Nop, I guess I am not making myself clear enough. I DO tell H how I feel all the time. Are you talking about a particular statement I made? Frighteningly, I think I am quite similar IRL as I am on this board. Sometimes too emotional and maybe often too guarded, too stubborn. If I think I am right, I often have a hard time backing down. If I can rationalize it and then back it up with strong feelings, I'm like a brick wall. Now I am getting into some of HP's questions about my own faults.
What I mean is have you told him you aren't opening up to him because he won't open up to you (the real him)?
Does he know this is an issue, among others?
I can understand how you hate this, but you are going to have to make the first move with him, and possibly the second, and the third.
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
HP So you think I am too vague. I don't think I usually am but I may be guilty of some of that when it comes to solutions with H. Probably because I do not think it boils down to A plus B then C. I do not think like that. Way too logical for me. So one of my faults is I think illogically quite often. When I am illogical, I rationalize my actions. Once again, defense mechanism. Probably run too much on emotions. WAAAAY too over-emotional. Another fault. I read people through their emotions too. Not always the best strategy, especially when it comes to H who is so unemotional. If he is acting unemotional I often equate that with indifference, doesn't care, doesn't love me enough. Probably why sex is such an issue for me. It's hard to not be emotional during sex but it can be done. I can honestly say that I don't think H and I have truly MADE LOVE during sex. It has been good sex at times, hot sex, release sex, but not ML. I truly cannot imagine H being that vulnerable with me, even now. Maybe I expect too much from him, from people. Another one of my faults. I am a passionate person and when people don't bring that intensity I guess I assume they are not as interested in me/it whatever it happens to be. So when it boils down to it, I fear I am asking H to be something he is not. Someone who is able to express his emotions quite easily, whether good or bad. Yes, he can make improvements, already has been. I fear it will not be enough for me. I fear I will never get to a place of acceptance with him/us. I fear I will never find someone who will meet this need. So in the end, I have to go without. If I was 100 years old and on my deathbed, I would rather say I lived a beautiful, loving, passionate, exciting life than that I simply made through to the end in one piece. We ultimately die alone. I don't want to have regrets, at least not major ones. Anyone can get through a boring life. Maybe I thrive too much on chaos, the unknown. But that's not really true. I just want what I want and wont be made to feel guilty about it. I deserve to be happy just like anyone else. Nop, you asked in another post about maybe divorcing H so he could find someone else. H and I had that exact conversation last week. I told him maybe he would find someone who was less emotional, a better match for him. He scoffed that off. Says he wants me. That he likes how emotional I am most of the time. That's great for him but what about me. Maybe I would be better off with someone more emotional. Then again, maybe we would clash. I'm off on a tangent. HP, you asked about meeting H needs. He states I am meeting his needs now, other than the housecleaning lol. So do I trust his words? He won't tell me if he has other needs in mind. He has stated he wanted us to be more independent. That is what we are doing. I am working, I have my own friends, etc. Another reason the "open book" idea might backfire on his own needs. I think he sort of likes the fact that he doesn't really know what I am up to all the time. Mysterious or something. Not sure. He mentioned several times that we used to be boring so that is certainly not the case now. So I am doing pretty much what H always wanted me to be doing. The irony is that it may push me away from him in the end.
What I mean is have you told him you aren't opening up to him because he won't open up to you (the real him)?
YES. And he looks at me like I have three heads. Says he is opening up to me. That scares me even more because I think he truly does think he is being open. Maybe he is giving all he can give. I need to see more.
I can understand how you hate this, but you are going to have to make the first move with him, and possibly the second, and the third. Ahhh! Don't tell me that Nop. Making the moves gets old and does not make me feel like HE is doing any of the work. And let me tell you I am way past the first move, maybe on move number 8,459. There is no end in sight.
Have you ever told him that you feel he closes himself off from you and doesn't let you see the 'real' him?
What is his response to this?
I have heard that Marriage Encounter weekends are good for learning how to disclose your inner selves; what about something like this?
