Yes Tim this is very, very hard and I'm sorry that we all find ourselves in this situation. I know you hurt for your wife but this is one area where you absolutely can not help her. She has turned away from you for now. Piling on the guilt only makes it that much harder to turn back. Trying to help her only makes her feel that much guiltier. Let's work on making Tim happy. Believe it or not this is truly what will make her happier. Hang in there guy it's an extreme love wank but you can do it.
Quote: I know when she is hurting. and right now that is becasue of the OM. I guess I can answer my own question and let her come to me when she is ready to talk about it!
And, you need to realize that she doesn't want you to FIX it for her. Most books on reltinships say LISTEN and nothing else. And only when THEY bring up a topic. Be a MAN. and I say that lovingly but I know for me, I had to learn what that MEANT. And it AIN'T being a 'nice guy' or 'mr sensitive' it's being someone that she sees as a rock, not bothered by ANYTHING she says or does. Not willing to whine, whimper or be needy. Not willing to violate his beliefs, values or life purpose to accomodate HER. Someone who stands in the face of adversity. THAT is what a woman wants. Are you that man?
Sure, I sound like I am sooooo macho but I cry, I feel needy and I want. BUT I also do what I have to do as a MAN to stand with conifdence and pride. Not to 'get even' or 'show her!' but because that's where we fell down!
I have found a lot of interesting (but sometimes weird) ideas in a book called "The superior man". You may want to look it up on amazon. TJ has it too. I got a lot of insights from it but you have to read it several times, and each time think about things you did with your W and how they reacted compared to what the author says. It's surprising.
Quote: Be a MAN. and I say that lovingly but I know for me, I had to learn what that MEANT. And it AIN'T being a 'nice guy' or 'mr sensitive' it's being someone that she sees as a rock, not bothered by ANYTHING she says or does. Not willing to whine, whimper or be needy. Not willing to violate his beliefs, values or life purpose to accomodate HER. Someone who stands in the face of adversity. THAT is what a woman wants. Are you that man?
I hear that a lot and I have to say "no, right now, I'm not" and honestly, I never have been. I also have taken great pride in it before. I think to believe that the only way to "be a man" is to espouse all those qualities is to suppose that every "woman" needs to be submissive, give you sex whenever you want it, be needy and many other things that many women are but a ton are not. I am NOT disagreeing with you. What I am saying is that I was never any of the things (well, many of the things) that you say are what women want, and I always had my share of women, and also my wife who married me despite me not fitting the classic mold of a "man". I don't know of my father instilled in me my beliefs or what, but I just never felt I needed to live up to anyone else's definitions. I am perfectly capable of defending myself. I am strong when it comes to business. I am aggressive when I need to be and can function without emotion when I need to. I feel I am a man, but according to your definition, and "what most women want", my having emotions I am not afraid to show, being sensative, kind and considerate does preclude me from being one. Again, you KNOW I value your opinion, so I will think hard on this one. For me to accept this I would have to change my core beliefs and as a man, I don't know if I can do that...lol. Great post as usual, and makes me think about a lot!
Oh, and sorry Tim, this interlude of hijacking is now over....
One other thing, and I guess this is where I get frustrated. The main thing that every book about affairs states is to stop the pursuit, the pleading, the ILY's, the R talk and the op talk. But so few people do it. Or at least they don't see that they really haven't stopped any of the pursuing behaviours (case in point your comment about 4 days). What would you do if a doctor told you you would definitely die if you didn't take a certain medicine but there is a possiblity you'd live if you did. You have the choice. What are you going to do?
Do we expect you not to have moments (probably a lot of them) of despair or to back slide? Nope, we've all done that. I did it all the time - even when I thought I wasn't. There are times that I thought I was being a great DBer but my husband told me I was pushing him away even then. I don't know, maybe it was facial expressions, attitude, a certain way I said something. What I'm saying is this is not some kind of military proclamation. We all lose it - a lot. We expect you to too. But you have to pick yourself up and start again. No just give lip service to it once in a while.
One thing that might help is for us to define what pursuing behaviors are. Maybe that's where some of us are messing up. Pursuing behaviors are calling or contacting in anyway, saying ILY, all pleading, telling S you know you can work it out, ummmm, let me keep thinking. Maybe us DBers could come up with a good list together. Two lists I guess. One for those w/ S still in the home and one for those w/ S that has moved out.
Your stitch is a little different as W is still in the home and you have kids. A great intro. to this is to do something w/ wife and children and FOR the children. I don't consider asking spouse to spend a Sat. or Sun. doing a family event as pursuing (to important for kids). While doing this though you must have ZERO expectations. If she only interacts with kids and not you. Fine. Let it go. You can still joke with her and interact with her even if she's cold, just don't expect anything back from her (she won't give it at this point). Think of it as being with a friend who'se a jerk. Whatever. Each time you do these outings they will get better as long as you continue to have ZERO expectaions. This is how my H and I started back and was probably the thing that brought him back. He began to see that things between us were getting better. After a time, we began to have fun together again (as friends). It's a slow process but worth it.
