Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums Infidelity/Extramarital Affairs/Jealousy Learning to Trust Myself VI

Hey BF, I will consider starting a thread on the SSM board, I can barely keep my situation updated on one thread much less two. But a SSM is not far off from where I will be soon, so I guess it's not much of a leap to start a thread there.

Ive been watching you and corri. She has some excellent places for you to start. VERY excellent.

Yes, she has pointed out some great things. I bought the book the Four Agreements and am 2/3 of the way done. I love the principles themselves, although I don't care for the author's perspective when he gets more detailed about the meaning of each agreement. But overall, the four agreements are definitely something anyone can benefit from. Thanks for the suggestion Corri!

Why did I repost this to you? What do you see in this. Whats your job as a W? euuuuwwwww gross. I said job.

Wow. My job as a W. To bring him his beer to help stop that to the fridge-outside-to the bathroom-to the fridge cycle? I'm not sure where you're going with that question. Possibly that I should be supportive of his progress?

Jabez,

You so sweet to come to Heathers defense.
lol. Does this mean I have to fight you, before I can put my smack down on her? <crazy frenchmans voice> draw your sword, man! j/k

Heather knows karate, she doesn't need anyone to defend her. I was stating my opinion, even as a male, I didn't think porn was a vialable outlet for one's sexual energy, i.e. its not a guy thing.

The only fencing I've ever done involved pickets, a hammer and nails. I've only ever yelled "On Guard!" to my thumb.

Heather,

I am not quoting the right post, but you said that some of your "friends" here are probably confused and not too sure what advice to give you right now.

Well, I may or may not be a friend to you here, but I am not confused. I just keep seeing the same thing in a lot of what you post. You, like me and many others here like to play the "but" game. I love when NYS told me that everything before a "but" in a sentence should be ignored because usually what comes after it is invalidates it and is closer to the truth (my phrasing, not his exact quote...he hates incorrect quotes).
You like to say things like "My H has done ok with the bedtime thing BUT he plays that stupid game with S5 and it really bothers me." Please, that was not an attempt at a quote, just something to illustrate the type of thought process I see from you and many of us here.
To me it represents a need we have to be right all the time. It is us holding on to that and not being willing to let go and really live in the moment, accepting whatever happens and NOT trying to control it, OR be right.
The hardest part for me is that most of the time I am right...lol. Sound familiar? "Ok, fine, H wants to stay up with S5, I get that BUT I know it's the wrong thing to do..."
What we need to realize is that in a world of only 2 people (in a M, it really is that sometimes) and where there are only 2 points of view, not so much right and wrong (so long as nobody gets hurt) US being right is subjective. Sure, in the real world, populated by priests, psychologists, friends, family, etc, there is right and wrong and tons of ways to tell one from the other. In our world, YOUR world, there is only his perspective and yours and both of you have very distorted perspectives because of what's going on so it makes it even harder to come to the same places in conversations or life in general.

The only advice I have is that you truly need to give in to this process and just "go". Become more self aware. Become less judgmental (my weakness). Become the woman you really believe you are, not that woman your actions keep defining. Until you do that for you, your H will probably not be able to see it in you. How can he see something that's not there.

I think you can do this thing. Like you've been told, it's not really strength (thanks for that, never really thought about it like that) it's more about checking yourself against the values and ideals YOU decide you want to define you and dismissing the garbage from the past.

I will continue to follow you. I have faith in you.

