Quote: Do you all see MC as a clear hindrance to DBing, or just a possible hindrance?
It depends on whether the WAS is going to appease you or because they really want to go, i.e. are committed to at least making a go at saving the marriage. It also depends on the therapist. If you have a good C and your H truly wants to be there, then I think it could help. Since I am new to the whole idea of therapy, maybe I am not the right one to answer this. I think my C has played a HUGE role in me getting to where I am so I am biased now in the opposite direction than I used to be...in favor of therapy.
I just wanted to check in and see how you are doing. As you may know, my H returned from his trip to visit his OW in Germany last week, and I saw him on Wednesday. I am going to post on my thread in a little while about how that went and how I am doing. But I did want to address some of your concerns around sharing with others a little bit. I have shared my situation with more people than others might. However, I work in a counseling environment so most of the folks in my world are well trained (either personally or professionally) to be supportive and non-judgemental. I discovered that framing my situation in terms of my feelings, my behaviors, my responsibility, and particularly what I am committed to, has helped my loved ones get behind us. In fact, in our wedding ceremony, there was a clause where the friends and family had to make a commitment to us as a couple, to help and support us if we ever got in trouble - and they had to shout out that they agreed to that. So everyone I have spoken to, I have spoken to in that context, and it has been really helpful. However, I have a close friend and one daughter who have too much fear to understand what is happening and to love without judgement, and I have backed off from further conversations with them right now as it is toxic for me. I honestly do not know what will happen for my relationships or my H's relationships with them later, but I have decided that can not be my concern right now, as my focus is on self-care and the restoration of my marriage.
I wanted to encourage you, regarding your H, to do your very best to be loving, kind and upbeat after he returns. All I can tell you, is that you never know what's going to happen. But just be your best self and stay the course no matter what he is like when he returns. I decided to think of my H's return as the beginning of a period of time when I have more access to him that the OW does. It is my opportunity to make my best impressions, uninterrupted for a period of time. I thought of him just like I did before, returning from a trip when I have missed being with him and seeing him. I was really surprised how well that worked. Don't get me wrong, I still have a fair share of anxiety and insecurity about whether my DBing will be successful, or how to get through another week, etc. So I got back into my Solutions Journal, looked at my goals, and my behaviors and then marked the baby steps I saw. I am constantly reminding myself that change is gradual if it is to be permanent. I am seeing the baby steps. So write yours out, and stick with them. It really helps me to stay focused and controls me (somewhat) from wanting too much too soon.
Looking forward to your next post. I'm in Calgary, Canada on a holiday right now, but will check in as I can while I am here, or for sure when I get back to the US on the 22nd. Keep taking care of yourself. Enjoy the time with your loved ones. Don't carry the whole weight of it all yourself. There are lots of people who care about you, and I for one have got your back.
PositivelyListening ************************************** When one door of happiness closes, another one opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us. - Helen Keller
Thanks PL for your support. It was good to hear about your scenario for homecoming as a model. I wish I could be hopeful that my H's return could be as good. I like your act as if advice - I just don't know if I can still do that after telling him I couldn't tolerate him going on this trip. I mean, I think he thinks I've given up on the M entirely, and in some ways that is good. It takes the pressure off him. But, then I'm acting as if *what*? As if we are good friends? Acting as if I am his loving wife (although I am!) isn't going to do it. Man, this DB stuff is not the least bit intuitive.
H comes home from seeing OW today. I am a ball of fear and anxiety. This is the weekend I have been dreading for months. Indeed, having him gone, knowing where he was and what he was doing was absoluely awful. I don't know I could possibly feel more betrayed. I'd like to think that he enjoyed himself less becuase he knows I know - but its doubtful he was thinking of me at all this weekend. Of course, that is part of what fires me up - he missed a major (to me, anyway) holiday with S2. It was agonizing to put together the baskets and hide the eggs alone. I suppose I should work on this - it was agonizing because I have an expectation of being partnered, and as usual, when disappointed it means I should change my expectations. Easier said than done.
