GH....you effen got it!! You GOT it...and you got the payoff!!
And dammit if your post didn't just move me to tears...happy tears though. I'm thrilled beyond belief to have been a part of your aha moment...kinda makes all these posts worth writing if just one person gets it, listens and learns from the experiences of others.
As you said she generally hints, insinuates...somehow in her recent journey, she's learned how to come out and ask for what she wants. That my friend is what the journey is all about. To bring you both closer through communication, intimacy...slow baby steps. Points for the W and points for GH for coming through!! If I had a bottle of champagne right about now, the drinks would be on me!!
She went for the VDay...woo hoo...I had a sneaking suspicion that she would my friend. Now a suggestion and JUST a suggestion...regarding the coat, an excellent idea, she'll of course need one but unless you are extremely comfortable in choosing what she would like or living with the rejection, why don't you mention that you were thinking that you had wanted to get her a coat for the trip...but you'd like for her to pick it out...a Vday outing (maybe even lunch!) while the kids are at school. This way, you get to be the knight in buying it and she would pick out and model for you exactly what she is looking for. Of course you know your W best but...just a thought.
And next time my friend stop while you are ahead, keep the sarcasm to yourself...it wasn't a horrible backslide.
Okay...Kleenex please...damn, wish I had someone to wipe these tears away. Oh well...
Wow, I don't think anyone has admitted to crying over my thread...well, maybe they have, but I am touched. I am so lucky to have people that I really don't know care so deeply. It is amazing really. I don't know if I realize it to be the important moment that you think it was, but I will take your word for it.
As for the coat thing, maybe what you say would work, problem is that she is already going to buy one, but the one I will get her will be much nicer than what she would buy for herself. I know that is a little bit of the same old thinking but she really doesn't have a nice coat and I know she would like one. What better time than now to get it? If nothing else, it will be a slightly larger than necessary gift card because as she knows with anything I get for her, she can always return it.
I need to decide what to do before lunch tomorrow. These are my options so far:
1) I can go to the mall and just start looking, hoping to find something decent. 2) Jewelry. Problem with this is that she has always wanted a new ring from me and other than that, she really has a ton of jewelry. I don't think a new ring would be a good idea considering she doesn't wear the one she has anymore for obvious (and some maybe not so obvious, who knows) reasons. 3) The coat. Practical, but maybe if done right, a thoughtful gesture. 4) Some gift cards to stores she likes. This may be the way to go because she always asks for GCs at holidays and rarely does anyone do it.
Of course, I am going to do a card and maybe a flower thing. I still don't have a clue what direction to go with the card. If you remember, my original idea was to just write "unconditional" in a relatively generic card and let it be. Now, I'm not too sure. Should I write more? Any "thesis" by be would be poorly received so it can't be too long. I don't know. My gut says to keep it simple and let her say whatever she needs to say in whatever she does. Any last minute advice, all things considered?
And not a creature was stirring, not even a mouse. The new Razr phone I bought her has now left the house, waiting in her car for a call from the louse...
The more things change, the more they stay the same. Well at least now she'll be able to take a picture of him and attach it to his entry in the address book. Oh, what a snooping tease that will be...
So close, so close...and yet so faraway. I'm just gonna be brutally honest here...take it or leave it...my hands are thrown up in the air!!
I know that is a little bit of the same thinking...
No my friend, you are wrong it's not a little of the same thinking GH, it's ALOT of the same thinking.
but the one I will get her will be much nicer than what she would buy for herself.
Why? Because it's a gift from you? Because you would be spending more money on a coat vs what she would spend? Because you know her tastes, wants, desires better than she does? Is it a contest or power struggle? She needs ONE coat GH, not two coats. Certainly not one that will sit around collecting dust, now that would be a waste of money, wouldn't it?
I'm going to start sharing my stories with you...for no other reason than sometimes you get it and even if you don't get it, well hey then I can work through my WAW issues. K? Therapy for us both.
Here is something interesting I would like to share with you. I have these two friends, married a couple of years, been together 6yrs. They were at the company holiday party and all the married couples played the Newleywed Game. You would think that this would be an easy game for married couples to play. We all think we KNOW our Ss, right...well let's just say my GF was floored that she and her H were the ONLY ones out of all the married couples that got the right answers...some of these folks had been married over 20yrs mind you...the final question was where did you have your first kiss...the H answered it perfectly and to the T. He knew the restaurant pkg lot where it had happened. Everyone was floored! Why because these two friends of mine met at the company, they were coworkers, who had an A, and got married. They knew everything about each other in/out and they still do. Yet amazingly enough the couples that had been married for years barely knew their Ss. Tells you something eh?
What do you really know about your W and her needs, desires...it's not just you, GH, I see it over and over again on the board from many of the male posters here. They think they know, they think they have the answers of what they want, but do they really? You indicated on several occasions in our posts back and forth that your W has mentioned not wanting to go out because of getting a babysitter...have you ever thought of perhaps throwing all caution to the wind, saving up and getting a babysitter and surprising her with dinner and a night on the town like you used to? Remember when you romanced/courted her before you got M and life got in the way. She may very well be accepting of life's circumstances but her being in an A means that her emotional needs are no longer being filled by you....someone else is doing that, taking her back to the place where you once were with her. Make sense?