GH

I see the underlying point in your post GH. I know that the only thing I can do is change myself, yet a lot of my focus has been on H and what he is doing/not doing, saying/not saying, etc. Saving a M is a tough thing to do, especially when neither partner is really sure they want to save it. I've known all along that I want a M with my H, but I did not want the M we had. I know it goes against DB principles to try to change someone else. The fact is, I was/am not willing to continue in a M where the same dynamics occur. I have been getting better at changing my behavior and my reactions. The question remains however, if H can change his behavior enough to make him a person that I am willing to fight for. I've always wanted to fight for my family, but I was torn because I didn't want to be with the H that was there. I know he can be more, I know I can be more. I'm willing to try. But 18 months since my indiscretion, I am no longer willing to carry the heaviest burden. I needed to see something from him that showed me he was serious about getting our M back on track, not just 'staying together for the kids'. Someone posted something to me once, that DB is for couples who have had an overall good R and then ran into trouble. I have had some difficulty describing my R with H as 'an overall good R'. We got together very young and established patterns and behaviors that were not healthy for us as individuals, nor did it make for a particularly happy R. I have been with H since I was 17 and don't know anything else, so it has been very difficult for me to gauge 'normal' or 'healthy' for my own behavior OR his. I'm learning more about myself and what I will and will not tolerate in this new R, but it's also been another whole journey to learn how to NOT tolerate. How much force? How much gentleness? What about timing? What about compromise? These have all been very skewed for me because my H is rightfully very angry with me so most of what I do is criticized. Being repeatedly told I'm selfish has made it next to impossible for me to feel good about myself and how I'm handling things. I'm learning a lot of things that are helping me to view my situation more objectively and more compassionately.

The good news is that we have been doing very well the past couple of weeks. I have bitten my tongue a couple of times and something that I read in the Four Agreements has helped me with that: refraining is different than repressing. I always viewed it as repressing and 'giving in' if I didn't make it known that I disagree with something. Refraining is waiting until the right time. That helps me tremendously. I don't have to wait forever. Just until the right time.
And last night, H said something that I can hardly even believe he said. He said "The bed thing isn't that big of a deal, it's just that I keep waiting for things to turn [bad]." When he says the 'bed thing' he is referring to the fact that I haven't slept in my own bed in a very long time and he was letting me know that the significance he places on it has pretty much diminished which tells me that if we can keep on this path, I will be back in my bed soon. In fact, if I wanted to be aggressive, I probably could have slept in my own bed last night. But I don't want to be aggressive, so I said "We'll just take it slow and when it's time, you'll know".
I think the conversation was brought on by the fact that he is feeling the lack of sex and I've expressed that I'm uncomfortable having sex but yet not being allowed to kiss or sleep in my own bed. He didn't address the kissing part.

I've expressed my gratitude for how well he took care of me while I was sick. I've started talking about the future again, as though both of us will share the same future. Talking about the business he wants to start, talking about a house, etc.

Lots of positive.

I know it goes against DB principles to try to change someone else.

Actually, DR says the exact opposite. It says that changing people is actually the goal of DR. It's just that you do that by first changing yourself.

I am not going to respond to each of your thoughts because one of them really stood out to me:

Someone posted something to me once, that DB is for couples who have had an overall good R and then ran into trouble.

Really? So how long did the M have to be good versus the time it was bad to qualify? In who's mind does it have to have been good/bad. Do both partners need to feel the same way about the M overall?
My point is that in the case of a WAS, they almost universally feel the marriage has ALWAYS been bad. Forgive me, but that is sorta what you were, and you may still have those feelings that led to your "indiscretion". It is usually not so bad as the WAS thinks, nor nearly as good as the LBS thinks.

You know, really, before this post, I kinda forgot for a second that you probably had feelings, well you DID have feelings that led to OM and such. I think those feelings never went away and now, after so long of a battle trying single-handedly to fix your M, you are having some of the same negative feelings about your H and M.

It's just so sad that your H cannot find the strength/resources/whatever to see your effort for what it is. I'm sure that if he could, some of this feeling that the R/M was never really that good, and the negative feelings you are having towards him would fade a bit.

Just an aside from my sitch that I think may help you...

In my C session yesterday, I said to my C that I felt like somehow I was trying to win my W back and how much that sucked because SHE's the one who cheated on ME. I went on to say that I understood that whatever pain she inflicted and wrong she did to me, there was a valid reason in her mind to do it. She got to that point with my help and I needed to remove my part of the barrier to allow her to come back. Of course, it's then up to her to win ME back, but we're not there yet.

