Stig, I agree with Corri. Furthermore, I don't see any reason to hide your identity from her salesman friends. Be proud of who you are and radiate that self assuredness. Do not fear that others will look at you and wonder why you're being dumped--rest assured that they will wonder wtf is wrong with her. Look em straight in the eye and state that you are her husband.
If YOU play her game for her, then it's pretty much more of the same. Show her the new, tougher, wiser you and refuse to protect her from herself.
P.S. No marriage falls apart because of one tirade. Please stop beating yourself up for being human.
Speaking of tirades, some experts contend that not only is a tirade healthy, it is an essential event that must occur before any recovery can begin.
I think the mistake that Stig made was in his apology.
Stig, please clarify something for me. I thought that I understood you to be done with your wife, hence the reference to "X". If you are not done with her, then there are some things that you do need to do right away in addition to those pointed out to you by Corri and others.
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Stig... let me ask you a couple of questions... i'm going to go back and look up your old posts, but I'll ask anyway. How long have you been DBing, and WHY do you want this woman back?
- I will explain in a bit.
Believe it or not, our friend CeMar gave me a piece of eye opening advice once a year or so ago... I had been explaining the dynamics between me and my STBX, trying YET AGAIN to fix it all through sheer force of will and stick-to-itness... and CeMar comes through and says something along the lines of... "you aren't sharing quality time, you are sharing space. He's treating you like he would one of his male buddies, sitting in the same room with you, doing a parallel activity, thinking that counts as quality time with you, because it DOES count with his male buddies..."
- Ironic. We are stupid that way. We need direction/communication from Fs. Think we are doing right thing but doing wrong thing. Did you tell this (CeMar's observation) to your STB X? Think x did same to me. . Instead of discussing issues with me, x went to newly D'd "friends," both M and F. All jaded. Lack of sex big issue. Huge stresses past few years. She works very, very hard. Long hours. We had huge EC, little to no PC. Not deal breaker for me. Can always MB. Fell into common trap of "roommates" but much more IMO. Always touching, stroking, spooning, kisses. That's not what I do to roommates.
She commiserated with D friends (at least 4 or 5, all brand new "friends"). Ms and 1 F. I know F but not the Ms. Only getting her version of events/complaints. Strangers to me. Ms all could very well be CeMars advising x. Feels like it anyway from way things started happening. Think they gave her own "eye-opening."
Okay... anyway...
Quote: I'm waiting her out. Lots of R issues need aired.
This woman does not want to talk about R issues because if she did, there'd be a lot of self-accountability that'd have to go on with her... you waiting on her to 'air' these issues reminds her of things she'd really rather ignore. So dump them. Let them go. If you want this woman back... start the heck all over... as if you first met her...
- Yes. Telling myself same. Jus surprised. We're both dark. Have to remind self she is months further down road of detachment than myself. Wanted to get on with her life ASAP, find more enduring love, and that was 3 months ago. I know. I know. GAL. Move on as if. Detach. Eff her.
Quote: Nothing in 2 months.. Surprising. Increases viability of OM2 IMO. Damned her. Tough witness. I have to cleverly lead her as I depose her to get to the truth...and she's very, very clever herself....multiple advanced degrees. The direct approach will not work.
Exactly. She gets to be a perfect princess with this guy. No ugly warts. No accountability. Nobody making her face herself. If she is approaching 30, is as clever and good looking and successful as you say... I'd say she is in the middle of her first full-blown MLC. She understands the power of youth and craves it... she has not a farthing of a clue what it means to be a woman.
Believe it or not, and I hope the other ladies here might chime in... some women do not gracefully transition from being the young hottie to an alluring woman. And it can happen around the age of 30 (did with me). One woman knows she's 'got the goods,' and plays with people (because she is still growing up), the other knows she IS the goods,' and does not tolerate fools lightly. THIS is a woman worth keeping... the former is as dangerous as stampeding elephant in a china store...
