Sheila- I totally understand what you are going through. My emotions are all over the place as well. Sometimes I look at my H and think that someday we will be very happy we stuck to it and worked things out. Then, other days, I look at him and think 'he will never ever change and I don't like the person he is.....how can I live the rest of my life like this?!'
I so understand. I'm thinking of you.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Thanks for caring and checking on me WCW, I read your thread every day and your strength amazes me. I don't reply often because I can't offer advice on hanging in there.. you definately outshine me in that dept already! Just know that I'm thinking of you!
Heather: GF.. I feel your frustration in your posts. I know our sitchs are diff, but we're stuck in some of the same ways. Want to move forward, not sure if we can, and now there's so much bitterness, anger and resentment in our way, how will we ever plow through it? And then we think of our kids, and know there HAS to be a way to do it for them. I know you understand.. and I wouldnt wish that on anyone.. truly.
Journalling:
I could say so much, but I think I've said most of it before! H started a new job on Monday and seems to like it a lot already. He'll be working normal hours for a change and we can ride to work if we want to. Definately a positive change for us! I find myself wondering though, why this isnt bringing the healing it should for me, and in a way I think it's because I wont let it. I'm in a very bad place in our R right now.. still, and can't see the end. A part of me wants to just let go of the past, never mention it again, move on and will myself to trust and believe we can build a better R and be a happy family again. I've no doubt that many people on this board would take my sitch and work wonders with it.. come out shining. I know I have the strength to do that if H continues to take the strides he has been. I'm choosing not to though. I say it's a choice as much as we decide to have our emotions, because that's what's standing in our way.
I used to look at couples who'd divorce after years of M and I couldnt understand it. How could they spend half of their life with someone and then decide that person needs to be a stranger to them for the rest of their life? I'm starting to understand how couples do that and why they choose that. It ain't pretty!
I've went from wanting to save this R more than anything to thinking it might have to end in order for me to save myself. Not very long ago I prayed that my H would come out of his fog and choose his family again. He did that and instead of it being an answer to a prayer, it's become a heavy burden on my heart. I look at him and think I can't love him again because he's not someone I can trust with my heart. Sometimes I think it'd be easy, but when I try it's like sticking my hand in a fire.
I'm just beginning to understand how devastated I was last summer.. how hurt, and alone I felt for a long time. That scares the h*ll out of me. I don't ever want to arrive there again, and especially don't want to know that I didnt protect myself from it.
The negative said, we still have an appt with the MC. He's changed it twice, but H still wants to go. He said he'll go alone if I don't go with him, but I probably will. I really don't know what I'll say though. There isn't a way to reason or promise me out of the place I'm in. Typical WAS, I'll have to decide I don't want to be here and choose to do something different for the C to bring positive changes. We've been getting along, but that's about it. I don't want to be close to him physically or emotionally right now. I don't like how it makes me feel to be close to someone who's hurt me so much. Maybe part of it is a self esteem thing... how much do I love myself if I'd give my heart to someone who's treated it so badly? It'll take a long time for me to get there if I ever do. I don't know if either of us have the patience for that. I'd like to be able to say I can do this.. but I just can't right now and pressure from me or anyone else isnt going to get me there faster... it's just where I am.
Sorry for such a downer post. I know it probably doesn't help anyone else to read this. It's SO hard to move forward to begin with and hearing how hard it is after the WAS returns home can't be easy for others that are having their doubts. It's unrealistic to think though that the choice to come home is the end of the journey here. Reminds me of the scene in "A Christmas Story" where he gets the Ovaltine decoder.. waits and waits and finally it's in the mailbox and after all that anticipation, the secret message is a crummy Ovaltine commercial. Yeah, he's fnally a part of the Little Orphan Annie club, but it isn't as cool as he thought it'd be! The bully's still waiting in the alley after school and must be dealt with .. so goes it with life. Sometimes we think the answer is out there, but we really have to figure it out for ourselves.
Sorry you are where you are. No one is disappointed in you for sharing it though. I can't even imagine the place you're in. I sometimes do, and frankly, it is what gives me strength to accept that my wife has left and is never coming back, because if she did, I'm afraid I would feel as you do right now. Afraid is the key word.
I wonder if you asked yourself something? Is the fear of being hurt only because of H? I mean, if you were to launch into a new R with a new person, would the fear still be there only with that person instead? I believe it would. Of course, you can be like me in my skeptical moments when I decide the potential hurt is not worth the reward of finding someone else. Going through life alone is the only safe thing to do. Some days, I don't want to believe that though, and I am sure, some days, you don't either. Food for thought then - what would come next and how would it be different?
