Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums Infidelity/Extramarital Affairs/Jealousy Learning to Trust Myself VI

Heather,

Most interactions that are difficult with your H come down to one thing. And I see in your H much of the same behavior I saw in my H. In your H's eyes it is all about him wanting to have a say and have that be respected. He doesn't want to feel controlled by you. I realize that you are not trying to control, and are making every effort to be reasonable, compromise, etc. But if it is like my H, he got to a point where he just decided he was taking a firm stand and wouldn't let me boss him around in any way, even if it was only in his mind. Your H is acting out against feeling controlled. And this is his perspective, even if it isn't entirely accurate. I think this may be a part of the core issue going on beneath it all and something to work on in MC. My H even admitted to me that he would fight against anything he interpreted to be giving in to my way, regardless if I was being reasonable or not, simply because he didn't want to do that anymore. I don't think this has to be your H's long-term perception, but it is his perception right now. And there is likely some truth to it. So now he is responding by going overboard with rebelling against that. It will take some time, but I do not think this is an issue that cannot be overcome. Your H and you are not a team anymore. It's about control and one of you "winning" and I def. recognize that stand-off behavior that results. So work with your C to find out how you can start to change that dynamic.

That's his "hobby", Heather. Why let it irk you?

Honestly? Because I knew this game would be a problem. H has been gearing S5 up for it for months. As S5 gets older, I can see this being a 'thing'. Father and son will stay up as late as they can possibly get away with to play these stupid games. It's obsessive and it will continue to be a problem as S5 gets older. When he's a teenager, I can see him and H staying up until all hours of the night just like H did with his friends when he was in high school. The thing is, it didn't work out so well for H. The kinds of people that are obsessive about those types of games aren't the kind of people I would hope for as friends of my son. They are weird quite frankly and even H will admit it. Another reason it didn't work so well for H is that it fed his night owl routine. Being a night owl doesn't work very well in our society and I don't want to set up S5 to be that way from the time he was 4 yrs old, ya know? People function best in our world when they sleep at night and are at the top of their game during the day and that is what I want for my son.

That's just the mini version of why it irks me

Anything else happen earlier in the day between you two? You said you had a bad day.

Not really, I just had a bad day emotionally. We haven't really been speaking the last few days. Like I said, he was nice the day of his surgery and he's retreated since then. His quickness to snap at me and not display any kindness toward me does not make me any more kind toward him either. It is a cycle, but it is one I know I can break because I did it the day of his surgery. I was angry and hurt, but when he put his hand in mine, it all went away and I was able to be kind and considerate of him. As he's retreated again I find my wall being resurrected.

SH put that in a much more concise way. Very well said. I guess I picked up on the same thing about your H.
In W's case she didn't so much actively rebel against my controlling behavior but she would get to a point where she would say things like how she was going to get this or that job, make her own money and start to do what she wanted to do no matter what. This was BEFORE the bombs fell (can you say warning sign?). My point is that my W didn't know how to combat or deal with my control issues other than to completely rebel and react drastically instead of trying to communicate her frustration. Possibly her A started as her finally acting on her desire to escape my control.
This seems like where your H is at right now, and my hope is that your C will be able to help you both change your behavior and communication so H will not feel controlled and you both can get to a point where you can make these decisions and stick to them without someone feeling "wrong".

GH

It didn't work.

That was when you first tried it, and it didn't work, but you know, you have to give it time and see if it takes effect (with anything you do), which you did, and it's still not working. Somewhere along the line I added a suggestion to drop everything instead and dump all responsibility into H's lap. maybe it's time to try something new, as when something turns out not to work, it's time to do something different.

Again, the idea behind dropping all responsibility is that H knows what the deal is, in this case, a reasonable bedtime for S, which also includes S wrapping up activities, winding down, preparing for bed. Without you "prodding", for lack of a better term, it leaves it all to H to accomplish, and taken out of the equation is any reason to do battle with you (because you're not going to mention that it's bedtime, you're not going to check and see if S is getting ready for bedtime, you're not going to say a peep about it nor make your presence known, nada, nothing, zilch). Then, freed from that focus against you, H may rise to the occasion, feeling that it's entirely his choice and that he's not being "forced" to do something he does not wish to do and rebel against it. This may take some time to take effect as well.

To go back to a previous question of mine: You wrote that H was cooperating, but that last night he did not. You had also written that you had a bad day. So, in my mind, knowing that H strikes passive-aggressively, I wondered if his power struggle with you last night was his P/A way of getting back at you for events that occurred between the two of you earlier in the day or evening.

I don't think it's realistic to expect H to make any significant improvements right now, as you've only just started counseling sessions, and so, any improvements would be down the road a bit, if they are to come at all. This is like a holding period for you, so maybe the best way for you to view this time is as temporary with a wait and see attitude.

