I did not do this stuff to get attention from my H. I did it because I was off my face and didn’t know what I was doing. It was not a premeditated thing in any way. On the rare occasions when I have been that drunk in the past I usually end up doing something sexual. Other people get violent or weepy or comatose – whatever. Who knows maybe C initiated – I really have no idea – and in my alcoholic haze I responded.
I know he was upset, I understood that he was upset and I was very apologetic and I didn’t try to make any excuses for my behaviour. My honest to God reaction when he told me/reminded me what I had done was the same as when you have dreamt you were F***king someone completely inappropriate and not even to your taste. Just *Oh my God – no way!*
I did not want him to slug C. In fact it was because of another altercation that he got involved in that he calmed down his need to slug C. And I was very relieved to hear that he had not done so. I just knew when he said that he had wanted to that I felt better and I was trying to examine why I felt better. Then I realised that his whole reaction had been off-base. That it had been about his humiliation not about WHAT I had done but about the fact that he felt humiliated by it and that while that is an entirely valid reaction it seemed to be his ONLY reaction. I felt cut dead by the fact that he said *if you want to do that don’t do it in front of me*. Like he couldn’t care less if I wanted to do that. It was that coupled with his current LD/non-desiring behaviour that had me feeling lost and abandoned.
Am I respectful, Am I honoring. Yes its that easy. Takes lots of practice though. Is your inner voice positive, hopeful, appreciative, admiring of H? Or the opposite. What do you think of his recent business success? What have you communicated (not said) to him about it?
Working very hard on this one. I have been validating him. Thanking him. Told him I appreciated him looking after me (by getting me into the cab back to the hotel). Also because I felt so completely ill the next day he had to do the driving even though he had driven up and he also was hungover. He drove beautifully, so smoothly so I wouldn’t puke. So later that afternoon I thanked him for that too and said *what would I do without you*. The problem is I have always been a stand on my own two feet type of person – just the way I was raised. And I think H needs to be needed. This doesn’t mean I should become needy – it means I should acknowledge him more when I has been able to do something for me and be appreciative.
Sunday went well between us. I was appreciative towards him for things he did. It is hard, there is a very fine line with him between him not really thinking he has been thanked at all (Thanks hon – doesn’t seem to penetrate) and *OK don’t lay it on so thick*. But I’m learning and at least I am no longer in the *why the hell should I bother* phase.
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
Blackfoot has some good advice in his reply. Read it carefully, and when doing so, also consider my comments about your husband’s business and money. Ask yourself, if you were in his shoes, besides changing his attitude and style of delivery, what else should he do to fulfill his role as husband and provider? Exactly what is he falling short on? It seems to me he is sticking by you, giving his best to move the family forward, and all he hears in return are your complaints. I understand you have very valid reasons to complain. But your perceptions of what is wrong come from four sources – 1) what you do, 2) what he does, 3) how you perceive things, 4) how he perceives things.
At the moment I can see fault with him only in what he does regarding his interaction with you, his delivery, anger, etc. I don’t mean to minimize this as I know it is a huge issue to you. But at this point he is not going to change any of this first. You must take the lead. In his mind he is doing his best. He is working hard to provide for the family. This is point 2.
You are getting some insight on his board as to how he perceives things. In spite of your apologies for your behavior at the party, I would not be so forgiving to you. I think all of us keep walls up to protect our selves and put forth the image we want. Every now and then a crack appears which lets others see inside ourselves. The alcohol cracked your façade and some of your true inner feelings came out. That is what really troubles your H, and your apologies may fall short in his mind. He knows you well enough to know whether he should heed what he saw through your crack or ignore it.
But this situation also created a crack in his walls. His display of jealousy speaks loads. If he is of a mind to dump you and move on, I would guess he would not have said a thing, would have stood back and watched you to see how far you would take things, just to confirm his suspicions and build his rationale for leaving. But he didn’t do that. What more confirmation of his feelings do you need? This is point 4.
Which brings me to point 3. Your actions were based on your insecurities and need to trigger affirmation from him. Even though you say you were not aware of what you were ding, I do not believe it and I don’t think you husband does either. In such an inebriated state with all inhibitions removed, what did this flirting, seductive behavior take dominance? Why didn’t you get up on a table and sing, or start telling jokes, or pick a fight, or anything else than become seductive? To me, a person’s actions in this type of situation speaks volumes. And I believe it is based on your perceptions of yourself and you marriage.