- Thank you. This is why I am here. Thanks also to Lust, Karen, GEL, Lil, hope not forgetting someone. I have no compass as to F thought processes, MLC etc etc. Never had close F friends. Why? Ignorance mostly. Exp. was every time in small group of Fs it would lead to R talk. BlechBlechBlech. Not a 'love fag.' Well, I became one. Should have listened.
Single, M, and D men all love her; she does come across very charming. She cannot resist all the new LU being poured into her Love Bank from this new career. Compliments, drinks, dinners, fun. I am left on side of dirt road choking on her dust. But be warned. I am not the innocent. My stress/resentment over number of things caused her to dread coming home after all of the excitement/attention from new Ms in fun locales.
Add to this no sex? Ugh. Thought hitting WOA, AOS, etc. etc. would be enough. Wasn't.
Thank you for insights into F "stages" etc. Keep info coming pretty please.
Why do you want to be with someone who so clearly has no respect for you?
- I will explain again in a bit.
Why are you playing this game of chess with her? Are you saying the direct approach won't work with her because you are afraid of backing her into a corner, you are afraid of what her answer will be... you want to give her time to miss you and come to her senses.... or all of the above?
- Sigh. Get out of my head, Corri. Scaring me. All of the above. Most importantly, though. I can handle an OM2. Already processed worst case. So be it. There are no more tears or anger in this case. Been there, done that. I need to get to the truth any way I can. Friends do not lie to my face about such big issues. Friends do not hurt each other and try to protect themselves over it. Trying to be 'friend,' as Lust suggested. Grinds to complete halt if I am being lied to. Catch 22. She does not want to risk losing me forever (ie 'friend') at all costs. I know this. Said it would kill her.
It's untenable. Either way I will not be friend outside of R, as will explain, again, in a bit..
Have you thought about taking a haiatus from DBing and going out on a few dates (even if your heart isn't in it?) There really is something to GAL beyond working out.
-yes. Have multiple options. Need to be more stable first, ie, apt. lease, moving, etc. Put so much energy into x before split need selfish time.
What is driving the O/C within you? What's the weak spot in you? "If I don't get her back, it means I'm ___________ ..." what?
- And this is where I will explain what I said in above "in a bit" instances.
To finish your weak spot statement:
"...Losing the very best friend I have ever had in my entire life." NeverEverEverEver thought this could be an F. Huge EC...huge (at least for me). She wants to be friends. Can't. Won't. Maybe that will change. Don't know. Why?
I can't be friends with an F who I want to grab and passionately kiss. I can't be friends with an F I am attracted to. Kinda presents problems for her new M.
This will be my biggest loss. Losing a best friend. If so, will be huge loss/hole in heart. Sucks for me. So be it. Life is hard. Move on.
I opted for the long road trip on Xmas day, btw.
- Good for you. Enjoy it. And go ahead and eat the whole bag of Doritos. It's a whole new year to be healthy coming up. Eff it.
Oh... yeah... have you asked yourself in the midst of this DBing... how MUCH have you healed? Or have you been so intent on getting this woman back that you have not stopped to consider just how far you have come... and how much your actual feelings for this woman have changed... have you done inventory yet?
- I have to say this, Corri. Your comments and esp. this last one has effectively shut down the overclocking going on in my head. Snap. Like that. Soft white noise now. Thank you. 2 months, feelings have changed. How? Not sure yet. Yes. Need to do inventory. Need hiatus again. Will not discuss self with self or others until next year. Will only speak of others and generalized issues. Hanging temp. out of order sign.
Okay. Enough questions... for now.
- Thank you. My head hurts. But at least it's quiet now (relatively).
-Stigmata-
The difference between a warrior and an ordinary man is the warrior views everything as a challenge; the ordinary man views everything as either a blessing or a curse.
-Yaqui shaman Don Juan-
...and that holds 2x true for nice guy wussies, DJ
LMAO. That was awesome. HD you da man. whup my ass. LOL.
ok, Im over the horoscope zodiac stuff, its fun for social interactions, but planetary degrade and all that...
Undermined me to her every chance This is actually a serious mistake on his part. It gives her something to resist, and think, thats not true, he wasnt that bad.
AS-IF is the correct way.