I happened to watch a Dr. Phil episode the other day, not that I'm a big Dr. Phil fan at all, but I was channel surfing and came upon a show where he had a couple where the H was a major control freak and his W had been emotionally pummeled to the point of being a victim, yet she knew she wasn't happy. I believe it was the H who originally contacted the show for help, his interest being "Please help my wife be a better wife". Dr. Phil had a couple of sessions with them prior to their appearance on the show, and it was in those sessions where the H had the aha! moments where he began to see how the problem was really about how H was instrumental in making things worse, and how his expectations and frustration were influencing him to act as he did. Sometimes, a third impartial party can help, so, let's see if further C sessions benefit the two of you.

Ok guys, you're going to have to be really blunt with me because I'm not getting it. I wanted a 9pm bedtime, but we compromised on 9:30. Now that isn't working either. He did have some say-we both agreed on that.

I don't know, I guess I'm confused. I don't see this as H rebelling against my control, I see this as H trying to maintain control. Trying to keep the status quo where I don't challenge him and if I do I am taught that it will be to my detriment.

This is where I start to feel like I'm less than sane, because this is more of the same in my eyes, yet maybe you all don't agree?

Honestly? Because I knew this game would be a problem. H has been gearing S5 up for it for months. As S5 gets older, I can see this being a 'thing'. Father and son will stay up as late as they can possibly get away with to play these stupid games. It's obsessive and it will continue to be a problem as S5 gets older. When he's a teenager, I can see him and H staying up until all hours of the night just like H did with his friends when he was in high school. The thing is, it didn't work out so well for H. The kinds of people that are obsessive about those

When you first posted about H's obsession with the game, your thoughts were about the seeming extremes H goes to with buying pieces for the game and posting on a site about the game. I was suggesting to let that be and accept it, without attaching your value judgments and other scenarios to it (S's bedtime issue is not about the game H has an interest in). Just as you have an interest in karate, and if you frequented a site about it, and went to karate conventions and went out and purchased supplies for your interest or whatever. I'll ask you to see it as a separate interest of his that he's entitled to, pure and simple, and not justify why karate is better than a board game.

In your quote above, you're projecting into the future, based on your evident bias against this game, and making judgments about the types of people who play this game.

Not really, I just had a bad day emotionally.

Perhaps H picked up on that atmosphere but took it personally and assumed negatives about it? I don't know, I don't live in your pocket. If you don't mind, we could set up surveillance cameras and document all your interactions and send them to Dr. Phil for analysis, which I say jokingly, but it's not a bad idea, is it?

Like I said, he was nice the day of his surgery and he's retreated since then.

The day of surgery he was vulnerable and needed care, Mummy.

S's bedtime issue is not about the game H has an interest in).

The issues are so close entwined. Part of H's extreme behavior is staying up so late, not being able to stop. When he used to role play......can I just say they used to literally stay up all night? It's not a good habit, it's not a good environment and you can spot these people a mile away. They have an air about them that's all I can say.
The issue of S5's bedtime is separate for the most part. I can just see the relationship that H is trying to develop with his son and I read a post he wrote which confirmed it. Like a father looks forward to playing baseball with his son one day, H looks forward to gaming with S5. If it could be done within reason and during daylight hours and not taken to an extreme, I would be fine with it. But asking an extremist not to take something to an extreme is kind of funny. Would you stay up until 6am playing baseball? Probably not. That's the difference. It's more than a game.

And here comes something else that I need to admit: I'm jealous. Not OF my son. Of the relationship they have. H has all the patience and love in the world for our kids, S5 in particular. And yet he is so cold to me. I see S5 and H play together and have fun together and that is something that H and I cannot do. H has the R with his son that I want to have with my H. It's all I've ever wanted and I guess I didn't think H was capable. Until we had S5. And now I see that he is capable, just not with me. I hope I've made it clear that I wouldn't change a thing for my son. And I'd also like to make it clear that I don't think my envy has anything to do with how I handle bedtime or our other issues. The fact is just there and it hurts like hell to see it every day and know that H has that much love to give. But not to me.

Heather,

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that part of the problem here is that you have NO respect for, or interest in something that is a BIG part of your H's life. These games he plays are something that he clearly values and wants to pass the enjoyment of onto his son.
I know I played some of those games when I was a kid and I didn't suffer for it at all. I still play video games and such, but I outgrew the other stuff. Just because your S5 plays the games now does NOT mean he'll play them all his life anymore than a son that plays baseball with his father will play baseball all his life.
I know I am making a big issue of this but it seems like it may be a larger problem than you realize between you and your H. With me and my W the issue is video games. I play them and I let my S5 play them with me/by himself. If it were up to her, he would never play at all. She sees NO value in them and basically thinks that they're a waste of time. I'm sure, like your thoughts on your H's gaming, she also harbors the opinion that playing too many video games will lead to doing poorly in school and being a general "loser" in life. Of course I know MANY very successful people that play as much or more than I do (actually I hardly play anymore) and see no real correlation between success or lack thereof and video games.
She's warmed up over the years and now even bought him a gameboy for his birthday last year and understands that while there are better things to do with a kid's time, it's also not the end of the world if he plays video games too.
Last thing on this subject. You also said that your real problem was that they played too late, etc, and if it were during the day you'd have no problem with it. I think that is a bit untrue. I think you wish your S5 did not have ANY exposure to this game and it is causing you to react the way you are.
YOU ARE NOT WRONG about this by the way, and I am not saying you are, I am just continuing to point out that your H's perspective on all this is VERY different from yours.