You confession of your fears is getting close to the truth. You are not there yet. There is still another layer to peel back. Find that layer of why you are afraid and then you can start to move forward. This will affect how you feel about yourself, helping to address point 3, which in turn will affect point 1.
The problem is I have always been a stand on my own two feet type of person – just the way I was raised.
This does not surprise me at all. I am married to someone like this. I believe this desire to be strong, independent, self-sufficient comes from FOO issues. If you are as my W, then I will guess that you are actually angry with your H for being needy, for wanting support and affirmation, because as a child you did not get enough of this and was angry at other kids who did. To cover the hurt, you convince yourself they are weak. You grew to despise them. Now, because of you conditioning, your react the same way to your H.
This is not to fault you. It is not your fault. But you are still projecting this anger while at the same time wanting that compassion and support to be given to you. Can you see how this could drive your husband crazy? I sure hope so because this same stuff from my W drives me crazy.
My advice to you is two fold. First, get to the bottom of your FOO, figure out what bothers you, accept it, find out how it infiltrates your attitudes and actions, and do you best to change. Then, go get some training to start a new career, find a job, anything to give yourself the sense of empowerment and self sufficiency you need. Then you will stop demanding that your H provide this for you and you can just provide it for yourself. This will let you drop your demands on him. It will stop him feeling that you are trying to control him (which you are) and he will gain more respect for you, which is also what you want.
I didnt think it was premeditated on your part. I am very aware of the different personalities that come out during drinking. Personally I believe that alcohol removes our environmental inhibitions. The inhibitions that WE personally have, our personal boundaries seem to stay in tact. Also The face that people present to the world is dropped. So you get to see their real or at least current emotional state revealed.
I wanst picking on any of that.
I just knew when he said that he had wanted to that I felt better and I was trying to examine why I felt better. Then I realised that his whole reaction had been off-base. That it had been about his humiliation not about WHAT I had done but about the fact that he felt humiliated by it and that while that is an entirely valid reaction it seemed to be his ONLY reaction. I felt cut dead by the fact that he said *if you want to do that don’t do it in front of me*. Like he couldn’t care less if I wanted to do that. It was that coupled with his current LD/non-desiring behaviour that had me feeling lost and abandoned.
<big exhalation> This is sooo close to being the straw that broke my x's back. I hope the guys are paying attention. Its so critical --the difference in how we (men/women) communicate, when we say 'logical' 'true' 'correct' statements and in actuality because of the way the comments make you 'feel' it is WRONG!!! (of course chrissy this is something your ultra truthful super controlled self will disagree with me on too. Your an exception. SHH. <snicker> )
And so I will begin my logicalling of your feeling on this. Not to change your feeling, but just so that if there are guys as dense as I am they can see it may be true, and correct as to what we have been taught, but its the WRONG thing to do.
it had been about his humiliation not about WHAT I had done
Um yes. You completely disrespected him. You better believe he was humiliated. It was in fact WHAT you did that humiliated him.
it seemed to be his ONLY reaction. Its not his job to enforce your boundaries. In his mind. Yes I know now that it would have made you feel better, important, special, I dont know exactly.... but something along the lines of cherished and protected. Well I guarantee that if anyone were to impose on you, hurt, violate, etc on you he would PROTECT. But when you are willingly engaged, Then WHAT is there for him to cherish or protect. regardless of you being in the black hole,(because this is something Cobra and I are going to have to part paths on. I know the black hole, and its part of my self testing as to my personal boundaries, before I got married. )Would he like to beat down C? probably. But thats not logical, because we are not cavemen. We are socially correct, enviromentally trained, Modern men, who knows that a woman is just as responsible for her actions as a man. So if he is gonna beat down C, then that means he should be angry with you too. But hes not. Not that kind at least. Hes hurt. He wants to drag you back to his cave, but he has been trained that isnt respectful, and petty/jealous to boot.
I felt cut dead by the fact that he said *if you want to do that don’t do it in front of me*.
