Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums Infidelity/Extramarital Affairs/Jealousy Learning to Trust Myself V

I just wanted you to know that I stopped by and I'm thinking of you.

Thanks Mel. I'm one big sob story these days and not much fun to be around, so I really appreciate your support.

There are two sets of rules, aren't there? I'm sure that he didn't even consider the parallel between him cancelling the counseling session because he had to work and you having to go to dinner because you have to work.

No, he probably didn't. But as he pointed out, he did not cheat on me. I have "a history". Trying to point out anything like this to my H is like banging your head against a cement wall. I do it all the time though regardless, so I guess it must not hurt too bad Humor aside, I can't seem to stop myself from saying things like "This is a one time thing..." And when he says "Until the next time....the way I see it's more like the 11th time, since you have dinner every time you go out of town for business..." And then I say "But you have dinner with coworkers when you're out of town!!" And then he says "Yes, but I don't have a history." And then I say "But last time I went out of town, there were only females! I don't have a history with females!" And then he says "Sure you do. You have a history of going out with females and then getting caught up in flirting with other guys, etc." And before I know it, the merry go round has started its journey.


Hey Bud, it's good to hear from ya. You know, since you're the only person on this board who's met me, I sometimes wonder if you think I'm a confrontational person. I mean, I recall you agreeing with the DB coach that I was not in any danger of losing my spirit. Is that a nice way of saying that I'm confrontational? I've wondered about that.

But I'll tell you what, if a lot of your M problems are your fault, then a constructive separation may be even more important, because if you're contributing to a lot of this, you need the time to clear your head and get better. It would be nice if you guys could still go to MC even if you do separate.

Mabye this should be the new thing I try? Focusing on the idea that I've not been a very good wife, haven't been entirely trustworthy. H deserves better. I can't seem to evolve myself into anything that makes him happy and he deserves to be happy....I've heard that when you start agreeing with someone that they then begin to defend you. You know, I won't even get anywhere with that. Because he'll tell me his kids make him happy. That's all he needs and if I truly care about his happiness, I'll let him be with his kids.

It's beginning to become clear to me that H just doesn't love me anymore. He mocks anything I do to try to get a better handle on our R. He mocks the BB. Makes fun of me typing everything that goes on in our M. He says the only reason I do this is to try to get justification for the things I do, but that the only people that respond are going to be the ones that agree with me. So therefore I'm deluded about what people really think. He thinks its all quite amusing, makes fun of the books I read.....you'd think if he really loved me and really wanted to work this out that he would be happy about me focusing so much attention on our R. He said that I'm not doing it to change myself, but to get ammunition and support for keeping myself the same. His beliefs about why I'm here are mostly false. The partly true is that I have needed others to tell me if the way I see things is rational, if my expectations are too high, if H's behavior toward me is typical. My goal here is to learn to trust myself. You all are helping me correct my compass. So, part of what he says is true-I am here to see if my views are supported and if they're not, how other people think about my situation so that I can change myself. If I need to change, then I want to do that! I want to be a good person, a good wife, a good mother, a good friend. If I have to change for the better to make that happen, then I want to. It's just that so far, H has been unable to tell me how I need to change except that I'm supposed to stop being so selfish, which apparently means simply doing what he asks of me.

I definitely see what you are saying about a separation to give new perspective. In my case, I don't think there is a 'constructive' separaton for my marriage. Maybe for myself and my own sanity, but not for my marriage or for my kids. Going along with a separation is custody. There is nothing constructive about fighting for custody, ya know?

NYS, next time you happen across my thread, I believe it was you that mentioned a book on validation techniques. What was the name of it again?

Thanks!

There is nothing constructive about fighting for custody, ya know?

Agreed. Kids are the one part of your life that you & H will always share. Since he has such strong feelings for them, it seems like another merry-go-round ride.

Speaking of the merry-go-round, when you feel like the ride is starting to spin, find a way to get off the ride w/o seeming like you are quitting or avoiding the issue. Take a time out to cool off and then come back to it after you have had time to think about it and calm down. Agree on a time to resume the discussion so that he knows you are not avoiding the discussion.