I know what sounds different. Relief, release, no more pressure on Piglet to do the right thing, to salvage a marriage, to act as if so long that it becomes true. I know how tempting that sounds, how absolutly liberating it seems some days. I won't say you won't feel the relief if you do it. I am sure you will, for now. What happens in a year or five or ten is a different story, one I don't know the plot for.
Hang in there, whatever you decide is right for you. We'll will always be there for you. Keep in touch.
Sorry you are where you are. No one is disappointed in you for sharing it though. I can't even imagine the place you're in. I sometimes do, and frankly, it is what gives me strength to accept that my wife has left and is never coming back, because if she did, I'm afraid I would feel as you do right now. Afraid is the key word.
I've resisted this place and as much as I distrust H, that resistance led me to distrust myself too. As much as I regret these feelings, I have to be able to trust myself to love and take care of me. I've tried to make myself feel and do so many things because I feel guilty for giving up and know the best/right thing for my kids is to have their family together. Fear. I definately fear. I fear the not knowing what the future will be. I fear regrets. I don't fear living without H much, but am afraid I'll forget the reasons it didnt work out and replace it with guilt that I didnt try harder or longer. I'm afraid of feeling like I let my kids down and it being true. The problem is.. I can't see the future.
I wonder if you asked yourself something? Is the fear of being hurt only because of H? I mean, if you were to launch into a new R with a new person, would the fear still be there only with that person instead? I believe it would. Of course, you can be like me in my skeptical moments when I decide the potential hurt is not worth the reward of finding someone else. Going through life alone is the only safe thing to do. Some days, I don't want to believe that though, and I am sure, some days, you don't either. Food for thought then - what would come next and how would it be different?
I've had experience here after the D. I did get into a R and jumped in pretty quickly. Fear didnt keep me from giving myself in that R. It didnt end because I was afraid of being hurt. It ended because we weren't compatible. I can't remember feeling anxious that I'd get hurt or the R would turn out badly. I was mostly frustrated that I didnt choose someone that treated me any better than H does. I tried to be the giver and fixer in that R too, but I recognized it pretty quickly and decided I wasnt going to do it again. Rather than fearing another R, I think I'd lean more toward figuring myself out for awhile and enjoying my life. My need for love and affection would work against that though so I don't know how far I'd get before deciding it's OK to try again. And I might would swing the complete opposite direction and become a taker. Do I dare hope that I'd be able to be in a R with a healthy level of give and take? I have lots of Rs like that.. they're friendships. I guess I'd have to have a friendship that turns into love so that quality would be there to begin with or I'd probably jump in and do the same things I've done in the past. Lots to think about.. and premature. There are four kids to think about... and even the best R for me would be a hard fit for a ready made family.
know what sounds different. Relief, release, no more pressure on Piglet to do the right thing, to salvage a marriage, to act as if so long that it becomes true.
You got it! That's where I am. I'm feeling less guilty for being here too. I don't know who ever told me that I don't have a right to my feelings or to do what's good for me, but whoever it was, did a good job of it. I think I do maybe.. my father most likely. I can remember starting the day hoping I'd be good enough that he'd be nice that day and not find something to criticize me for...and maybe I'd be rewarded with approval and love if I was *really* good. I've continued that in adulthood. Not H's fault, but I've foolishly lived that part.. if I'm a good enough W and mother today, he'll notice and not do XYZ that hurts me. That's a load on him and on me. I take responsibility for his actions and he takes responsibility for my feelings of self worth. Not gonna work!
Anyway, that's about it. Not much changing in the R, but I'm making strides with myself.
H and I had our MC appt today. We've been distant from each other the last couple of days. Had an ugly argument Weds before work and I'm determined not to go there again. He made a list of places he's going to look for an apt, and we discussed it a little. He said he doesnt want me to hate him and it's going that way so he'll give me space if that's what it's going to take.
Went to the MC. He's a minister H has known through basketball for several years. Interesting man! He has a doctorate in theological counseling and pastors the local christian center. I've met him, but don't know him. We just started today explaining to him what's going on and what we need from him to see if he was willing to C us and we were willing to see him. H explained what's happened, and then I did. H explained everything very honestly and there were pauses for me to respond. I told the C how I feel about not being in the R because of all that's happened, that this was our second chance and we failed, and I can't end up here again.. won't risk myself in that way when H didnt come to the plate to help fix things when he needed to.