Urgh. flashbacks. thought control. ...... ahhh. I hate you right now. j/k ok ...... Love is a choice, and since his A, probably one he is well aware of. So he has no control over your love. In his opinion. He thinks he cant dictate to you what YOU do, but he can enforce HIS boundary which is 'not in front of me'. What he does now is dependant on his personality . He could let it go. He could start observing you more and withdrawing. or he may try to beat you to the punch of you leaving him and getting 'revenge' by acting out in a similar fashion. At least he got angry about something.
I never get angry. I never showed 'negative' emotions. made my x feel unloved. <--- not anymore.
side bar. why did your H have an A the first time?
Like he couldn’t care less if I wanted to do that. It was that coupled with his current LD/non-desiring behaviour that had me feeling lost and abandoned
Urgh. ack, %$^%^$#$@!@$#&. mind melt.
ok ...
The 10% thats is important ---------->
thats your feeling. He made a logical comment. He did not say he could care less. YOU interpreted it that way.
Haps/womens filters What did he mean by that? Why did he say that?
It was funny to most around this forum when I first came to this board and was throwing out my cleverly worded comments, that got the ladies all in a lather, getting lots of this reaction. Just so I could point it out and deconstruct it.
Its not so funny anymore. when its IRL and the other person is your SO and the insecurities are colliding.
I said when I first posted my sitch that I did and said something that, to quote you, instead of me "cut her dead." This is a example of the thing I said Different preceeding circumstances.
On top of the already tenuous EC because of my blocking her out for the reasons I posted previously. What I said was correct. It was true. It made her feel untrusted, uncherished, and unprotected.
I wasnt there to translate though. So OM helped her translate.
Guys, she IS going to translate what you say. So when you say something make her 'feel'. Make her feel protected, special, possesesd. Yes I said that word. Im even really going to go out there and say. Enforce her boundaries for her. Yep she might act pissed, b!tch, moan, etc. Its a test. are you a man or her girlfriend? IF she is fighting with you thats good. IF You ignore her some OM wont. and thats exactly what making a logical comment to a woman will make her feel. ignored.
Cobra and BF, thanks a bunch for taking time with me and trying to twist my head around into man-think. It's kind of a weird and wacky world and I have taken this long to reply because I am taking a while to get into what you guys are trying to say.
Cobra said : Exactly what is he falling short on? It seems to me he is sticking by you, giving his best to move the family forward, and all he hears in return are your complaints. I understand you have very valid reasons to complain. But your perceptions of what is wrong come from four sources – 1) what you do, 2) what he does, 3) how you perceive things, 4) how he perceives things.
Cobra he does not hear nothing but complaints from me, I save my complaining (or most of it) for here. I know enough abut DBing to know that complaining won't get me anywhere. If anything he is the one that does nothing but complain. I have got plenty I could complain about but I don't. Friends tell me that I put up with a LOT and I am not even complaining to them, just talking about what I'm busy with or whatever and they point out that this is stuff they leave to their H's.
Maybe he does hear complaints but I would submit that it might be something to do with his hearing rather than my speaking.
What is he falling short on? Pretty much everything except the money part. You say he is sticking by me, Cobra how can you say that when you know HE is the one who had the affair? Who is sticking by whom here? When I say everything I mean, interaction with the family, interaction with me, sex, acting like he could care less I exist, paying any interest in what I am doing, helping round the house, taking care of the car, being involved at mealtimes, coming on family visits.
In spite of your apologies for your behavior at the party, I would not be so forgiving to you. I think he had no choice, you are the HD partner Cobra, my H is not. My H has not initiated sex with me for a long time. I have been forgiving of him having a full-on A and walking out on me and you are saying he should not be so forgiving of me acting a bit amorous at a wild drunken party where a lot of people were doing silly things.
BF said in a LTR cherishing protecting is required and I agree with that, I do not feel cherished or protected by my H. He pretty much left me to my devices at the party, he did not hang out with me or have is arm around me. These behaviours from him are not the behaviours of a loving H who cherishes his woman and wants to protect her from advances by other males. Everything we do is very instinctual, we are but apes underneath, and male apes understand when there is no other male around to protect a female so they take their chances. My own defences were down because I was drunk.
Then, go get some training to start a new career, find a job, anything to give yourself the sense of empowerment and self sufficiency you need. Then you will stop demanding that your H provide this for you and you can just provide it for yourself. Cobra I have a job, I just started my job in October and it is a good job where I can really pick up my career again. I am getting more empowerment and self-sufficiency, I think that is exactly the problem as my H sees it, he can see me slipping away from him. I have a life, friends, hobbies I enjoy, a job, and now it looks like OM are interested in me.