The good news is that my sister was here this weekend, and her support was helpful. It just about killed me to tell her what was up - she loves my H like a brother after knwoing him for 12.5 years. I did a pretty good job of not entertaining obsessive thinking about what H and OW were doing, and I smiled quite a few times enjoying S2's Easter antics. Now, the next obstacle is in how to act when he shows up to see S2 tonight. I can't quite see anything but a frosty reception, as a warm smile seems insanely fake - but maybe that's the 180? I guess I'm still struggling with my H thinking I'm "doing great" and percieving that it actually is making it easier for him to leave me. Part of me wants him to know I am in agony, and for him to own it a little bit...but I guess that can't happen now while he is in la la land, right?
Finally, I'm having a hard time with a bit of magical thinking - i.e. maybe he had a horrible time and will come home wanting me back, or maybe knowing I knew his whereabouts took away the magic and now he's seen the light, or maybe he saw that she's a predatory witch and wants out now. I'm typing this up to officially recognize these ridiculous thoughts and try to put them to bed. Those scenarios are not going to happen. Period. He is in love. Not with me. He probably had the time of his life, and any recognition that he is making a mistake is a ways - probably years (?) - off. So, oh yeah, after saying all this, why do I think my M has any chance?
I'm sorry you're having such a rough time with the holiday. When you say that your H probably had the time of his life, it's probably true that he did and that he is also now severely depressed.
Addicts (and most of the WAS's on these boards are addicts and not psychopaths) go through an addiction cycle. Taking their drug of choice (the OW in this case) produces a euphoria unlike anything in their normal experience. It's usually followed by a horrible guilt and depression. That cycle repeats itself again and again.
I expect him to be starting to get depressed today, whether he shows it to you or not.
The LORD is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth." (Psalm 145:18)
I just want to say that I think RB is on to something. Although the first day back with my H was pretty great and somewhat of a surprise, by the time I spoke to him on Saturday night by phone (3 days later), he was in a pretty deep (and familiar looking) hole. Back to the TV, work and sleep as the only activities he can manage. That seems like depression to me. I ended up telling him I was having a great time (which was only partially true, and partially an "act as if" as I really miss him, especially on a holiday) and I realized later that my response may have caused him to withdraw into his hole even further. He knows that he isn't feeling so great, and can't even really fake it. But you know, I can't really help him too much with this. If he is in an addictive cycle (which is exactly how it appears) then he is going to have to figure out what to do to get his life back on track. All I can do is continue to be loving and available, so that if he ever does figure out what's going on for himself, he'll still be able to talk to me about it.
So I think RB is quite right, you might need to be prepared for a depressed H. How often is your H currently visiting his OW? Mine is averaging every 2 months. I do figure that in between visits I have an opportunity to keep reinforcing my wonderfulness. So see if you can leave the frosty reception out. I know it is hard, but if you really want your M to possibly work out, your CONSISTENT safe and loving demeanor will be the impression you will want in his brain. I personally believe that some day (I don't know when, or if it will be soon enough) but someday my H will tire of the OW, or she will tire of him, and I want my shot at the creation of a wonderful new relationship with my H.
So hang in there, as best you can. And vent here. I know how hard it is. You know I do. But somehow, one day at a time, I am seeing that there is progress. It is very slow. For us go getters it is excruciating it is so slow it is almost imperceptible. But just take a deep breath, let him interact with your son, and observe and listen (and shut up ) if you can't manage to do more. Are you keeping your solutions journal? What are your goals and baby steps? I'm rooting for you, like a sister. Hang in.
PositivelyListening ************************************** When one door of happiness closes, another one opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us. - Helen Keller
First, let me say thanks to PL for so much attention. I want to respond better later, but I have a few things on my mind from last night first.