I've got stories galore of things I could share with you...all things I did/said before I gave up and walked away from my exH. He's the first one now to admit that he screwed up. All the jewelry he bought and then SWEAR TO GOD he would quickly take me over to his parents house to parade me around in front of his family, "look how well we are doing." He never got me, I'm not that hard to figure out and I doubt that your W is either. I DID learn something by taking that test yesterday and reflecting on my answers...it's not that I don't like gifts, but it's because of the meaning that I learned BEHIND the gift giving...so now I am totally self-sufficient, if I want something, I just go buy it. It's a lot easier than hinting, asking, or hoping that someone will "get it".
And back to your backslide last night...think about this, why did you need to do the dig that you did to her? Why couldn't you just let good enough alone? Did you have to have the last say, control? Were you trying to start something? Was it that you just couldn't perhaps accept being the hero to her for coming through like a knight?
Lisa. So much to think about. I will try to answer what you brought up.
No my friend, you are wrong it's not a little of the same thinking GH, it's ALOT of the same thinking
Ok. I can accept that.
Why? Because it's a gift from you? Because you would be spending more money on a coat vs what she would spend? Because you know her tastes, wants, desires better than she does? Is it a contest or power struggle? She needs ONE coat GH, not two coats. Certainly not one that will sit around collecting dust, now that would be a waste of money, wouldn't it?
No, not because it's from me, because I do know her tastes. Really, it's because now I have a holiday to shop for in an afternoon and little time at that and need something to get her. It's too late to get a sitter, especially since I don't know one so I am left buying something. I totally hear you and understand that I really have very little idea of what my W desires or needs. I don't know if I ever have. So now what? One thing I do know is if she is considering this to be a "normal' V-day, then it's pretty much on the level of a birthday in terms of gifts and I have nothing. I think she may understand but...
So, hows about this: I get a Macy's Credit card (which we would pay off immediately this week) and a card inviting her to dinner and shopping for a coat afterward. The kids will have to come but that's ok. I will also get her a little something... Does that sound better?
And back to your backslide last night...think about this, why did you need to do the dig that you did to her? Why couldn't you just let good enough alone? Did you have to have the last say, control? Were you trying to start something? Was it that you just couldn't perhaps accept being the hero to her for coming through like a knight?
I think I was actually upset because this wonderful new thing I just "bought" her would be the primary instrument she would use to contact the OM and I felt a childish need to let her know I knew that. It was stupid and I regret it. It is one of the worst of my bad behaviors and I really hate that I reverted back to it. I also think there is some part of me that sabotages things. I was NOT trying to start something. Maybe I am just getting really frustrated with the cat and mouse game of wondering what's going on with her and the OM. Since I am resigned to not asking, I let some pent up sarcasm slip. Gotta do better because if there is anything she hates more than my sarcasm, I don't know what it is.
Thank you again. Please, share any more stories you want. My thread's all yours!
Ok, I need some opinions. You all know what's going on right now in my sitch. My W is much warmer with me. Things are getting much more "normal" with the main difference being my changes. My W is giving indications that the OM is fading or gone. She has not gone out with him in a week.
I want to ask her what's going on but I'm not. Do you think that's wise. I am thinking to just let things flow and see where we end up. It seems like we will need to talk about this, but maybe now is too soon. Sound about right?
For my part, I know how you feel. I'd want to ask about it and bring it up myself, but, IMHO, I think its important for you to let it go for the time being...as NYS says, its the actions that speak the most. Even if you ask, she may or may not confirm what you ask, and even if she does, she may be telling you one thing...etc. So, to keep it short, I'd just let her actions speak for themselves and see where it goes from there. If things continue to improve, then there will come a time when talking about it will be right.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
and I really hate that I reverted back to it. I also think there is some part of me that sabotages things... Maybe I am just getting really frustrated with the cat and mouse game of wondering what's going on with her and the OM. Since I am resigned to not asking, I let some pent up sarcasm slip. Gotta do better because if there is anything she hates more than my sarcasm, I don't know what it is.
That's funny I had the same thought: asking myself why you were sabotaging the positivity, and/or why you slipped back into old behaviors.
Well, the latter question is probably easier to answer. Things go well, you feel your guard down and more comfortable, and voilá, you expressed your frustration, you just needed to vent it to her, good or bad. Sarcasm is one of the most effective ways to kill a relationship in time. Your wife's answer indicates that her time with you has not yet convinced her that things will not revert to what they were, or that you're yet capable of keeping up good behavior, so maybe there's some stuff going on we're not reading about in your posts.
In the meantime, learn a better way to handle frustration. Cultivate more patience. You're a photographer, we cultivate patience as photographers dealing with waiting for the moment in action photography, dealing with brides who run late, groups of people we have to organize into shots, little kids we have to cajole... all without letting it get to us but keeping a smile on our faces, right? Apply that skill of patience here too. And when you're tempted to say something sarcastic, stop your mouth and use your brain and consider how what you wish to say can hurt. You wouldn't say something like that to your clients, why say it to the person you claim to love the most? Reflect on why you feel that way, and diffuse the negative thoughts with reason.