I kind of worry that H is something of a quitter that if he feels he is losing he will not fight. When he walked out 3 years ago and had an A I fought to get him back, I did not give up easily. Now I feel he can't really be bothered to do the same for me. I am not close to walking out but I am sick of being the one carrying this load and he knows I am, we have talked about it, we have talked about the fact that the R is in trouble we have talked about ways to make it better. We have mostly talked (i.e. he has yelled and screamed at me) about things I can do to make it better. He does not seem willing to shoulder any responsibility to make it better.
BF: Guys, she IS going to translate what you say. So when you say something make her 'feel'. Make her feel protected, special, possesesd. Yes I said that word. Im even really going to go out there and say. Enforce her boundaries for her. Yep she might act pissed, b!tch, moan, etc. Its a test. are you a man or her girlfriend? IF she is fighting with you thats good. IF You ignore her some OM wont. and thats exactly what making a logical comment to a woman will make her feel. ignored. This is so true but it is not a one way street y'know. Guys do not have the monopoly on logic, I can logic with the best of them and when I do that to my H he gets all upset and starts talking about feelings. Please BF if you have any insights into how I can make my H FEEL like he da man then please let me know. I know logic doesn't get through to him. LOL
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
I must apologize because I think I have misunderstood you situation. From what you are saying now, it sounds more like your H is/was in a mid life crisis scenario. If I understand this correctly, then he is detached, angry, depressed, blames you for everything, has his ups and downs in direct relation to whether you give him what he wants or not. You might look on the MLC board, and I’ve posted some there but I found the bulk of the opinions to be more spouse bashing and venting than anything else. Lots of anger.
Not that long ago I felt like I was in the same situation. Relations were bad, no sex, little communication, lots of anger and resentment, defense shields at maximum strength, phasers set to stun. There’s no shortage of books on MLC, describing it as a true sickness. I think that’s a bunch of BS. I can tell you that I felt depressed, beaten down, out of hope, estranged from the family (even though I was home everyday and doing things with the kids).
I see now that this feeling was due to many things. Some that I can think of are: · Projection of anger toward my mother onto my wife (who did a lot to enflame that anger) · A sense of self pity, a longing for sympathy and understanding, feeling my W did not hear me, nor want to hear me · Acting out in a passive aggressive way and not empowering myself · Responding to a shift in the relationship, trying to regain balance, reduce my feelings of anxiety and fear of abandonment · An unwillingness in my wife to help alleviate my fears, which actually empowered her · All this resulted in great frustration on my part, and manifest in anger.
From this list, you can see that my advice to listen to your husband, give him acknowledgement and a sense of control can help to get the two of you out of this stuck situation. It will not cure the problems, since those go much deeper. But superficially, I think this can help.
I still disagree with your actions at the party. You have good reason for doing so, at least from your point of view. But it sounds like a lot of justification to act out of anger and vengeance. His affair was wrong, but it does not entitle you to flirt in front of him at a party. You did this to get even. You know that will get you no where.
You and Blackfoot say he should protect and defend you against other men at the party. That is true, and if her were posting on this board, I think many would tell him just that. But he is not. Also, you are an adult and responsible for your actions. Just because he does not defend you as you would like, does not mean you were right.
I’m glad you’ve got a job. But don’t use it to get affection from other men just to feel better about yourself or make your husband jealous. That will backfire. You two are walking too close to divorce to be playing these games. Do you want the marriage to recover or do you want to get even?
If you think of your husband as a quitter, I’m sure he will sense that from you too. If you feel this way about him, why did you fight to get him back? Do you feel you deserve to be with a quitter? Do you think this about yourself? Your need for affirmation from men is saying something about your sense of self esteem. You depend too much on your husband and others to confirm your sense of self. Either that, or your comment about him being a quitter is just made out of anger.
Quote: I see now that this feeling was due to many things. Some that I can think of are: · Projection of anger toward my mother onto my wife (who did a lot to enflame that anger) · A sense of self pity, a longing for sympathy and understanding, feeling my W did not hear me, nor want to hear me · Acting out in a passive aggressive way and not empowering myself · Responding to a shift in the relationship, trying to regain balance, reduce my feelings of anxiety and fear of abandonment · An unwillingness in my wife to help alleviate my fears, which actually empowered her · All this resulted in great frustration on my part, and manifest in anger.