I was very surprised that the MC called H on a few things right off and told him that he handled it badly.. he actually said "IMO, you were wrong H". Then he explained to H how I might be feeling right now and that I need space to heal. He said, and it's hard to type the convo here! But basically he told H that he has no right to expect me to work on anything or try to fix this and that I have every right to expect for H to be working and trying. He said "you see how this works? You damaged the M, and it's up to you to give her a reason to want to be in this M" I told him that H keeps saying that we can separate, but I need to let him know that I see he's changing and will try again when he's made the right changes. I told the MC that I cant do that.. that if he makes the changes that I'll see it, but it bothers me that H is asking for some kind of guarantee from me. He said he understands.. that I will see the changes but it's hard to know how I'll feel then because I have a lot of work to do with myself to get to a stable place before deciding whether I can continue in the R. He recommended that we physically separate and give each other as much space as we need to move on. Then if things change in the future and it brings us back together, we can work on having an R if that's what we both want. He said we're definately not ready for MC together. He asked me if I'd be willing to see him alone and said he is going to C H alone.. he didnt ask H.. he just told him he'd work with him.. maybe because they're friends? And then he asked me if it's a matter of character flaws and integrity with H. I said yeah, and H said yeah and the MC agreed. He said quite a bit about honesty, sneakiness and hiding things from the person you live with and about being transparent. He told H that he'd wounded me with his lies and with the A, and especially by continuing to work with ow. He said that it was entirely reasonable for me to ask him to leave the job if he wanted to stay in the R with me. Basically, I felt very validated and understood. H wasnt upset and seems to trust the C and understand my feelings more through the eyes of someone else. MC told H that it's 100% by both partners to make the R work and that since I was giving my 100 and he wasnt, he'd drained me dry and I needed time to recover. He said when a person is drained dry, and pushed to the point where they feel hopeless... are physically and emotionally ill, then exposure to the person who's caused the pain is toxic.. the R is toxic and it has to stop because no one can be in that place before long.. it can lead to death.. maybe not suicide, but it's not healthy to remain in a R like that. He sees our R that way and asked me alot about how I feel physically.. is my chest heavy, do I feel stressed, does my stomach constantly hurt, etc.
I don't know how he managed, but we went through 2 hours of C and he agreed with me that our R should be over for now, that H needs to change a lot before he can be a good part of a R, and that I need to recover and heal.. stop feeling guilty because I can't give more than I have. All that and H seems relieved and at peace. Maybe he just needed to hear it from a third party.. or maybe he's relieved that the truth is out there and there's help to deal with it for both of us. I'm definately going to call the C and set up another time to meet with him by myself. He said I didnt have to tell H if I didnt want to and asked H not to ask me about it.. that it's just for me and I don't need any pressure about our R... and again he said H doesnt have a right to expect me to *do* anything right now.
I'm relieved because I didnt get to this place by just giving up. H hasnt accepted that and I've felt a huge amount of guilt like he thinks I'm just walking away without giving him a chance. In the telling of the last few years, I saw how many chances H has had and know in my heart I've given enough. I'm glad that H has this man to talk to and work with. He is straighforward, but not harsh and I don't think he's going to walk away without helping H as much as he can. So, I think the future looks OK for both of us.. even apart.
Wow Sheila, that is a lot to digest. I definitly think it is good that it is out in the open with a thrid party to moderate. Glad you had so much validated and am sending you strength because I know that if H moves out it will be hard no matter where you two are.
I've tried to make myself feel and do so many things because I feel guilty for giving up and know the best/right thing for my kids is to have their family together. Fear. I definately fear. I fear the not knowing what the future will be. I fear regrets. I don't fear living without H much, but am afraid I'll forget the reasons it didnt work out and replace it with guilt that I didnt try harder or longer. I'm afraid of feeling like I let my kids down and it being true.
Gosh, I could have said the very same thing Sheila. The part about forgetting why it didn't work and just feeling guilty for all the things we should or could have done differently or better....wow. I know exactly how you feel. I think that most of the emotions human beings feel are so similar...we react similarly in similar situations. I read on someone else's thread, I forget whose, that we need to stop looking for the right decision and make the decision right. There are so many 'what if' scenarios and like you said, we can't see the future. You and I are both strong enough to make the decision right, whatever that decision may be.
We've been getting along, but that's about it. I don't want to be close to him physically or emotionally right now. I don't like how it makes me feel to be close to someone who's hurt me so much.
And maybe this is how my H feels. Like he just doesn't want things to work out. It's all well and good when our parnters say they're sorry and they want to try. But what about the hurt that's been caused in the past? Where is that supposed to go? Worse yet, what if we don't think they even have an understanding of the depth of the hurt they caused? People who make mistakes always want to move on, move past it. The people who've been hurt have a harder time just moving on.
It's amazing how complicated relationships between two people can be. We disappoint one another, we hurt one another. But there are times when we love one another, we comfort one another....there is no one on earth who gives us the same level of comfort that our spouses do. No one. Yet sometimes, the damage is too great to repair no matter how good the intentions are. It's so sad, it's difficult to bear.