Sorry to go off on that tangent, but like NYS said, you are projecting the future here, and it may never come true.

As for your jealousy, part of that may just be the father/son relationship dynamic where at the age your son is now, he is just starting to identify with dad and take interest in his interests. Your role in his life right now is a little more undefined but no less important. I know in my family this is happening.

Finally, I just keep reading your posts and you keep going back to the issue of "well, we had an agreement" and the like. Yes, you did but sometimes there are battles that are just not worth fighting. This seems to be one.
I really like what NYS said about totally letting go of the situation and making your H handle it. He IS an equal partner in all this and if he thinks there is a better way than the way you two have discussed, then fine, let him have his day (or week or whatever) in the sun. Will it irreparably harm your son?
Let your H take care of all the nasty bed time, rule setting stuff and you just kick back and try to find new ways to have fun and connect with S5. When your H starts complaining about the burden, or your lack of help, don't rebuke him, kindly offer suggestions, if you have any, that may assist him and go back to what you were doing. If he gets more forceful about things, then kindly remind him that you would love to help more but don't want to make him think you're trying to get your way or be right. Do NOT be snotty or "I told ya so" about any of this. Again, it's about HIM asserting his parenting...er...skills and not anyone being right.
The goal of this would NOT be to watch him fail. The goal would be to actually have him succeed, and have it be something that YOU backed off and allowed him the space to do. You may question if he CAN succeed, but it will be much easier for you to accept his input IF he does succeed, and much more likely that he accept YOURS if he fails. It's a win-win, no?
I understand your fears, but also understand that if your marriage fails and you S or D, then your H will be totally free to play games with S5 as late as he wants and you will have NO real say in it. It seems better to let go a bit and see what happens.
Just my 2.5 cents.

GH

I really like what NYS said about totally letting go of the situation and making your H handle it. He IS an equal partner in all this and if he thinks there is a better way than the way you two have discussed, then fine, let him have his day (or week or whatever) in the sun.

Heather, I'm going to jump in on this and encourage you to take the advice of NYS and GH. Think of this as an experiment. Totally drop the rope on the S5 bedtime battle for 5 consecutive weekdays and monitor what happens. While H & S5 are doing their thing, be available physically and emotionally, but just leave them be. Let H & S5 decide when its time to go to bed. I'm guessing that after 2 or 3 late nights, S5 is going to be cranky either in the morning (let H do the morning routine w/S5 too) or as the clock approaches the witching hour. See how H handles it when S5 starts nodding off in the middle of whatever is going on.

I don't remember if you or H takes the kids in the morning, but if you have to leave at X:00, the politely tell H that you are leaving at X:00 and if S5 isn't ready, then politely ask H to take him.

Are you really jealous of H's R w/S5? I can understand that you feel like H doesn't pay attention to you. I can understand that you feel like H doesn't spend "quality time" w/you. Look at H's R w/S5. Is it a healthy father & son relationship? Does H act like a father? Is H really genuinely interested in S5? Does H love S5 like a parent? Is their R more like friends? Is this the R that you want w/H?

Hey guys, what I suggested to Heather has nothing to do with anything more than the concept that, when left alone and no pressure is given, people may do the 'right thing' after all of their own accord. It's not about the kids getting cranky as a result that motivates H to step up to the plate, it's not about if H can come up with a better routine, it's just about creating an environment for something positive to happen.

As an illustration, when my daughter was small, one night I was talking to her mom in the kitchen and she kept interrupting us because her favorite TV show that she usually watched at that time wasn't on, and she kept wanting us to come into the den and do something with her. Well, we kept shooing her away so we could talk and every five minutes she'd come back in. So I turned to her finally and said, "What did you use to do before that show was on?" We can look at that as she now knew what was expected of her, just like Heather's H knows what's expected of him: a decent bedtime for S and getting him ready for bed.

About ten minutes later my daughter came back into the kitchen, all smiles, holding up a drawing she just drew.

IOW, she rose to the occasion. She didn't keep lamenting that the show wasn't on. She didn't keep interrupting us to come and play with her. We had left her alone with no interference, no specific direction, no assistance, no help, no being there for her in any way, shape or form - and she, of her own accord, did something constructive instead.