XX tastes on high,high,high end. That means your on the high, high,high end. How do you like that perspective change?
They want to feel. They want to be cherished. they want to 'know' you. this is true the following is not.
Said I'd love her even if she became toothless bag lady. She was in disbelief. Said "are you crazy?" Don't think she gets it.
BF says "are you crazy?" I dont think you get it. Where is the challange? She has to have standards to live up to. You have to have standards so she can feel qualified. She doesnt want any schmuck who would settle for a bag lady.
Quote: Said I'd love her even if she became toothless bag lady. She was in disbelief. Said "are you crazy?" Don't think she gets it.
BF says "are you crazy?" I dont think you get it. Where is the challange? She has to have standards to live up to. You have to have standards so she can feel qualified. She doesnt want any schmuck who would settle for a bag lady.
Then she should set her own standards and live up to them. It isn't up to Stig to set them for her. It's not up to Stig to make her feel qualified. It isn't up to him to make her feel anything.
Stig was simply speaking for himself. Stating his standards. That he'd love her no matter what. Doesn't mean he can live with her or stay married to her... maybe it does. I dunno. That's up to him.
Had too long posts, deleted both. Crap, read Corri's post so much synchronicity. also included much More on my x's playtime being over, that I never shared, days before D.
Thought I was being pathetic, and not thought stopping didnt share. Mines over, let it go. Mistake me thinks now. let others learn from esperiences. Here to grow and learn, vent and share, not be cool tough guy.
I WAS AN INFIDEL.
So first Stig if you dont mind I will share a epiphany I had today, that most likely will be completely obvious to everyone else, but for me well I am glad for my sleep deprived, brain slowing, over worked current state.
I have been Reading Nops statement for weeks now. It rivited me. Its been like a crappy Journey song, revolving in my head.
Quote: An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason
I had this prodigious bag of resentment for my x, not 'choosing' to love me. Also a terrifically superior perverse satisfaction that x had an affair, even though I was at the time, technically meeting all of Dr Harley's needs. Not to mentions irritating confusion, and frustration with personal attraction beliefs.
So I am working and thinking about my crap instead of focusing on life and limb. And it comes to me.
I believe that the mans mental state controls the R. Schnarch? says that a woman is a mirror to the man in a R. Biologically they are receivers to our transmitter.
I see this dynamic, this theory, repeated often here, and the phrase 'Ive lost myself coming from women in LTR.
Whats my point?
I added OM to my M. I treated him like a brother, loved him, included him in everything. My wife followed my lead and emulated me. He copied me in certain areas, and her differentiation of us was blurred even more.
She did what I did. She loved him. and the resulting romantic explosion wrecked and confused her, terribly.
I of course booted him, he betrayed me, but not her. she still had the love.
So it wasnt her not choosing me, it was simply her following IMO her nature, her programming, what she was designed to do. Mirror the man/ men in her life, follow his/ their lead.
and I 'got' why I was an infidel. I 'got' why even though I have said I wouldnt let OM live with me again; my anger and not understanding this probably obviousness to everyone else, inside I have been muttering "I set her up to prove she loved me". " I should be able to take MY Wife anywhere". " 'never trust another woman'
Well I could and did. and she came and did what I did.
and all my resentment and superior perverse satisfaction that I did 'everything' right and OM's rightness in proving attraction over choice just floated away. Like a helium ballon.
So know I just feel this very relaxed, understanding. And real forgivness. I dont let her off the hook for her choices and am not going chasing after her with this new insight.
But I did realize a couple other things. First I could have 'won' her back. I believe this because, besides my arrogance, I know attraction. I know her. I know woman code and got loads of it just before D, and I know exactly how to go about it.
Stig if you decide to do that, I will be interested in how Nops advice and if I may offer, mine, will mesh. I did it the first time with 12 contacts, less then 3 months time, a butt load of resentment, and some struggle to control incongruence. But my inability to reason because of insecurity and OM and my Entitlement to a woman who is above biology... (which would make her better then I ) mmmm... she didnt deserve me the second time. LOL. Because Im perfect. hold the hoots and howls of laughter please.
and I feel no anxiety, no thundering need, no emotional turmoil, no need to run and fix it now. Its just a realization. She was waiting, for me to show her the way, but of course is not going to let go of her only chance, the closest thing to me and/or fullfillment of her replication need she has untill she feels secure that its safe to do so.