My point is, and you know this, your H played a part in all this, from however long ago it started to go sour, to now and until he gets over himself long enough to see that, things will be much more difficult.
He is wallowing in his pain and anger, and has been for over a year now. Understandable I guess, but unfortunate as well.

For you, I guess I hope you can continue to find the positive in things like you are now. I really think it will infuse life into you and maybe your H in turn. Who knows.
I am proud of you for sticking it out this long and more power to you to continue as long as you are willing to.

GH

Actually, DR says the exact opposite. It says that changing people is actually the goal of DR. It's just that you do that by first changing yourself.

Thanks for reminding me of that. People around here say a lot that you can't change someone else, you can only change yourself. The effect your changes have on another CAN change another person and I remember on the KLA tapes, Michele said it's actually impossible to change yourself without changing your partner too.

Really? So how long did the M have to be good versus the time it was bad to qualify? In who's mind does it have to have been good/bad. Do both partners need to feel the same way about the M overall?
My point is that in the case of a WAS, they almost universally feel the marriage has ALWAYS been bad.

The interactions between H and I during conflict have always been bad. H has always had extreme tendencies, going from very controlling to very apathetic. H has always had a drinking problem. These things did not come up as a result of my A. Some things got much worse as a result of my A however, such as the controlling tendencies and his anger reverted back to being something he couldn't control. Since I am a much different person now than I was before when he displayed those tendencies, my reactions were very much defensive EVERY time. I refuse to go back to being that girl who allowed herself to be told what she could wear and what she could do and where she could go, I would leave this M and never look back before I would allow that to happen. So, although I had done something very bad to our M, there was more involved in the dynamics between H and I because of the repeating patterns from the beginning of our R. I was probably more aggressive and defensive than I needed to be, but looking back, I was assuring H understood that I wasn't going to be that girl again and no amount of guilt over what I had done was going to change that fact. Now that the power struggles are ending between us, I can look back and see that although my actions discouraged me at the time because they seemed to make everything 'worse', I am actually quite proud of myself for taking a stand. Things are not worse anymore. If I take where we are now and compare to where we were a year ago......things are much, much better. So as hard as I've been on both H and myself, we must be doing some things right.

I appreciate that things are never quite as bad or as good as one may remember. But I choose not to oversimplify with that idea either. My R with H has always been unhealthy at best. And no, both partners don't have to feel that way. H can feel differently about our R all he wants, but it doesn't change my past experience with him. We have certainly had many good times and I will say that it would help to be reminded of those good times and hear his happy memories and how those memories made him feel at the time. Knowing he was happy would help, but again, it wouldn't change my experiences with him.

For you, I guess I hope you can continue to find the positive in things like you are now.

I don't know if you have been following my situation long enough to know how H responded when I tried to sleep in my own bed quite some time ago. It turned into a very abusive situation, it is one of my worst memories. For H to tell me the other night that the 'bed thing' is not a 'big deal'.......THAT is a huge deal. It is a huge positive step in our R. To me, it is a sign of some major healing that has taken place within H.

Heather,

I don't know if you have been following my situation long enough to know how H responded when I tried to sleep in my own bed quite some time ago. It turned into a very abusive situation, it is one of my worst memories. For H to tell me the other night that the 'bed thing' is not a 'big deal'.......THAT is a huge deal. It is a huge positive step in our R. To me, it is a sign of some major healing that has taken place within H.

Lol, no, remember, I was the one who thought you were a LBS. So, I am REALLY glad to hear how positive that is for you.
I am also glad to see H is getting somewhere in all this.
I think you and I have some similar fears even though we are on opposite sides of the proverbial fence. I fear that my W will not grow through this and I will not accept the person she WAS in our OLD M if that's how she chooses to try to be in our new M if we ever get there.
I think you are just getting to the point where you can step back and really evaluate EVERYTHING without the constant fog of the A and it's aftermath. It's a good thing and maybe you are seeing things you like a lot, and some you don't. I think you are doing well to embrace the positive right now.