Sorry to hear about your crappy weekend.

Your H seems very bitter. I can't say I would be totally different but as others have said to Amy and probably you, I would give anything if my W did a fraction of what you are doing to fix your marriage.
I would fall down on my knees, ask God for strength to help myself be a better man, and then for giving her the strength to accept responsibility for her actions and try to make good in our marriage.
I think he still loves you. If not, he'd just leave. It's when they STOP fighting that they maybe don't love you.
He just seems to need to remind you what you did every minute of the day. That sucks that he needs to do that.
I think someone suggested you change tactics. I agree. You said you defend yourself all the time. Try not doing that. Let him vent and just agree with his feelings. It hurts, but maybe he would not feel like doing it so much if he didn't get that rise out of you. Just a stab in the dark.
I hope you feel better. Don't worry about what he thinks about the board, books or anything, make him focus on what YOU are doing, nor reading.

GH

Heather,

That P3 is a funny guy.

Quote:

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I guess my best advice is probably: Listen to Joe!

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It occurred to me today that I'm not a good person to advise anyone. My M is over.

I suggest you start looking around the "Piecing" forum for someone who's making it work, someone who got their S to "come around." Start hanging around on their thread, and get them over here. I can tell you about things that didn't work for me, but I feel you'll do better by hearing about things that did work for someone.

I can believe that separation can help some people, if it's done as a means of getting peace and perspective. I don't think it happens that way very often, though.

Then again, WTH do I know?

Thanks,

Joe

Obviously H doesn't trust you, and certainly he has a basis for not trusting you, such is just one of the consequences of having had an affair. However, when you had that affair, you were looking for it. This business dinner is not about you seeking something outside the relationship. In fact, your mind set now is about making the marriage work. H, tough as it may be for him, has to discern the difference and not attach unrelated "history" to this dinner function that was assigned by your boss.

Realistically, H cannot forever keep you prohibited from evermore doing what you have to do.

His bringing the affair up again and insisting you don't attend is his way of trying to stop what he fears may happen, of course. But honestly, if someone wants to cheat, they find a way, despite all the "rules" and "prohibitions" and "checkpoints" and 'safeguards" the "innocent" spouse may insist on that only serve to lull that spouse into a false sense of security. He has to learn to let the past go if you two indeed are sincere in moving forward.

Comes down to trust. Trust hasn't been rebuilt, and frankly, with things not going smooth between the two of you, there isn't solid ground for trust to grow.

You can offer reassurances, give him the location and itinerary where the dinner takes place, don't deviate from that, and remain fully available by cell phone should he wish to call and check in.

NYS, next time you happen across my thread, I believe it was you that mentioned a book on validation techniques. What was the name of it again?

"I Don't Have To Make Everything Better" by Lundberg & Lundberg.

He mocks anything I do
He mocks the BB
Makes fun of me
makes fun of the books I read

Those are controlling behaviors. Belittle the victim, show contempt by mocking. Roll your eyes, sigh, and scornfully dismiss the victim. Tear away at their self esteem, belittle their efforts; basically tell them that they're 'not good'. The results of it, though, are destructive, aren't they?

These are the things your H has to work on, and that's why joint counseling sessions may be a good venue to reveal these behaviors and unravel them and for him (and you) to learn new ways of interacting.

He says the only reason I do this is to try to get justification for the things I do, but that the only people that respond are going to be the ones that agree with me. So therefore I'm deluded about what people really think... He said that I'm not doing it to change myself, but to get ammunition and support for keeping myself the same.

OK, we don't have to go into all the reasons why H's view is skewed here so as to answer these allegations, you know it's not as he claims it is. All his arguments against it are superficial anyway, they're to discourage you and tear you down. To get embroiled in his arguments is a fool's game.

So, I suppose the above is a good example of what you mean when you ask, "How do I validate BS"?

"I can understand why you'd think that", you could say. "I'm not perfect, and I make a lot of mistakes thinking I may be right. So, what I'm trying to do is learn from the experiences of others, rather than go at this totally alone. Keep in mind that the forum is mostly comprised of the people that didn't have the affairs, people that look to work on saving their relationships, not the other way around, not people who just want justification from others to 'stay the same'. That forum is all about making changes in behavior and seeking beneficial solutions and making relationships work. That's why I want us to go to MC. I'm told it could help us. That's the kind of advice I'm looking for."