My W is giving indications that the OM is fading or gone. She has not gone out with him in a week.
I don't know what she's doing, but I would not rule out that she's totally stopped seeing the OM. I get indications from your posts that she may still be seeing him. You may not be picking up on it, but I am, FWIW. Anyway, it also seems that you've got her somewhat stopped in her tracks for the moment as she checks you out. That suggests that she's making comparisons between you and the OM, so it really, really behooves you to become the better option right now.
I want to ask her what's going on but I'm not. Do you think that's wise.
Probably not, because worst case, she could just lie, right? So what's the point of asking? Just pretend he doesn't exist and work on you and your relationship. If he is or isn't in the picture, that will come out in the wash sooner or later. If he is in the picture, there's not telling if he will or won't be next month or not, so keep your focus on the big picture and not the daily rushes.
Okay...now we have something we can work with. So let's roll up our sleeves and get to work here.
I know W does not work during the day and you are a photographer. I happen to know one also and I know there is not a set work schedule. So let's think about this...the kids are in school during the day. W goes to the gym generally for a few hours a day. Do you think you would feel comfortable asking her for a day date for Vday. Invite her to a Vlunch (easier to get reservations btw) and then shopping for the coat afterwards. This way it's the two of you and no kids, got it...a little time for just the two of you which you haven't had in quite some time. Find a nice italian restaurant somewhere (Italian food is a bit more romantic dining than say steak or Mexican).
If she doesn't feel comfortable with this, then accept it and go for the option of the kids joining too for dinner. Remember you are testing the waters here. K?
I think when it comes to women it boils down to those that are materialistic and those that are not. Going out on a limb and say that W is in the later group with me. We're quite easy to please, not too hard to figure out in the slightest. While life does change us a bit through the years, we still do have our passions, interests and desires. Your W may have gotten a bit lost in the way, but I am sure there are still somethings that you can recall about her. I'll share some stuff about me, I have a weakness/passion for a few things, polarfleece, horses, penguins, and California. It's a safe bet that someone wanted to get to my heart they would indulge me with something from my short list. So my friend, write a list about what your Ws passions are, what you think they are?
Regarding bringing up the om, let it go...let it go!! Have you forgotten the whole it's not about the op, it's about me and my WAS? Come on now...just let it go!!
Okay, story time...my greatest hurrah was my goodbye gift to my exH. For his 40th bday, I planned a trip for us to go to Cali. What he didn't know was what I had planned for him once we got to LA. When we were in LA back in the 80s, he was in a band, a vocalist. We hung with the Alist bands back then. The band broke up over a record deal that went really really sour. Anyone who's ever been in a band can tell you that a band break up is like going through a D. So for 10yrs these guys didn't talk to one another. For years they had lived and breathed one another. I knew my exH lived with a great deal of pain over it, never recovered. Anyway, for months, and I mean months, I ass kissed every band member, all of our old friends. I worked my ass off trying to make ammends between everyone. So we went and when we got to LA on our second day there I suggested going to our old lunch hangout down by where we had lived. We sat outside on the patio and one by one, our friends, old band members suddently started showing up. If I could only share with you the expression on his face, the tears in his eyes as well as everyone else's. I sat back for a week and let him revel in his glory. I was in great pain personally at this time as I had just lost my horse, but kept it inside because of how important I knew this meant to him. It's just an example of showing your love, taking the time and learning what really matters to people. I had helped him heal old wounds. And to this day, he's never forgotten his 40th bday. They are all still in touch.
I know that much of what you said was in direct reply to GH's post, but I want to thank you for your perspective on a few things that I can definitely apply in my sitch. Sorry GH for the mini-hijack!
Quote: Anyway, it also seems that you've got her somewhat stopped in her tracks for the moment as she checks you out. That suggests that she's making comparisons between you and the OM, so it really, really behooves you to become the better option right now.
This is definitely applicable in my sitch. My W has indicated that she is looking to work on us (again, just words), but it at least indicates to me that she is making the comparisons. It certainly is in my best interests at this point to show that I can be the better option. I must remember to keep that focus!!
Quote: Sarcasm is one of the most effective ways to kill a relationship in time.
SIGH so true. I must do a better job at filtering my comments, although in a moment of self-reflection, I think I have improved...just have some more work....
Quote: So what's the point of asking? Just pretend he doesn't exist and work on you and your relationship. If he is or isn't in the picture, that will come out in the wash sooner or later. If he is in the picture, there's not telling if he will or won't be next month or not, so keep your focus on the big picture and not the daily rushes.
Absolutely! I know this will be a challenge for me in the weeks ahead, given that my W has said to me that she is "ending" things with him, but the point is, I really don't know if she will or not....and her telling me that she had will not convince me in one way or the other. The only true way that I will be able to tell is from her actions.
Very wise advice that you provided for GH and, in a roundabout way, to me. Thanks.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