I think you are a STRONG woman and I would never downplay the issues you feel are going on with your H or M that made you feel controlled. Those are real, and I understand you never wanting to go back to that.
In some way I really feel for you because I have been controlling in my own way with my W and it really presents problems now that I have a valid REASON (in my mind anyway) to mistrust her and question everything she does. The good news is that those feelings are controllable and if I can control them, anyone can I think. Subtle control and manipulation of a situation was almost like a religion to me but I think I am well on my way to giving it up in favor of letting things play out. It's much more real that way and filled with much less disappointment. Funny, I would NEVER have thought that possible 3 months ago.

Like I said, please value your H's positive moves and do it from the position of strength you naturally have. As he gets stronger and more healed, your strength will be a complement to his, not a detriment to it.
I think that's how it's supposed to be in a good relationship, but what do we know, neither of us have probably been in one before...lol.

GH

wow heather

your right lots of positive. patience.

ok about your H's drinking. This is not about whether he has a problem with it or not. The following, is about how he feels because of your reactions to it.

You have said where it was in the beginning, and the times that he chose to modify and reduce it.
question. What will be good enough for you? Because from his perspective it doesnt matter what he does it will never be good enough. He even switched to Odouls and instead of getting any sort of positive reinforcement for progress, and he HAS made a ton of it since the beginning, you HATE that too.
Have you ever said to him, 'I was so impressed when you cut down your drinking when S was born'? Or 'Wow, you cut down your drinking when we split/were close to Ding. I thought you would drink even more. Your strength surprised me'.

praise him for what he has accomplished. Let him know you see the progress. 'H i just realized, you only drink 2 days a week, now. I remember how much it was when we were first together. Wow. You really changed alot for us havent you. Thank you' give him a quick hug. drop it. move on.


Your H will make changes to hiself -when he is ready- but he will be much more inclined to do so when he FEELS that it will be appreciated. The constant drip drip drip of your disapproval and nagging will not encourage him to do so. No in fact it will just prompt him to continue doing whatever it is, just to spite you and prove he is a man who makes his own decisions.
This is not specifically intentional. Its just a subconcious reaction.

At first when you said sarcasticly 'I should get him his beer' I was like nooooo that would just be enabling. but then I got to thinking about it. I wonder what effect it would have on him. It would shake him up. It would shake up his habitual pattern that he has of outside-bathroom-tv. That is a physical part of the habit.

For example 'NO NO H let ME get that beer for you' with humor, not sarcasm. shake things up. mess up his pattern.

another thing. do you grouse to yor gf's about this, or do you praise him to them? Do you say negative things to them, when he can hear you, to try to effect some change?


Your doing good, things are moving along. I like that you are talking about the future together.
Dont worry about the kissing. it will come. He is holding it over your head, because it hurt him so badly.

I think you are just getting to the point where you can step back and really evaluate EVERYTHING without the constant fog of the A and it's aftermath.

In addition to the fact that I'm not an LBS , there is something else you should know about my situation in case you don't already. I did not have an A in the way that most people do; there really was no fog. I was not in love with someone else, I was not infatuated by someone else, I did not meet my soul mate, etc. Someone gave me a lot of attention at a time when I didn't realize I was quite as vulnerable as I was. I fell for it. I kissed this guy and spent time with him on about 5 different occasions although I didn't even like him much less feel anything similar to love. He was not my type, not physically appealing to me and came from a different walk of life than me. When I 'broke it off', there was no feeling of loss, no sadness, no temptations to get back in touch, etc. I simply told him never to speak to me again and hung up. That was that. I didn't feel guilty; he knew I was married. When you play with fire, you get burned. We both got burned and I didn't feel any more sorry for him than my H felt for me.

The main reason I am pointing this out is because it may help you get a better feel for my situation and what the A was like for me and for my M. The aftermath of the A definitely caused a fog, but my 'feelings for OM' did not cause a fog because there weren't any.