Cointinue to stop the pursuit until the spouse comes to you ready to pursue the R. THIS is the timeline you're looking for.
I knew this was coming from Deida as I read your post.
I think it worthwhile to point out here, especially since many LBSs seem to be into "either or" type of thinking and anger, that Deida is writing about life for a man when he's with a woman who wants to be with him... not a WAW, though there's some stuff that may apply and certainly, all his points are well taken.
Also, that to take a stand wherein a man doesn't violate his beliefs et al to accommodate the woman DOES NOT infer that we act like pricks and selfishly, just in case anyone gets that idea. Deida's writing about an evolved man, in tune with his purpose in life, spiritually and physically. A compassionate man. He's basically saying don't be p*ssy-whipped, defeated at work, lost. Instead, understand what your woman is really saying, what she's all about, why women do and act the way they do, be their rock and support for that's what they need from us, want from us, and look to us for. A man who inspires her to be the woman she is, to be fully feminine, and feels free and comfortable to be that woman, for which she'll love you even more. To find your higher purpose, and stay connected to your higher purpose, and share yourself lovingly with her.
Is it fair to think that once again, according to this vision of manhood, that any man that would compromise his values (i.e. wife sharing) is somehow not a man at all? I ask because as "unmanly" as I am on certain levels, I struggle with this, as do I think Tim does (trying to get this back on course). Am I seen as a "man" by my W if I am sitting by, basically letting her do what she wants even though it goes against everything I stand for? I often wonder if your average "man" on the street (and actually I have been told this by a few men who know something of my sitch) would NEVER hesitate to kick his wife out on her arse for doing half of what ours have done. I don't have the answers but I am trying to be comfortable with my path and I think Tim is as well. It is a daily struggle.
So would your average woman TMU. I said the same thing before this happened. People don't know what they are talking about until they've been there so stop worrying about wether or not you are being a manly man because who cares what other people think of your situation?
First of all thanx everyone! After getting a chance to read everyones posting it is so nice to have people really care and try to help! This is so tough! I was thinking along the lines of Frank in that is my wife losing interest in me because she does not have the "chase" anymore. There is no more prusuit from her. she has me hook line and sinker! The OM is out there and she has to pursue him, which is exciting to her! (although very damaging) I am going to be true to myself and be the best person I can be. If my W wants me to treat her as a friend right now I will. I will have to base all my decisions toward her as "Would I treat a friend like this?" not as my W! Very hard proposition but I will do it! I will always be her friend because of the kids so that always will need to be built and tended to, but to the capicity of realationship I believe she thinks I will always be there! I am not sure if this is good? I guess I will see if being Just a friend changes anything! Tough when you want so much more! Thanx again everyone!
Tim
my story http://www.divorcebusting.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1049617&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1
Is it fair to think that once again, according to this vision of manhood, that any man that would compromise his values (i.e. wife sharing) is somehow not a man at all?
Consider that, as I posted, "that Deida is writing about life for a man when he's with a woman who wants to be with him... not a WAW"
You're in a specific situation for which that book does not address. Yes, there's a chapter in the book that advises "don't be with a woman that doesn't want to be with you"... but that applies to chasing after new women, it's not about whether to re-attract a WAW or not.
If you GAL, stop focusing on her, become self-loving and independent and confident, you're being a man. Changing yourself for the better because this experience has opened your eyes to your part in the relationship's downfall serves to help you now develop those aspects of yourself regarding where you can become a better, more mature, loving person, which is still about truly being a better man.
I often wonder if your average "man" on the street (and actually I have been told this by a few men who know something of my sitch) would NEVER hesitate to kick his wife out on her arse for doing half of what ours have done.
I did that, but then I wanted her back. The guy on the street who hasn't been through this is just dealing out what he thinks he would do, and not what he would really do once he finds himself in that situation, just like a WAS may have never thought he or she would cheat... but did. So what of their so-called opinions? They're based on simplistic notions, knee-jerk thinking and "either or"s again. Life is not so black and white, it's a rainbow.
You're welcome Tim. Wanting so much more and expecting it are two very different things. I think it's safe to say that our wives will always know we want more but it's up to us to stop expecting it. I think that's all part of what looks like being taken for granted to them. The fact that we expect them to be a certain way makes them feel like we aren't giving them the chance to give us what we expect. We are really taking it, aren't we? I am just waxing philosophical today I guess in the absence of no real news on my front today. Anyway, be careful that you are not just being friends because it's what SHE wants, or for the kids. Be friends because you realize that it's what's best for YOU right now. You should never give up your dream of an intact marriage but neither should you cling to an image in your, or HER mind. I think you are going to be fine in this decision, you just need to stick to it.