Some of this realization was brought on by past behaiviors of mine. Things that I used to do, but couldnt this time. g/f's from the past who had mentioned OM, a kiss, interest in dating someone else yada yada. In all cases I would simply not care. Reply with 'OK'. or 'you should date him'. Or 'whatever you want' and then just move on without any reactivity, doing my thing living my life without a missed beat. I truly didnt care, there choices would effect me not at all. It lead to same conclusion every time. previous g/f's loss of interset in OM usually within a day, sometimes housrs of remark.
Why was I unable to do this as-if, this Alpha behaivior, this 'you SHOULD take care of YOU' belief with my wife. I dont know, dont know that you should have to in a marriage, but do know that I created the sitch. Know that insecurity, and neediness is majority of it. Dependance.
I have this awareness without needing to berate myself, castigate myself, or try to own her crap.
Its so interesting. for her, I dont have the resentment, dont have the needy feeling, dont have anger. I am curious what reviewing this epiphany mentally will have, next time I have a withdrawal.
I dont think I am an Infidel, anymore. Now to git rid of that polyester(layer of player) suit....
Nopkins, thank you, again.
so days before D x emailed me. A straight out apology for her actions in TX. I was stunned. Floored. Never expected it. First time. previously she just said, 'I made mistakes.'
She Couldnt understand why, who she was, what happened to us ( what is this a hoobastank song, I hate musical references tied to emotions. They never end. Like smells.)
Also included comparisons to OM, unfavorable for him, like I want to hear that Sh1t. Women are so dumb. WOA. Never got that from her whole R, except a squince just post reconcil, and 1 phone call a few months back. never needed it, never thought of it. Created suprising warm fuzzies, and anger. Memories of chat logs filled with WOA for OM. Caused massive jealousy at the time. (isnt being able to remember eveything you read fun?) poems, love sonnets, net camera, HMMM I remember our videos, what did he get. Mentally put on straight jacket, sent warrior to fight the hydra of self doubt, what to do, emotions, logic, knowledge, OM insecurity, decision is already made..... visualize OM and x making sweet sweet love. kerpow hydra explodes boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. That always works to bankrupt LB deposits. check to see if still in contact with OM. yep. deprive self of sleep, blather like idiot here, strangle warrior wanting to fight for M. D day emotional wreckage, actions speak louder then words, leading to self inflicted hatred later that evening.
No point just relating what happened when playtime ran out. That apology had so much effect on me. Im very grateful for it.
Well see if my epiphany smooths out the rollarcoaster now. I think it will. I feel something different.
....sigh. Ah, the insomnia again. Crapcrapcrap. And busy days coming up.
[quote]HD
:) :D :shocked: :grin: :grin: :grin: LMAO. That was awesome. HD you da man. whup my ass. LOL.
- Here here, HD. LMAO. I knew lawyers were good for something in this world. Here's one for you.
Q: What do you call 40 lawyers jumping out of an airplane?
A: Skeet.
[b]Undermined me to her every chance[/b] This is actually a serious mistake on his part. It gives her something to resist, and think, thats not true, he wasnt that bad.
- Actually, BF. Have to clarify. He is clever b/c he undermined me in positive terms and not negative. Pushed her insecurities. Not trying to be immodest but our looks were not comparable by any stretch. He would tell her I was going to eventually leave her for something better. His rap he honed to a science due to his lack of looks, shall we say and he knew what to say. This is why I know exactly why I am where I am. She was always afraid of me leaving etc. I basically all but made a blood oath that I would be Mr. Reliable via my behaviors, Betaizing self, and having no boundaries for her...was too cool for those. Laid back and self-assured. etc. KilledKilledKilled my original attraction to her.
AS-IF is the correct way.
