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Haphazard,

Ok...you've found a boundary. You need to calmly communicate this to him when he's not been drinking...because IMPO (having lived with someone who drank too much) telling him something like that at a time when he's already been drinking, will not work. It's likely to escalate your situation and leave you ended up frustrated.

To add weight to your boundary you need to communicate to him that you are not willing to participate in arguments with him where #1 he's been drinking, #2 it's not about you, and #3 where voices are raised. YOU, have to really concentrate too when the next argument happens....not to raise your voice, and repeat your boundaries to him....then just walk away.

My point here...is don't wait for an argument to let him know this is a boundary, tell him it is now.

Also...what are the consequences. Walking away from him isn't much of a consequence for him.

GEL

Hi Chrome,

So your boundary is:
(1) You will not be shouted at over minor issues when the real issue is being left undiscussed.
It is not so much that the real is is left undiscussed it is that the real issue is about someone or something else that he couldn't or wouldn't pick a fight with so he picks a fight with me to discharge his angry feelings.

Sounds good to me. I would probably expand it to say: I refuse to engage in a conversation in which you are shouting at me (unless I am very far away and I can't hear you ). Sorry to say it was me that started to should (apparently) because I felt angry at the way he was treating me - i.e. picking on me for minor things (like not buying bread) when I knew full well he was irritable because his day had gone badly, he had an empty stomach, and he was buzzed.


So, what are the consequences (as far as your actions) of the boundary being violated. Walking away or more serious results?
The consequence is that I refuse to be treated that way. I walk away so as not to be treated that way. If when I walk away he tries to pursue me to carry on the fight then I am going to walk further away - like out the door for the rest of the night. And I will not engage in any further conversation/discussion/insult-trading etc while I am walking out the door. The point is that he dumps his anger out on me because it is (for him) a "safe" way to discharge those feelings. He cannot yell at a client for example - so I get it

Fran

Hi GEL,

You are absolutely right, it will not work if I try to tackle it in the middle of such a situation.

Why do you think walking away is not much of a consequence for him? I want to shut down the behaviour by not rising to it and walking away seemed like the best way to not be available for him to dump his anger on.

Fran

Haphazard,

It's not a consequence for him...how will it affect him? I mean personally, I think for you....walking away and refusing to participate is great...and I think you should do that, don't get me wrong, I think that's a great approach. Let me see...if I can rephrase this...what does he have to lose? A firm consequence is...."If you continue to treat me this way...you will lose me, I will leave....or you will." In saying that I don't mean...just walking to the other room either.

Now, that may not be something you are prepared to do, but try to think of something that's going to rattle his cage a bit. My 1st impression when I read your boundary, was "that's a great starting place" but it's not likely to wake him up.

GEL

Hi Gel,

It's not a consequence for him...how will it affect him?

I think it will affect him because he no longer has his dumping ground, and because he will most likely pursue which is when I DO walk out the door - which would rattle him.

I think it is boundary #1

The next boundary I plan to work on is getting him to stop drinking. On that one the consequence will be that I do leave. I plan to give him a year to get sober. But I don't feel I can jump straight to that one without starting by drawing the first boundary and getting him to see that I can get serious with stuff.

If he thinks I don't really mean it on the stop drinking one then it won't work.

Fran

"It is not so much that the real is is left undiscussed it is that the real issue is about someone or something else that he couldn't or wouldn't pick a fight with so he picks a fight with me to discharge his angry feelings."

Gotcha. He is transferring his bad feelings from something else on to you. That is definitely something you need to set a firm boundary on. You should be willing to be a shoulder to cry on, so to speak, but not a whipping boy. I think most of us are guilty to some degree of taking things out on our SOs, but it doesn't make it right, and it shouldn't be tolerated.

"If when I walk away he tries to pursue me to carry on the fight then I am going to walk further away - like out the door for the rest of the night."

I think your response answers GEL's questions. You might also consider a cumulative response over several encounters. In other words, don't say I will walk to the other room first every time, then out the door for the night. Walk out of the room the first time he does it. If he does it again another night, START by walking out of the door for the night. Again, this is just something to consider, do what you feel is right for your situation.

This is a good start. For many years I did some things that my W internalized rather than let me know they bothered her. Some were perfectly innocent in my eyes, just a difference of personality styles (I am brash and aggressive, she is demur and passive). Some, I am ashamed to say, were not so innocent but were mind games of control. If she had called me out on it early I would have adjusted and we wouldn't be wading through 15 years of resentment now. The earlier you set the rules the better off everyone is. Just make sure you are controlled, calm, and firm when you discuss how the rules have changed. Doing it during an argument will have limited effect.