So, in MC our counselor sort of suggested that H should be gentle with me, and go the extra mile because I am, in effect, left holding the bag. This made H mad and defensive. He wonders why he isn't getting "any" recognition for paying the bills so I can stay home part time with S2 and stay in our home. Despite the fact that I have said thank you a million times, the fact is, he should be complimented that I would expect nothing less of him. I mean, I have a high opinion of him and would never think he would leave us homeless and hungry, even to pursue A. Anyway, its clear that he wants validation for doing the right thing and he *feels* he isn't getting it from me. Another point of seeking validation - he has several times complained about his lifestyle since he moved. He doesn't have much furniture, he doesn't have many friends anymore, he doesn't have many social activities after spending time with S2, he doesn't have much time, and he doesn't have much money. Well, duh? Of course not. This is the path he has chosen. He had choices and chose to put us severe financial crisis and to leave his family and push away all of his friends with his lies. I haven't said this to him, I have remained silent (which is maybe the most surprising thing I could do!) but I see it as an opportunity to validate, only how can I? Honestly, I could use a little script here. I mean, he wants to hear that his life is so unfair and so much more difficult than mine which is a load of sh!t. Is there a better way to walk this line and address some of his recognition needs?
And about the mixed messages - HA! Last night he said something to the effect of "your life is the same since I come to see S2 at night". I said it wasn't as my best friend and partner is gone, I have nobody to hug me, ML to me, tell me everything is going to be okay, and talk about the challenges of the day. Yes, I was in tears. It was awful. Not very DB at all. He responds by saying (!) "and the worst thing is I don't even know if I'm doing the right thing. You may be right and then I'll have nothing. But I can't ask you to wait for me." He's right - I can't wait around (...except I sort of am as long as my heart is open to him...)- but do you think he has any inkling that there is still a chance to reconcile? It just KILLS me that he would go forward with OW when he is unsure. How can they be so reckless!? He gave me a hug getting out of the the car - first one in three weeks. I'd like to think this is a sign of him having second thoughts, but I know it is just an expression of guilt and sadness, and we have plenty to go around.
Finally, I could use a pep talk about the long haul. Has anybody here EVER seen a sitch as bad as mine that works out? Where H moves out with a 6 month lease and pursues OW in long distance R and *acts* entirely sure of himself?
thanks to all who stop by here - this board keeps me going at my lowest points. erin
Hi Erin, I found you! All of this SUCKS! (pardon my french) One minute I believe in DB/DR and think I am doing good and then something hits me over the head and I want to tell my H that I am done!! All I know is that I really count on this board and the people here because we are all in the same boat. We are all pitbulls holding on to our spouses and our marriages till the death! Friends and family who know of our situations think we are crazy for putting up with such crap and maybe they are right. Who knows?????
I'll be here for you and will offer encouragement whenever I can. Hang in there!
Well, I don't know the ending yet in my story. But my H took a six month lease on a place to live, and is pursuing his OW. And I am not even close to giving up hope in my situation. In fact, I even see baby steps on a regular basis. I believe my H's A is doomed, and it is just a matter of time. Furthermore, I am a great partner, sexy and fun, a great catch. I am scared all the time that my H won't have an awakening EVER so therefore will miss the whole thing that is really available through us together. But sometimes (gratefully) I just can't imagine that it won't work out for us. There's just too much that DOES work. Right now, I focus on two things: 1) doing more of what has always worked for us (laughter, loving moments of connection, working on projects together, etc.) and 2) correcting what didn't work in myself (nagging, displays of anger, bossiness, disrespectful language, etc.) While I have been away on this trip, I have also been thinking of the things in our world (environment) that didn't work for him, and am preparing to tackle some of those. For example, I have too much stuff (in the garage, on shelfs, etc.) and he is more of a "don't collect just throw away" kinda guy. I have been confronted about this stuff weighing me down in my life and perhaps squeezing him out also. Where is the space for my H if I dominate the space with my stuff? So this is a project I can take on while I am "waiting" (sorry, just holding the space for his reconnection to our marriage ) that would demonstrate a visible difference to him that I am changing, and would make my life and me better. And when he wakes up and notices me again, he will see some things he likes.
I think you have a lot to be hopeful about right now. It does not surprise me at all that your H is now away from the OW and your home, and is experiencing that life sucks without you. I believe that he WILL figure out that the OW does not meet all of his emotional needs. You also have a huge advantage in your son, as well as a long history together. In a previous post, you mentioned that your H chose the OW, not you. Read the DR book again. Don't believe 100 % of what they say, and at least 50% of what they do. Your H is hurting right now. He wants the pain to be over, and he tried something. He has no idea whether it will work out or not. And I believe, to the bottom of my heart, that if you don't give up, you will see that his R with the OW will not work out. Anything started with no integrity has no foundation. There is nothing to build a future on. When the A finally comes out to the light of day, you are already on the road to recovery. I know this may be hard to see. But he is sharing with you, and sharing his doubts with you on top of it - that is SO GOOD!