Speaking of the merry-go-round, when you feel like the ride is starting to spin, find a way to get off the ride w/o seeming like you are quitting or avoiding the issue. Take a time out to cool off and then come back to it after you have had time to think about it and calm down. Agree on a time to resume the discussion so that he knows you are not avoiding the discussion.

I think part of the reason I have hesitated to do this is because it is so hard to talk to H. Offhand I know that doesn't make sense so let me explain. Now that we have kids, time is rare. Keep in mind that the only time alone I have with H is at 10:15 at night. Then I hate to dive RIGHT into a conversation, so I'll wait a bit. Once we actually get involved in a conversation it is so hard to pull away, even if the conversation goes awry. I keep thinking to myself that it will be easier to steer the conversation in the proper direction than it will be to actually wait until our next opportunity to speak. There's a measure of desperation in there because we get so little alone time. As far as getting H to agree to a later time to discuss things, forget it. He won't, I've tried. Particularly by the time things have gone 'bad' he's not going to agree to anything.

That's my reason for the way things have happened in the past; I see that going forward the destructive conversations are in fact worse than not speaking at all. So, I'll try to get off the merry go round.

Your H seems very bitter. I can't say I would be totally different

Can you tell me more about how you feel, about the emotions that lie underneath the bitterness for a man? It's been mentioned on my thread several times that if the cheating partner were immediately remorseful, no chance of a R existed (like in perhaps a one night stand), how do you think that would have change how you treated your wife?

I think he still loves you. If not, he'd just leave.

Most people just leave when they no longer love someone. But some people really do stay for their kids.

You said you defend yourself all the time. Try not doing that.

Ok. The C told me the same thing. She said that just because he says something doesn't make it true. Therefore, I don't have to respond. That outlook makes sense to me and will help me I think. It's funny how people say the same thing, but when you hear something stated a certain way, it speaks directly to you. Sometimes the self help books I read are like poetry....some stuff just speaks directly to your heart and/or puts into words something you've felt but have been unable to verbalize.

It occurred to me today that I'm not a good person to advise anyone. My M is over.

Joe, just because your M didn't work out doesn't mean you are not fit to advise anyone. You know there is more to a M than one person...you could have been the most perfect H in the world, but for whatever reason you weren't perceived that way by WAW. Her perceptions and reality or what the majority of peoples' perceptions would have been may be totally different. Your WAW had a lot of her own issues that it seems she chose not to face...I know you know that. So, I for one, want your advice on my thread

However, when you had that affair, you were looking for it.

I'm not defending here, I promise. But, no, I wasn't. I could feel something that I thought was harmless....I know now that it was not harmless. But I wasn't looking~I could have stopped things long before I did, so in that respect, I can see where you'd say I was looking. Sometimes, these things do just happen. The kisses did not just happen. But to get to the point where the kisses could happen....well whatever it took to get to that point, DID just happen. If I was looking for anything outside of my marriage, I assure you that I would have picked someone different.

So, with that being said, perhaps it makes it all the more scary for H when I venture into new places with new people where H will not be present. I want to tell him that I understand his feelings, but I can't do that unless he actually expresses them, knim? And instead of expressing his feelings, he jumps ahead to trying to force his way on things.

You can offer reassurances, give him the location and itinerary where the dinner takes place, don't deviate from that, and remain fully available by cell phone should he wish to call and check in.

I will definitely do this. I won't even have a glass of wine if he prefers I don't. I mentioned this dilemma to the C and she actually said it was ridiculous and that I should go.

Those are controlling behaviors.

I mentioned to the C that H acts this way about my reading and BB, etc. but that I actually think he feels threatened. She said that very well could be the case because maybe he thinks I'm learning things that he's not and that threatens him. So his defense is to act like he thinks it's all stupid.