Hi Baltoman,

It's true that it is better to set boundaries earlier but sometimes you just can't see that they are boundaries and that you should be setting them. I bet your W didn't even realise you were playing mind games to control her which was why she didn't call you out. I have taken this stuff from my H for years without truly realising what was happening until the last couple of years. I just would try to defend myself, maybe point out where he wasn't so great either etc, rather than recognising his outburts for what they were and putting a stop to them.

My FOO always had point scoring fights where you would just pick on someone and they would pick on you back and whoever made the other one storm off and slam the door was the winner, which is why I have had trouble understanding that sometimes walking away from a fight is the best way to deal with it. Especially if this is laid down as a boundary beforehand rather than during, and if it is done in a totally calm manner.

Fran

Fran wrote on Corri’s thread:

Cobra,
Wow. I hear a lot of my past relationship in your comments. With me, W and I even took turns playing caveman.
I don't know how to play caveman, I never have I cannot hold the pose for long enough.

You may be right, that you should have pushed for divorce, since backing off has made you look weak, and he is capitalizing on that. However, he may be full of bluff too. If he wanted to get divorced, he would have by now (though I am assuming a lot into your situation with this comment). I wonder if his resentment levels have risen so high he can only focus on revenge. Divorcing you will not necessarily satisfy this need for vengeance.
This rings very true, I do often think he is trying to get revenge on me, that he holds many grudges. Lord knows what for. And what really sticks in my craw is that the bad habits that I managed to identify and root out a couple of years ago when I first started on this board seem to have gone totally unacknowledged.

I’ve felt the same way with my W. Read my past posts. Somewhere my W decided to give in and let me have what I’ve been complaining about. All of a sudden it became a non-issue. This was very difficult and scary for her since it meant having a lot of faith, that handing over this “power” wouldn’t come back to slit her own throat.

I am not sure what you mean here? I find it hard to work out what kind of power he wants. When I offer to let him choose or decide or take the lead he immediately backs away, leaving me to decide, he almost seems incapable of taking the reins. He has accused me of being controlling , I really am not, but I can make a decision and act on it if needs be. If I try to defer to him he won't let me.

But this is where some insight into what men want and need, however distasteful it may be for the woman to hear, can be of value. That is why Schlessinger hit a cord with me. If my wife could have given me what Schlessinger proposes, at the time in our relationship that was similar to what you currently describe, I think we could have avoided a LOT of major fights and damage to the kids. But she couldn’t hear me.

Hmm... I am struggling with this. In the beginning of our R I did many of the things which I believe do come naturally to most women when they love and care for someone, I cooked nice meals for him, nurtured him, took care of him etc. Little by little he chipped away at this by rejecting my efforts, throwing a sulk because a meal that I had lovingly prepared wasn't exactly to his taste (or wasn't exactly what he fancied that evening). Threw compliments back in my face by telling me I was wrong to think that (low self-esteem?). Solicitous questions as to his state of mind when he seemed upset would cause a further outbreak of sulking, or worse *I shouldn't have to tell you*. The whole sulky attitude was I'm afraid something I was completely blind-sided by. My FOO never sulked, my first long-term partner never sulked. I was 29 when I met H, I had never met another adult who behaved the way he did. I made the mistake of assuming it was something I could fix. Gradually I gave up nurturing him, he didn't seem to want it. I figured he was an adult and didn't want to be mothered - fair enough. Our M was happy enough, we got along and the sulks didn't happen that often. Then after 9 years our S was born, H within days began acting like a spoiled brat, like a kid faced with an unwelcome younger sibling. H began accusing me of not caring for him, throwing accusations of not doing the Schlessinger stuff at me, just at the moment - as an overwhelmed new mother - when doing that stuff would have seemed like climbing Mt Everest. I was SHOCKED by his behaviour. What I needed right then was another adult, someone who could deal with the situation, pull their weight, and not expect much from me for a couple of months. When our D was born two years later, I cut him some slack, I realised that he had been thrown off balance by the new dynamic as much as I had and that maybe I had been too wrapped up in the whole thing myself to understand that it was difficult and tiring for him too. In fact I cut him a lot of slack. But that didn't work either - he still pushed and pushed my buttons until we ended up having flaming tearful rows.

