a "set the record straight" type tone and a "drawing a boundary at name calling" tone, but I was not going on the attack.
Quote: And like so many have stated on this board, if you react this in cyberspace, then you likely react like this in person.
Sometimes. More often, I'm calm and attempt to get to the bottom of things. I no longer have any interest in fighting, just for the fight's sake. If he's saying it because he wants a certain behavior to change, then even if he says it hatefully I'll usually listen. Now......if he called me a spoiled princess, which is so unrepresentative of my life, I would probably first bust out laughing (out of sheer surprise, not that sarcastic cutting laugh) and then incredulously ask him what he's basing that on.
Quote: I suspect he will think he has been doing everything he could to support he family and you showed no appreciation for his efforts by letting the house get messy.
This was at a time in which we were both working and I worked longer hours and made more money than he. I have admitted here, freely in fact, that I had a princess attitude when we met. HE installed this dynamic and then detested the very thing he insisted upon. He'd say, "I don't want you to wash dishes; I'll do them." I'd say Ok, and then the resentment began to build in him. You have to understand that my family is very direct--people do not say one thing and mean another. His tendency to do this, as a matter of course, totally took me off guard and it was years before I learned to read between the lines. When I quit my job, the balance of power was really thrown off--as it would be in any R--and he turned from nitpicking to downright cutting criticism. You have to understand that the level of perfection he wants in his home is unattainable. His father was the same way and he spent most of his childhood keeping everything perfect as a way to please his dad. "It was the only way to make him happy and keep him from criticizing me", he said.
Quote: my guess is he is VERY insecure and has VERY low self esteem
Probably true.
I can identify areas in his FOO where this originated from, but how does this knowledge help him change? Even if he could precisely pinpoint where it came from, in what way does it help him eliminate it? I think that Chrome's self esteem exercises, behavioral modification IOW, is going to be far more effective with esteem problems. I think it's useful to see where it came from, and how it developed, but how does it facilitate change?
Quote: The difference in what you expect to receive from him and what he intends to deliver is the source of your disappointment.
Not entirely. The source of my disappointment is his own promises that he makes and then does not keep.
Quote: He can change what he delivers and you can change what you expect.
Hey Jules, I want to add that my H responds well to the feed sex and admire him. He is a MAN, like you said.
It is only the follow up section, the "if you do this, he will move mountains for you.." that doesn't ring true in my home. I mean, my H adores me. I know this and will do whatever little piddly chore I ask of him, but he'd have done that before I started feeding, sexing and admiring him. He just does it without resentment now!
It's the reciprocation..the interacting with me in ways that are most meaningful to me..that's where he draws the line and draws out the "I'm not like that" card.
Gotcha, HP! What I am saying is that the 'feed, sex and admire him' thing will raise his level of contentment and happiness significantly. Beyond that - it still goes back to the principles of boundaries and stating your preferences and whether or not he is willing to step outside his comfort zone and on to the plate. If I hadn't drawn a boundary, I doubt he would even have looked to see where the plate was at, regardless of his level of happiness.
Personally, I think your H still battles resentment, though he may not tell you this. The "I am not like this." is code for "I don't want to do this." Can you explore why he is resentful? Like Cobra said, he may feel that nothing he ever does is enough. This is a biggie with my H too, although he is finally becoming convinced that I am not a bottomless well of wants and needs.
The only question I have with Dr. Laura's book is this: She claims that if a wife will feed, sex, respect a husband he will suddenly want to move mountains and "Go slay the dragons" for his wife. She will see an immediate improvement in her man as she works to pay more attention to him.
But in my case, I am not getting the food, the sex, the respect, yet I still move mountains and slay the dragons, simply because I love my wife. I do not agree with everything my wife does and the way I am treated, but I still love the woman and work my butt off for her. If my wife suddenly started doing what Dr. Laura suggests, would I be happy? Heck Yeah! I'd love that! But what would I then start doing for her that I am not already doing now? I can't think of anything. I am already doing everything I can...
So does that mean I should start doing less for my wife so she will be encouraged to take up Dr. Laura's philosphy and pay more attention to me? I don't know... If I did start doing less, I'd have to take a self esteem blow as I would feel like a terrible husband. It is in my nature to want to serve those that I love. But at the same time, what is the incentive to my wife to change her ways? Nothing. Why suddenly start doing all of that stuff, when you are already treated like a princess? That's suddenly a whole lot more effort on her part, with no rewards. Maybe that is why she she so quickly blew off the book as BS when I wanted her to read it...
But life is much, much better! And gradually continues to get better. Sometimes, 2 steps forward..1 back..nonetheless it is moving in the right direction.