I can understand why you'd think that", you could say. "I'm not perfect, and I make a lot of mistakes thinking I may be right. So, what I'm trying to do is learn from the experiences of others, rather than go at this totally alone. Keep in mind that the forum is mostly comprised of the people that didn't have the affairs, people that look to work on saving their relationships, not the other way around, not people who just want justification from others to 'stay the same'. That forum is all about making changes in behavior and seeking beneficial solutions and making relationships work. That's why I want us to go to MC. I'm told it could help us. That's the kind of advice I'm looking for."

Would it have the same effect if I left off the very first sentence? That is the kind of stuff I cannot bear to say to him, because it's a flat out lie. I don't understand why he would say that at all. So, is it still validation if I leave that part off or do I really need to swallow my pride here?

Small update:

Yesteray since H had to cancel our MC appt and I have to pay if we don't cancel within 24 hours, I decided to keep the appt and go. On my way, H called but I didn't hear the phone ring. Then he called again and I picked up and he asked where I was. I told him I kept the appt and was on my way. He said he called earlier b/c it turned out he was in the area and probably could have made the appt, but since I didn't answer the phone he went to pick the kids up. He proceeded to tell me they were going to WalMart and I said "Ok, I should probably hang up b/c I'm very irritable, traffic is terrible and I'm going to be very late". He said ok. Well, when I got home, H was pretty ticked off that I went to the C session alone. I was surprised he was upset b/c he didn't act upset when I told him on the phone, he was talking normally to me. If he was upset, typically he would get snippy right away and hang up or else ask me about it right then. When I got home, he got very defensive and said "I thought this was supposed to be neutral territory?" He kept on about why I would do that and how I just don't consider anyone else's feelings and I think I can just do whatever I want with no consequences. He said he doesn't know if he feels comfortable going back there now. I asked if he would like to have another session with the C without me to 'even it out'. He said no. I told him I didn't want to argue about it because I couldn't change the fact that I went, but that I wouldn't go without him again, I just thought since we had to pay anyway, someone might as well go.

Maybe one of these days, I'll do something right?

Can you tell me more about how you feel, about the emotions that lie underneath the bitterness for a man? It's been mentioned on my thread several times that if the cheating partner were immediately remorseful, no chance of a R existed (like in perhaps a one night stand), how do you think that would have change how you treated your wife?

In the course of DBing I realized early on that what she is doing is NOT about me. Right now I feel abandoned, hurt, angry, lost, betrayed, etc.
IF my W would express remorse, I would forgive her. I KNOW the part I played in all of this and I am working on changing it. If she were willing to admit her responsibility and work with me to better our marriage, I would be ecstatic.
It would/will be hard but I would NOT be doing all this if I didn't love my W and want my M to survive this. If my W had a one night stand, I don't think it would change my feelings because all the underlying issues would still be there and I think she would still be a WAW. Don't know if that helps.
In any event I want my W back. Maybe your situation (and forgive me for not knowing the whole story) is one where because of his own demons, or what you did, he was not feeling like he wanted to fight for your M or you. Now it's YOU fighting for it and he's acting like a WAH.
Your husband may be more possessive than I am too. He may not be able to get over the fact that you gave yourself to someone else, on any level and now you're tainted. That is something I have yet to address in my mind. I don't know how I feel about that because my W is nowhere near contrite.
Like I said, to directly answer your question, I just want my W back and I am willing to try to forgive her. I think I can but not being there yet, I don't know.
I would be happy to answer any more questions like this you may have. It helps me sort myself out.

GH

Would it have the same effect if I left off the very first sentence? That is the kind of stuff I cannot bear to say to him, because it's a flat out lie. I don't understand why he would say that at all. So, is it still validation if I leave that part off or do I really need to swallow my pride here?

Are you saying you see it as a matter of your pride that stops you from being validative?

In lieu of dropping validative sentences about understanding where he's coming from, How about this option: to actually try and understand where he's coming from? Sounds like your C may have a take on it. All we're trying to do is stroke H so that he'll listen and think, and move you into a more empathetic, but still strong, place. Ask your C about this stuff.

Sometimes, these things do just happen.

Heatherkins, even accidents have definitive causes.

If I was looking for anything outside of my marriage, I assure you that I would have picked someone different.