Silent, seething resentment on both sides continued for 18 months or so before he had the A. I went into shock - literally. I was hospitalized due to acute pain in my side and hyperventilation. I was given morphine. It was a muscular spasm, although it felt like a kidney stone. I found DR read it cover to cover, along with about 6 other R books, found this site. DB'd like crazy and got him to move back. Having read 5LL (he read that one too, the only R book he read) I figured his LL was AOS and WOA. So I bigged it up with the AOS, and compliments, also ML whenever he felt like it even when I didn't. We went through a honeymoon period with H calling me the love of his life. The thing is and the thing I struggle with was that he wasn't speaking my LL (quality time) even though he knew what it was and he was getting his needs met. I had to actively think all the time to meet those needs, it wasn't coming naturally to me, it was an effort. Exhausted after a hard day I would cook him a meal, even though I had eaten with the kids, (i.e. cooked, eaten, washed up). After he had gone to bed, I would sort laundry to ensure he had the right stuff in the morning. Laundry which if left in the basket he could easily fish out on his own without my help. Exhausted after his hard day, he would hide in the den and fiddle on the computer. To my mind I can't understand why an adult human being who comes in late (well past dinner time) can't fix themselves something to eat, why an adult human being can't think OK there's no clean stuff in the drawer, but here it is in the basket and just get on with it. But that's because AOS isn't my LL. Equally I can't understand why an intelligent adult who has read 5LL and purports to want to make a happy M can't make the effort to spend QT with his S.
This has become a very long vent! I should have put it on my own thread.

Fran

_____________________________

My reply to Fran begins here:

I am not sure what you mean here? I find it hard to work out what kind of power he wants. When I offer to let him choose or decide or take the lead he immediately backs away, leaving me to decide, he almost seems incapable of taking the reins. He has accused me of being controlling , I really am not, but I can make a decision and act on it if needs be. If I try to defer to him he won't let me.

I do not think it important to determine just what power he wants because I doubt he knows himself, even if you asked him to write it out! I think the problem here is two phase, 1) his perception of his lack of control differs from yours, and from reality (the filtered lens effect, most likely due to FOO issues), and 2) his original grievance against you may be lost in memory by now, but has morphed into some other excuse for lack of control.

I suspect the real problem lies in his FOO, but because he may not be aware of this, he has not identified that cause, and like so much with memory, if you don’t tag it for retention, it gets lost and forgotten. But the memory of the feelings remain. The anger gets transposed from one event to another, which may originally have had a logical reason for doing so. But over the years, people often forget how that trail fits together. All they know is they are still mad, have a long history of “justified” reasons to be mad, and if a new event is anywhere in the ballpark of what they remember history to be, then it is good enough to qualify as another reason to keep the anger going. So trying to understand why he is mad is pointless.

So one idea might be to acknowledge his complaints. Ask him to write it out, detailing what he doesn’t like and what he wants changed. Then just sit back and let him play with this new power. Of course you can’t let him become abusive, damaging, etc., but I don’t hear you saying that. What could very well happen is that after a while of flexing his muscles, he realizes that it gives him little to no satisfaction and the issue will just fade away. And with it will go his excuse to be angry. After all, you’ve got it in his own handwriting.

I’m sure he will then come up with another reason to be mad, so do the same with that one too. After a few rounds of this, then you need to step up and drop the hammer on him. Let him see in his own documented history how he has gained everything he complained about, so why is he still mad. This will make him confront his own hypocrisy, and he will have no basis to blame you for it. But I think you standing up to him must not be to fix him, but to let him know that he continues to overstep your boundaries, he is hurting you and all you are doing is to protect yourself. Make the focus on you, not him.

I think this is some narcissistic tendencies at work here. I don’t think this is necessarily a major concern, but you must know how best to deal with them.

Little by little he chipped away at this by rejecting my efforts, throwing a sulk because a meal that I had lovingly prepared wasn't exactly to his taste (or wasn't exactly what he fancied that evening). Threw compliments back in my face by telling me I was wrong to think that (low self-esteem?). Solicitous questions as to his state of mind when he seemed upset would cause a further outbreak of sulking, or worse *I shouldn't have to tell you*

My feeling is this is another offshoot of the same phenomenon I just spoke about. Rationale for anger morph over time. The sulking is a passive-aggressive thing, playing martyr but really wanting understanding, compassion and acceptance. For a man to sulk means that there could be something in his FOO that caused him to use this as his preferred way of expressing pain, possibly due to an over-controlling or over-intimidating parent?

I was 29 when I met H, I had never met another adult who behaved the way he did. I made the mistake of assuming it was something I could fix. Gradually I gave up nurturing him, he didn't seem to want it. I figured he was an adult and didn't want to be mothered - fair enough.

So you did not have the knowledge or experience to know how to address his needs (and why would or should you?) which made him feel even worse.

Then after 9 years our S was born, H within days began acting like a spoiled brat, like a kid faced with an unwelcome younger sibling. H began accusing me of not caring for him, throwing accusations of not doing the Schlessinger stuff at me…

This is why I made the comment he seems to have some narcissistic themes at work.

In fact I cut him a lot of slack. But that didn't work either - he still pushed and pushed my buttons until we ended up having flaming tearful rows.