Cobra, I don't think you've told us how you got out of this mental place. I'd sure like to hear some details on your thread. If you posted about this while I was away from the board, maybe you could just hit me with a few highlights. Thanks.
Just a quick reply before we’re off for spring break…. I think my situation is a little different from Fran’s, or most others posting here and in the MLC forum. I was the one feeling like an MLC was coming on. Everyone else here is the spouse of an MLCer. My feelings grew more intense after we were already in counseling and things seemed to go from bad to worse. But we stayed in counseling, which did help me understand the many issues at play with the both of us. Deep down I think all MLCers know their anger is projected, and the spouse does not deserve to bear the full brunt of that (though they may still deserve a lot of it).
It was the confrontation with an intractable situation that forced me listen to that voice and take a look at myself. That was not too long before I started researching the web and watching this site. At the time I was locked in a pretty strong power struggle with W (which still comes and goes) over everything under the sun. I knew something had to change or divorce was certain. The closer you get to divorce, the less of a fantasy it becomes, the less you think about freedom, the ability to meet someone new, to be happy, and the more you start to focus on the grim reality of splitting – giving up the house, losing most of your assets, not seeing your kids as much, feeling lonely and extremely angry this had to happen. I know my wife began to realize many of these things too.
I believe the progression of our fighting had the effect of rattling both our cages. But I also knew it was important to do this, to at least rattle her cage because I always felt she was in denial of life after divorce. I thought she looked at divorce as entering Shangri La, since she always seemed to have a “death wish” for divorce.
I think that fear is what prompted me to start looking inward more. But it was damn hard to do so because it meant giving in to my enemy. I went about it by discussing other people’s issues rather than my own. I could see so many things going on there seemed so clear to me, at least from the male POV. I knew that my arguing those points would pull me into looking at myself, and in some ways, I wouldn’t be responsible for turning the microscope on myself. It is all about ego. And as Blackfoot once stated, this type of discussion slowly becomes absorbed into your thinking, since you are preaching the change you need to do yourself (I think we are all doing this). I thought this was the least painful approach for me.
There is also an element of one-upmanship involved here. I determined to become the healthier spouse and not have to listen to her lectures about how dysfunctional I or my family was. Before, I could not argue back much because I was ignorant of the field. This was her area of study, not mine. (I now see how much one-sided BS she was throwing around.) We have a long way to go to get healthy and move into a comfortable, close relationship again. But I hope the competition of “who can be healthier” will move us in the right direction, rather than the wrong one, at least until the competition is no longer needed.
All this seems contrary to what I am currently telling Blackfoot, since I was getting on him about ego and humility. But I am not telling him to do so in front of his ex or to bow down to her. He will find the perfect male version of relinquishing his ego without sacrificing his pride and keeping the upper hand in the relationship. I am waiting to hear how he goes about this.
So in short, my process helped me to empower myself, pull out of my funk and feel good about myself because I was doing something to save the family. For someone in that condition, this sense of purpose and self worth is invaluable. W also wanted to avoid divorce, so she reacted positively and addressed some of my complaints which further helped to make me happy.
And before anyone chimes in about needing to establish a “differentiated sense of self” instead of a “reflected sense of self,” well, that is the next task. (I am also very surprised there is not more discussion of this and Schnarch’s other thoughts on this board. Why is that?)
Thanks, cobra. You are so right about confronting the reality of splitting. It's one thing to fantasize about wiggling your nose and being instantly transported to your idyllic future, but what you have to go through... and then chances are, you'll take all your attitudes and expectations with you and attract the same partner under another name (I seem to do that over and over). Not to mention the financial trauma and the child trauma. It's a big step and things have to be pretty bad to go there.
Things are going much better between H and I at the moment.
We had a long talk about everything. The talk managed to stay at the talk level rather than the screaming row level. Reason for this: there was another person in the room! I could call her the cardboard counsellor – LOL. (For anyone who knows about software development there is such a thing as a cardboard programmer, that is when you explain your problem to another programmer standing there and you get insight into what is wrong without them saying a word). Just in case you are wondering why we had someone else in the room at the time, it is because she is our new au pair(N), she was watching TV while we were eating dinner, as her English isn’t that good and she was concentrating on the TV we felt OK about discussing personal stuff but it did mean we kept our voices down and didn’t let ourselves lose control at all.