In some way I really feel for you because I have been controlling in my own way with my W and it really presents problems now that I have a valid REASON (in my mind anyway) to mistrust her and question everything she does.

That's a conundrum isn't it? Same thing in my M. My H has a very valid reason to mistrust me, but I'm not willing to be controlled. I've made efforts on my own part, offering my phone records, my email password, etc. because I understand his feelings. But this is different than being controlled because I want to do these things and I understand it is important in rebuilding trust. But to be told I cannot go to a business dinner that my boss has requested my presence at.....no way. That is control. And I won't have it regardless of what I have done to 'deserve' it. I am still a human being and I happen to have a great job that asks very little from me and honors my commitment to my family above all else. If my boss requests my presence at a dinner one time, I will do my best to be there. If you're wondering about the significance of this, it was an issue in my M very recently.

I understand it must be hard to not be controlling when you feel you are more justified than ever. Just think about it this way~ultimately if you and W reconcile, you would want her to stay faithful of her own accord, not because you were restricting everything she does to the point where she was faithful by default right? She has to have enough freedom to have the free will to make that choice.

I think that's how it's supposed to be in a good relationship, but what do we know, neither of us have probably been in one before...lol.



What will be good enough for you?

Honestly? For the anxiety and stress I feel about it to be gone. Gone. Not just diminished. That would be good enough for me. This IS the rest of my life we're talking about here. What's 'good enough' for the rest of my life? Hmm. As close to great as possible!!

Because from his perspective it doesnt matter what he does it will never be good enough.

I see your point and he has said as much. I come from a family of alcoholics and had a pretty unpleasant childhood because of it. I realize he may need encouragement and support. In the past, I have pretty much taken the stance that he should not look for that from me. If he needs help, he should get help. I am his wife, not his AA sponsor. When he drinks, he affects more people than just himself. Same with smokers. You know, they're ousting smokers from just about everywhere these days. Because they infringe on other people's rights. An alcoholic person in a household infringes on many people's rights and then when they act indignant about it.....I can't imagine a way to make me angrier than that. My home is my refuge from the world.....my H is supposed to be my 'soft place to fall' as Dr. Phil puts it. Alcohol messes it all up and I haven't had much sympathy.

Since it has gotten so much better, I do believe I am at a place where I can be more supportive however. And I will try. I will try to tell H that I think he's done a really impressive thing. Because I do believe he has. Thanks for the little push to encourage him, I think I can handle that.

another thing. do you grouse to yor gf's about this, or do you praise him to them? Do you say negative things to them, when he can hear you, to try to effect some change?

No, I have not done that. I rarely, if ever, talked negatively about H prior to my A. My friends were shocked because they thought we had the 'perfect M'. I am a very proud person and did not disclose the bad things about my M. I wanted everyone to think we had the perfect R.

Your doing good, things are moving along. I like that you are talking about the future together.
Dont worry about the kissing. it will come. He is holding it over your head, because it hurt him so badly.

Thanks BF. I am really happy with the place we are and the direction we're going. He's been so great the last few weeks. I want to do something a little special to keep the positive energy going, nothing over the top. Any ideas?

Heather,

I'm not THAT new to your sitch. After my first misunderstanding, I read up on you. I know about most of your issues and I don't think I was insinuating that you were in love with OM. I know it was a different kind of affair and the fog I was thinking of was more that "vaulnerability" you are talking about when you did what you did. Those are the feelings I was talking about sticking around.
As for the dinner, yea, I thought that was a bit of BS on his part and I think you displayed a TON virtue in how you handled that.
I think I have said this on many occasions, both to you and around the boards; if my W did a fraction of what you are doing to win the trust of your H and rebuild your marriage, I would be ready to forgive and move on.

You are a great woman who is trying to do the right thing. I admire you greatly for that. Never be willing to be controlled. You don't need to control someone to have them be faithful to them.

I wish you luck and patience going forward.

GH