Finally, yep you silly chicken, the housecleaning was what I was talking about. Look, to you and I, housecleaning is drudgery that has nothing to do with love or relationships. My H sees it as a direct reflection of how much I love him and value his preferences. This is HUGE! I do love him and value his preferences and so, welp, cleaning it is. Now to conclude this lecture, let me just say this. My house is a train wreck right now, hee hee. H has a job interview tonight and I am stalling on my Afternoon Cleanup. I have a few more hours tonight in which to get it done. Having 3 kids in the home all day long is intensely filthy. It drives him bananas on the weekends when he gets to see for his own eyes how much they trash the joint and then he realizes Wow my wife makes all this go away every single day, aint she grand.
Good luck to you...seriously give the WWME some thought. I think a healthy injection of intimacy would do wonders for you guys. It is a skill he'll have to learn but you have the patience of Job, you've shown that, now if you can just shut yer yap.
Oh Honeypot, you always cheer me up. You're an inspiration! Once again, I know logically what I should be doing but I don't do it because it doesn't feel good/right/comfortable whatever. Maybe my H says the same thing about expressing his emotions.
Have you ever told him that you feel he closes himself off from you and doesn't let you see the 'real' him? Of course my answer is yes. But his response is the same as a said to Nop, looks at me like I'm nutty. And/or will then go into the pc response of how he is working on this and knows he needs to improve, that I deserve someone who can be real with me, blah blah. Trust me, he can say all the right things at times. Right not to be confused with Real or the response I am truly wanting. He doesn't seem to get that part AT ALL. I would welcome him going off on me about OM, about anything! But he won't because he thinks too much, doesn't feel. Can logic his way to any response. His C just told him this last week which is helpful. But once again, he hears what she is saying but can't really FEEL it. Feel the fact that his unemotional reactions are going to tear us apart. If he did, he would be responding, right? So I just don't know.
the housecleaning was what I was talking about drats. Say it ain't so HP. I'm probably putting this need into the "I'm not going to give him 100% until.." category.
I have heard that Marriage Encounter weekends are good for learning how to disclose your inner selves; what about something like this? Maybe something Like that, but if it is religious-based H will not be interested in it. He is OFF religion for now.
FWIW I'm married to someone who in the past always appeared unemotional, very cold....flat-lined as I call it. He's changing in that regard though....but it's taken me telling him specifically what I need to see from him. "Honey, your words and your voice, or expression don't say the same thing." As I've told him before, "you tell me you love me, but I don't hear it in your voice, I can't see it in your eyes." This has changed...it's taken our MC getting him to hear the difference in his voice though. I was able once to give him an example of a time when I could hear the emotion in his voice...our C got him to listen to himself saying it both ways....he could hear the difference and that helped him to understand, but it had to be very specifically pointed out to him.
LFL...yes, you may be on effort #9,000 by now....but so be it. I'm willing to bet your H is trying in his own ways too, but taking stabs in the dark...and may very well have the same take on it you do as far as the effort dept. goes....but you two just haven't found the right approach for you two...yet.
Honeypot is absolutely right...you do have a vaugeness to your wants/needs of your H. I used to as well, and I think Honeypot will tell you she did too. I cannot tell you how much better my H is doing now that he's been given the tools necessary to meet some of my needs emotionally speaking. Yes, I've had to be specific, yes, I've had to repeat myself. I even had to get so specific I thought it ridiculous....but that is what it took. My H couldn't work with vague, that kept him taking stabs in the dark....not much chance of success with that, especially when you mix in the fact that I'd get resentful because he STILL wasn't giving me what I needed.
You said something that just popped right out to me
Quote: But once again, he hears what she is saying but can't really FEEL it. Feel the fact that his unemotional reactions are going to tear us apart. If he did, he would be responding, right?
Answer: nope, you're projecting what you would do onto him. I did the same thing with my hubby not all that long ago, so I know why you would say that.