Certainly a cheaper way of doing it than going to a C!
Anyway, H has forgiven me for being drunk and silly, and I managed to get in a line about being “a highly sexed exhibitionist” which he smiled wryly about. And said well I am not an exhibitionist… (leaving out the not highly-sexed ;-))
We had a long talk about how my efforts to make things work had been blown off course my my mum’s illness and death. In the end I think he understood that a) I am loving and benign towards him and my intentions are always good even if I miss the mark sometimes b) I need positive feedback for doing things right (just as much as he does) c) He needs to forgive me for whatever he is still holding grudges about and start with a clean sheet. Bits of the conversation that I still feel a little uncomfortable about are: He is re-writing history a little with regard to his A. He gave me an insight into something I said to him (ages ago) which was a weird spin on things, which basically deflected any blame or need to change from him. As N was in the room I did not pick him up on it because it would have been a bit of an A-bomb.
I have been reading Stop Walking on Eggshells, very good insight into people with borderline personality (definitely strong traits of this in H), at first it made me sad and kind of undid the good work of our long talk, but as I worked through it in my mind I realised that that is just him and that I can live with it, that the book will help me do that more. One of the things that BPs do is alternate between being very needy to pushing you away, and this is exactly what H does. If I can learn not to take the pushing away part too personally and actually learn to expect it and be OK about it then I think I can manage not to push back. It is cyclical. When BPs let you get close they get scared of “engulfment” and withdraw (or push away). This has made me suspicious of the good times because I feel they are false, I feel that it will all fall apart again and he is just being nice out of self-interest and doesn’t really care about me. I now see that he does care, but he just needs to maintain this cyclical state in order to retain some sort of balance in his own mind. When he withdraws or gets nasty next time I will know to expect it and not feel like throwing in the towel thinking that everything has gone down the pan again, just that he is going through that phase and he will come back out of it.
Excellent score on the ML this week up to 3 times so far! Also plenty of communication around this. He is opening up loads more about what HE likes (taking a leaf out of GEL’s book here).
take care all
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
Hi, Been doing bits of posting on others threads and not much on my own. My own sitch is pretty quiet at the moment and fairly positive. Since I last posted here we have been maintaining a comfort zone in our interactions with each other and also ML at least once a week.
OK so why am I here? Because although this is OK it is not great, there is not much communication between us, H spends most evenings when he is at home just playing computer games and he rarely eats with us. In the past when we have been in the comfort zone I have just let things lie as it is better than the war zone. But I am feeling now that it is time I stepped things up a little and tried to move us out of the comfort zone into something more connected. How can I do this without seeming needy? "hey H come and hang out with me instead of playing dumb computer games all night". Also the more he just hangs out in his cave like this the more I feel the need for intimacy withering in me. He never initiates but I do need more to go on if I am going to initiate, either I do it because the R is going bad and I feel I need to fix things quick, or better I do it because I feel connected.
Family visits over the Easter weekend served to highlight our differences and make me wonder as I sometimes do what on earth possessed me to marry H in the first place. Really just comparing our two families, seeing what different tribes we come from - LOL. I would characterise his family as stiff and boring, focused on duty and over-enmeshed. He would see them as organised, sincere, hard-working and caring. He would probably characterise my family as brash, inconsiderate, laissez-faire and self-involved. I see them as confident, funny, flexible and self-reliant.
His need to make me more like one of his own makes me feel like I'm in prison. At the moment it is a fairly cushy jail with only two to a cell, decent meals and a TV. At times it can feel like a dank dungeon with an over-flowing piss-pot in the corner and a crazed loon for a cell-mate.
No doubt he feels my need to make him more like one of mine. Any insights on how this might make him feel? Any ideas from the veterans on how to raise our game and build a stronger EC starting from the good position we are now in. I've got a feeling it might involve making things painful again for a while and this is why I have not done what's needed in the past, but I feel stronger in my own mind and ready for the challenge.
It's 200 miles to Chicago, we've got a half a tank of gas, it's dark and we're wearing sunglasses. Hit it! - VROOOM! (Blues Brothers)
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
Your an exception. SHH. <snicker> )
<--- not anymore. 