And again here. Could the need for this type of continual affirmation be due to some feeling of abandonment as a child? It brings to my mind someone who was traumatized as a child and continually needs a touchstone to be sure he won’t be abandoned again, KWIM?

Silent, seething resentment on both sides continued for 18 months or so before he had the A.

In his mind, he was not being heard, he was expressing his pain the only way he knew how (not excusing him) and he reached his limit. To him, the pain of continuing in this “dead end” of trying to get sympathy, understanding and acceptance became greater than the pain of leaving his marriage. He took what he perceived to be the only way out.

So I bigged it up with the AOS, and compliments, also ML whenever he felt like it even when I didn't. We went through a honeymoon period with H calling me the love of his life.

Again, more in support of my narcissism suspicions…

Exhausted after a hard day I would cook him a meal, even though I had eaten with the kids, (i.e. cooked, eaten, washed up). After he had gone to bed, I would sort laundry to ensure he had the right stuff in the morning. Laundry which if left in the basket he could easily fish out on his own without my help. Exhausted after his hard day, he would hide in the den and fiddle on the computer. To my mind I can't understand why an adult human being who comes in late (well past dinner time) can't fix themselves something to eat, why an adult human being can't think OK there's no clean stuff in the drawer, but here it is in the basket and just get on with it.

Two thoughts here… He is focused on himself, as you can see throughout my comments (thinking the N word again). Also, you have completely dropped your boundaries. In his mind, I suspect he may be thinking, “Why should I help out if I don’t have to. As long as I stay mad (and I am entitled to be mad because I have this long list of grievances), she will take care of everything anyway. If she stops taking care of me, I just need to turn up the anger and intimidation levels a little more. That will bring her back into line. After all, I am entitled to this.”

The problem is how to break out of this, which is why I mentioned using the carrot and stick approach. But know first, that I think most of the problem at this point in your marriage is due to HIS issues, not yours. (Just know that if and when he gets healthier, your faults will start to take the limelight.)

I think my earlier comments about letting him feel some control is a good starting point. But keep him confined to boundaries. Don’t let him go hog wild with this. And when you object to something, be firm but logical, focused on you or the kids and not him.

Try to listen to him, acknowledge and mirror back to him what he says, so he knows you heard him. Tell him you can understand what he says and that it makes sense to you (whether it does or not). Try to engage him to the extent of asking him for direction, clarification, guidance, etc. Read up on narcissism, abandonment and loss issues (if you think this applies) and other FOO matters. Whenever you feel comfortable doing so, get him into counseling.

Later, you will need to strengthen your boundaries, since he is walking all over you right now. And while I think he is full of bluff and trying to feel empowered and in control by intimidating you as a way to quell his fears, I think he is not likely to leave the marriage. He knows no one else will put up with his crap. He has trapped himself into this mess and he subconsciously knows it, which is also part of his anger.

Hope I’ve said something of value.....

Cobra,

You are right. He is very N. I have read up on it and he fits the bill about 80%

I also think I fit it to some extent. In fact reading up on Narcissism I initially wanted him to read the same books and then thought better of it because he would just read into it what he wanted to see, i.e. pick out the stuff that looked more lack me

Mind you I have read that if you recogise your own Narcissistic traits then you are not N - whatever. After a while it started to make my head spin.

I think he is not likely to leave the marriage. He knows no one else will put up with his crap. He has trapped himself into this mess and he subconsciously knows it, which is also part of his anger.

Oh yes! And of course that is also Narcissistic as the N cannot blame themselves.

I quick word on your Feminism thread Cobra, which appears to have locked up.

I spent some time (several hours!) reading my way through it and chortling. Very funny indeed. Especially the part where you and NOPkins squared up to each other

I don't think feminism has turned women into entitlement monsters. What I think is that in the Good Old Days men and women had a certain set of expectations of each other. Those expectations were pretty clear and each side knew what they were supposed to do to meet them. In other words HUSBAND and WIFE were very clear job descriptions. What feminism did (and remember feminism is a movement that has been going on for at least 500 hundred years of recorded history - it has only been since the pill that it has been practical to adopt some of the agenda) - what feminism did was plonk a whole new set of expectations in both women and men's laps. However the old ones did not just disappear overnight. So now we're all entitlement monsters WOMAN wants man to treat her equally, respect her intellect, be a considerate lover, help with the housework AND be a provider and protector. MAN wants woman to earn some hard cash and be available for sex whenever he wants it AND be a nurturer and helpmeet. What makes all this even MORE confusing is that many of us had perfectly equitable "androgynous" fin-de-siecle relationships to begin with, then thanks - again - to the pill after several years, or whenever we felt like it children, came into the picture and suddently without warning we found ourselves back in the 50s

take care

Fran