And if you were nowadays looking for anything *inside* your marriage, you might pick someone different too. Ouch. Doi. Oops. Sorry! Couldn't help it! Too great a temptation! Yanno, Sometimes these things just happen, smirk, chuckle.

I decided to keep the appt and go. On my way, H called but I didn't hear the phone ring. Then he called again and I picked up and he asked where I was. I told him I kept the appt and was on my way. He said he called earlier b/c it turned out he was in the area and probably could have made the appt, but since I didn't answer the phone he went to pick the kids up... When I got home, he got very defensive and said "I thought this was supposed to be neutral territory?" He kept on about why I would do that and how I just don't consider anyone else's feelings and I think I can just do whatever I want with no consequences. He said he doesn't know if he feels comfortable going back there now. I asked if he would like to have another session with the C without me to 'even it out'. He said no.

I can't believe this, this is such utter BS! You poor thing! This is the sorta stuff to tell your C!

What I get is:

1. He says he could've gone to the appt., but decided to pick up the kids BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T ANSWER THE PHONE!!!! Not because "he decided not to go". Still passing the blame and responsibility onto you.

2. If he had gone, who would've picked up the kids? Was he real about possibly keeping the appt. if it meant stranding the kids? I don't get it?

3. His anger toward you festered so that by the time you got home, you keeping an appt. was all about YOU DOING WHATEVER YOU WANT WITHOUT REGARD TO CONSEQUENCES. WTF????

4. And what are these consequences? Now, he DOESN'T KNOW IF HE FEELS COMFORTABLE GOING TO THE COUNSELOR!! I beg your pardon, could you pass the WTF, again?

Is this not him seizing an excuse to bug out of counseling or what (while blaming it on YOU and making it into your fault)? Right in accord with his evident demonstration of not really being interested in doing this. That's why he turned down the "alone session" offer too, no doubt.

You know, there are things in this world significant enough to get angry over, and getting angry that you kept a counseling session - ain't one of 'em.

Heather, I'll lay odds that his line about his having thought about keeping the appt., was nothing more than a line.

Maybe one of these days, I'll do something right?

Heather, hugs. You did not a thing wrong, not a thing. This is all about him and his frickin' immaturity and insecurities and inabilities to cope, instead, blaming you for everything he doesn't like.

I agree now... Separation is a good idea. Talk it over with your C. The man's got to miss you for real and crash in order to have any chance of getting his wake up call, if it's to happen at all. The affair didn't do it.

Heather,

As frustrating as it is about the MC session, in which you did not do anything wrong, here is my take on handling it...

I think Michelle would say for us to not assume he didn't intend to keep the MC, but rather assume he did. Act AS IF he did at least.

My H was very very fearful about MC being one-sided. Your H I believe knows that you have been working hard and he has been struggling with his own emotions and not knowing how to handle them and doesn't want to hear that he's not handling them well. I believe he is fearful of being criticized. Criticized that he isn't handling "reconciliation" well. Fear that his emotions and reactions will not be validated. And now for him, perhaps, the fact that you went to the MC without him pushes those fears into overdrive.

Your H is being very emotional. All his outbursts, his behavior, his attacking, his defensiveness and offensiveness is out of swimming in these emotions he doesn't know what to do with.

This is a great opportunity to validate. Validation feels a bit weird at first, until you get in the practice. Stop, use a calm voice, think through your words before you speak. You can validate without agreeing. Without defending, without offending.

It doesn't matter what your take is on a subject to validate. You are validating what is reality to him. Not you. So you can validate him by stating that you understand that he feels that now the MC has heard only your version and that he feels the presentation of the situation may not be fairly and objectively presented. You can validate that. That is his fear. You don't need to offer a soln. Just validate that fear. And as the conversation progresses, let him do the talking, make suggestions if he does, whatever.

Concrete goals can be that you will use a calm and non-threatening tone and demeanor. That you stop what you are doing, look at him, listen, pause and think before you speak to validate. That's all you need to do. See what comes from him with this. And if he gets defensive, offensive, or whatever, you do not need to participate by becoming that way yourself. Just validate that you understand what the reality to him is. That's all. See what happens.

Good luck.