Also, according to the DB coach I spoke with (Chuck) it is not anti-DB to let them see our emotions sometimes. You just don't want to beg, plead or whine. Stand straight and tall, make a great life for you and your son, and if he asks how you feel, tell the truth - just don't get out of control about it. Save the desperation for us. Because they can't handle it. You don't want to trigger their guilt and have them feel pressured. But for them to have an inkling that a wonderful person like you will still make yourself available to him emotionally - that's a good thing. It leaves intrigue about what else might also be available if he was ever interested in pursuing more again.
I have been thinking lately that my H is testing me. testing my love. I think he believes he is so unlovable because of what he has done, how could I possibly love him? Kind of like, OK now I did this awful thing, now do you love me? Ok, how about this? What if I do THIS, then will you love me? and they keep testing. Because they don't really believe they are worthy. My H is terrified of our deep connection, he is so much of a independent loner and protects himself with his withdrawal patterns. He is right on the precipice of running and jumping never to be seen again. My job is to do nothing to make him run farther and to let him know IF he wants to come back closer that it is safe, that I won't make him "pay" or make him wrong. Of course, I missed some important stuff about who I was being in our marriage, or I wouldn't be in this situation now. It is a tricky balance to be so wonderful in his presence that he can't really remember most of the time what those negative things were, or why he left. But then that gives me the opportunity to acknowledge them to him, and apologize to him, which is totally diasarming.
Try to remain positive. Create your Solutions Journal and write your goals and baby steps. I am seeing between 2 and 5 baby steps every 2 weeks or so. Frankly, I am an impatient person and wish this could all be resolved right now. I want to know what's going to happen, and I want it all resolved and happy now. Who am I kidding? This is a several year process. I can see that. The only way I will get a result now is if I end it and walk away myself. And that's not the result I want. So patience, patience, patience. Trust the process.
Your H has not a clue. He is desperately confused. That is fine, to be expected. Keep being great, and let him see how great you are. That will keep him wondering. Give him no reasons to leave. At some point he will say to himself, "what the H*** was I thinking, leaving her?" and he wasn't thinking, that's the point. He can't ask you to wait (but he wishes you would!!) because he already has an inkling that his R with the OW will not work out. I promise you, she will not meet his emotional needs without you in his life. You were meeting important emotional needs, and he is already in the process of figuring that out. Stay strong! In the DR book it says: Do not give up, no matter how bad it looks, no matter how dark it gets.
I can see good things happening already. One step at a time, hang in there!
PositivelyListening ************************************** When one door of happiness closes, another one opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us. - Helen Keller
Erin, sorry to hijak here... PL, what a great post!
Quote: Also, according to the DB coach I spoke with (Chuck) it is not anti-DB to let them see our emotions sometimes. You just don't want to beg, plead or whine. Stand straight and tall, make a great life for you and your son, and if he asks how you feel, tell the truth - just don't get out of control about it. Save the desperation for us. Because they can't handle it. You don't want to trigger their guilt and have them feel pressured. But for them to have an inkling that a wonderful person like you will still make yourself available to him emotionally - that's a good thing. It leaves intrigue about what else might also be available if he was ever interested in pursuing more again.
This is so true!! If only I could afford to have a phone consultation. My emotions are all over the place. I CANNOT let my H see the negatives ones anymore! He truely cannot handle it and he becomes very angry when it feels like I am pressuring him for answers. I believe this anger is more towards himself and his guilt. He is projecting it onto me because he does not want to feel the guilt and the self-hatred.
Erin, take heed to PL's advise it sounds like she's got her stuff together!
) if you can't manage to do more. Are you keeping your solutions journal? What are your goals and baby steps? I'm rooting for you, like a sister. Hang in. 