Sheila, I do hope that you can find the place you're trying to get to. I know it's hard to forgive when the punches keep rolling.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
It's amazing how complicated relationships between two people can be. We disappoint one another, we hurt one another. But there are times when we love one another, we comfort one another....there is no one on earth who gives us the same level of comfort that our spouses do. No one. Yet sometimes, the damage is too great to repair no matter how good the intentions are. It's so sad, it's difficult to bear.
Wow Heather. This one struck me in the wee hours. I follow along with your thread from time to time and it is similar for me to following Sheila's. Both of yours make my heart ache because somehow, someway they make me think of my own marriage. Not that the issues are the same or the dynamics or whatever. Don't know why really.
Anyway, I often thought if we could somehow rid ourselves of that damn complication and return to something that was what it once was, call it love or couplehood or whatever, then things would be fine. I bet I thought that or said that during my saga a million times.
But you make a point. What if the hurt is too much? I think those of us here who are the LBS's forget that our WAS felt that hurt. It doesn't matter whether we thought it was justified or not or whether we think it justified their actions or not.
Now the two of you overcame that original hurt and more. You swallowed not only that hurt but the guilt you felt for trying to get yourself out of the hurt and hurting your spouse in the process (excuse me if I am remembering histories wrong). But you have done all that only to find your spouses unwilling or unable to accept it.
In a sense, they are you when you started but in a bigger sense they are not because they have not made the final effort you did. And to continue my semi-hijack, that's what reaches to the inner core of my fear. There is no hope for me and XW, but if there was, it scares the sh^t out of me that I would become like your spouses. In fact, I can see it in me sometimes, holding on to the resentment. In Piglet's case, I'm afraid, holding onto it without even knowing it or at least not admitting it.
Damn, how do things become so complicated between a man and a woman? Why can't we wash it away? Thing is, I think we can, but the washing process is so thorough that when it is finished, the two people are no longer connected.
Anyway, I'll go ramble some more on my thread. Here's hoping for both of you.
In a nutshell, it sounds like the forgiveness, resentment and fear of things not being different is what keeps us from moving on with our S. Al, I do realize this is what holds me back. I truly do. The other stuff could be overcome, but until I'd be willing to let go of the hurt and resentment, healing can't begin. The prob is, that resentment is what protects me right now from getting in there. It keeps the wound raw, but it keeps the reasons for not be emotionally involved with my H on the surface where I won't forget that he's capable of causing pain and go there without some guarantees that things have changed and we won't end up here again. The bond that was broken this last summer.. gosh, losing that is the most painful thing I've ever went through. I'd allowed myself to believe this is the man I'd spend the rest of my life with and was comfortable with that. I gave him my everything and seeing that he won't protect that with everything he has makes me feel like I can't give it to him again. I wish I could.. he's the man I chose.. but every time I think I can, I remember the feelings of hurt and pain I felt and think I'd only be kidding myself. I'd never be as in the R as I was before.. always having to protect myself and keep a safe emotional distance. I'm not one for emotionally distancing myself from the people I love. It's good because that means I don't take more than I can give back, but it's bad because I give way more than is given back at times.
Heather, I think your H is over the top with making you suffer for what you've done. I agree that he shouldnt keep this up if he's just going to hurt you.. he should say he can't do it and let both of you move on. But I do understand the anger he feels.. sometimes its the love that causes that anger because you want to move on and not care, but you do care and wanna stay. You know how that is.... my H knows how that is. It just sucks to love someone, want to work it out, but end up here where we can't because the risk is too big... and yeah, sometimes that means we don't see how our S has changed and how bad they feel for hurting us and think they can't understand the depth of our pain. What we all want is a reassurance that we won't feel that pain again.. how do you get that? It takes trust. Trust has to be earned, but it's still a decision. Maybe your H just can't trust.. or maybe he can't trust unless he has major guarantees. Whichever it is, you can only do your best and hope he's willing to get out on that limb because the risk is worth it. I got out on the limb, and don't regret that I did. I just got stuck out there too long and it became a cold, unhappy place to be. H wouldnt join me, or drag me back into safety with him.. he wasnt ready. If I'd have known.. I'd never have asked him to come back home when I did. I'd have waited so I wouldnt have drained myself dry trying before he was ready.
It makes me feel better that you two understand. I needed to hear your words this morning Yesterday was freeing, but also terribly difficult. Good for my guilt to hear I'm not nuts to give up right now, but also made my heart hurt to know that this is the end of the road for us.. and yeah, I have tried hard enough. It's something I admit to myself, but havent quite accepted. I needed to know it's OK, but I didnt ever WANT it to be OK.. H is the love of my life and you're right Al.. it's not gonna be easy to let that go and move on without him.