[b]XX tastes on high,high,high end. [/b] That means your on the high, high,high end. How do you like that perspective change?
- I like that. She did used to joke way early on in pre-serious R she would steal my sperm if something ever happenedd where we weren't together and she wanted a baby. Hmmm, how things change. LOL. [ b]They want to feel. They want to be cherished. they want to 'know' you. [/b] this is true the following is not.
[b]Said I'd love her even if she became toothless bag lady. She was in disbelief. Said "are you crazy?" Don't think she gets it.[/b]
BF says "are you crazy?" I dont think you get it. Where is the challange? She has to have standards to live up to. You have to have standards so she can feel qualified. She doesnt want any schmuck who would settle for a bag lady. [/quote]
- Yes. I see where you're going with this. She knows I would never settle for a bag lady.. Always was convinced early on she didn't meet my physical standards. Again, this is tricky b/c it has to be taken in the context of what was said by both at the time. Can't remember. However, since I was beta for so long it was not an empowering statement. Humorously macho comment would have been a continuation of that line with "...but until that unfortunate day I expect you to be the smoking sexy hot ravisher you are today or I'll have to throw you to the curb so you can practice up with all the other bag ladies."
Yes, I know, it's too long and hard to say impromptu.
But makes a difference, huh? I lowered her persona to bag lady. In second part, I raise her up, offset her with teasing pinch to her earliest insecurity, and color with ever important humor. Hindsight. Sigh.
The difference between a warrior and an ordinary man is the warrior views everything as a challenge; the ordinary man views everything as either a blessing or a curse.
-Yaqui shaman Don Juan-
...and that holds 2x true for nice guy wussies, DJ
/ Then she should set her own standards and live up to them. It isn't up to Stig to set them for her. It's not up to Stig to make her feel qualified. It isn't up to him to make her feel anything.
Stig was simply speaking for himself. Stating his standards. That he'd love her no matter what. Doesn't mean he can live with her or stay married to her... maybe it does. I dunno. That's up to him.
- YesYes Corri. This was my intent. This is my dilemma currently. Argh, talking about self!! Nein! Harumpf. My dilemma b/c I love this woman almost unconditionally. I say almost b/c I've had dogs and I know the difference. LOL. Anyway, I can't separate her from say a family member; one who screws up all the time, steals, druggie, boozer, criminal. They are your family and you love them for their faults, even if huge. Well, she was mine.
That was the intent of the line. She had me. She had all of me. Don't know whether she believed it or not? Argh, not thinking straight. If I contradict myself take it as such.
My inventory is self, self-preservation. My self-respect threshold is in very very close danger to being crossed. I have been disrespected in all of this esp. via some of the hurtful things she said to let me know it was over. And I really don't stress if there's an OM2. I will assume it from the setup I see. I will not, however, tolerate lies.
I had been taken for granted. She admitted such. But it's 50-50 and I forced her hand leading up to it via harboring resentment and trying to control...with massive doses of hugely unattractive insecurity and weakness thrown in.
I am weighing the scales currently and will mete out a decision at some point. I need to winnow the grain of truths from the chaff of lies and I will not stop until I do so. Stop what? Shrug. Caring I guess is the answer.
Argh. White noise is getting louder. I don't even know if I'm being coherent right now...
Gonna hit continue button and think calm mind mantra. All good.
-Stigmata-
The difference between a warrior and an ordinary man is the warrior views everything as a challenge; the ordinary man views everything as either a blessing or a curse.
-Yaqui shaman Don Juan-
...and that holds 2x true for nice guy wussies, DJ
How can there be emotions then? How can there be a connection if you dont cause the other person to feel? What is the point of LU then? Why do we have marriages based on romance instead of arrangement then?
Why do women/SO leave men/SO based on neglect if this is true? Why do they leave when they FEEL mad, hurt, angry, for someone else who does make them feel.
Nope sorry not buying this one. If he wants a new R, with her or someother he damn well will have to make her feel SOMETHING.
Respect, trust, safe, and fun are a few of my recommendations.
) mmmm... she didnt deserve me the second time. LOL. Because Im perfect. 