My H did the same thing LFL, but you are assuming by his lack of response that he doesn't care, or doesn't feel.....BZZZZZZ like I said before, wrong answer! Did you think that possibly at this point he doesn't respond because he knows you are testing him and he's afraid of giving the wrong response? So no response is the safest way to go? My H often didn't respond to things on the exterior, it's part of the personality trait that goes along with his profession....I don't know what your H does, but it could also possibly go along with his. I know how frustrating it is to deal with someone so flat-lined, but there are emotions in there...and it can change.
Telling your H that you want to see the "real him" IMPO is still too vague, I know this from personal experience now. I used to get that blank look from my H too when I'd say stuff like that. In his view he was letting me see the real him, but what he wasn't doing....was bothering me with stuff he thought I would think was trivial, or upsetting, uninteresting, or stuff I should just know....but I found THOSE were the key to me seeing the "real him". He wasn't intentionally hiding anything from me, he just didn't know that's what I was talking about. Once he began communicating those things to me....the EC started coming on it's own and coming back fast. Just tonight I heard "I love you" from him, and I could feel it as well. Give him direction LFL, he needs that from you in order to succeed.
So are you saying you regret not making the reconciliation with your W work? It wasnt mine to make work. It was ours. Do you REALLY think it was workable considering all of the hurt and betrayal? yes, we were right on the verge of making a major step. IMO. I felt it. I didnt sabotage it, IMO. you said He doesn't seem to get that part AT ALL. I would welcome him going off on me about OM, about anything! But he won't because he thinks too much, doesn't feel. Can logic his way to any response Well I went off. She wasnt invested enough in the R to stick around. You are.
How could you trust her again. Even if your ex did everything possible to try and show you she was wrong and wanted you back, I don't think you would have been able to handle that. Thanks for thinking so highly of me. What makes me so different? Not that I am not trying but it is sooo hard.
Yes it is. None likes dealing with the consequences of their errors. All things of value and beauty come about thru hard work and long term effort. I think it was Freud's hypotheses-- a starting place is not going to be as perfected as the knowlege and creative and critical thinking it spawns.
You are at the starting phase. This is a long term effort. M is for the long term. Right?
Making the moves gets old and does not make me feel like HE is doing any of the work.
If he hadnt made a first second or third move you wouldnt be back together right now. Instead of seeing the similarities between you and me, --emotional, stubborn, egocentric--- (IRL noone would ever accuse me of being emotional. my x would flip out to read that. I use this board to relieve stressors, egocentric? I really dont care how I appear to others. Thats lack of ego. In fact I love chromo because of his complete lack of egocentricity here. He is like this apt pupil... 'show me the way NOP'....) you should be looking at the similarities between me and your H, I try to tell you where he is coming from.
Well GEL and HP are doing a outstanding job, coaching you. Its obvious why they are getting the results they are, too me.
Just wanted to drop in and say hey, and check up on my brunette, blond and red headed hotties. better then neapolitan ice cream I have to say.....
Give him direction LFL, he needs that from you in order to succeed.
GEL, I have been taking this advice. I have been VERY specific with H since most of you have been saying I am too vague. I have either said directly to him "I need to hear...." or praised him when he would say things on his own like, "I love your butt in those jeans." "You look sexy." You get the idea. I could care less if he told me I did a nice job cleaning up the kitchen. I want to here I look good, attractive, sexy, whatever. That is what I was getting from men during our separation and I think I craved that when we got back together because I was no longer really hearing it. He would always say I love you and stuff like that but not the raw sexual attraction stuff which is what really made me feel good. Now he is getting it more. Everyday he has been making comments so I see his effort. I am doing it back to him as well, "Oh, your arms are more buff since going to the gym." Stuff like that. He seems to really like it to so at least something is going much better in the LFL household. Still struggling with some resentments but I think A LOT of it was wrapped up into thinking he did not find me sexy or that he did not DESIRE me. This is really changing so I am hopeful.
